ZOS needs to rethink dungeons - queuing as a DD

Nemesis7884

so this morning as a DD i was queing for a dungeon....wait time is usually 30-60 minutes... i get to the top of the queue - have to reconfirm 13 times! because someone declines.... i get into the first dungeon - fake tank - great...i have no problem with "fake" tanks in normal dungeons (was one of the later dlc' ones) - if the people are high enough lvl this isn't an issue but at least have a taunt slotted - which of course he didn't...ok 60 min wait for nothing...get into a dungeon again - the tank immediatly leaves (why i don't know people were all mid cp's) - great...waiting around in the dungeon is no option as finding a new tank takes way too long....

Queuing as a DD is highly frustrating - not only does it take incredibly long but also quite often you need to repeat several times because of some kind of issues.... and yes i know you can "just play a tank" but often people do dungeons on the side while questing/leveling or also do trials when the opportunity arises so this isn't always feasible or efficient....

Don't get me wrong - i also have fantastic dungeon runns with a lot of very nice players - but also these kind of events that seem to become more and more frequent that just drain the fun...

It is also really difficult to find grouups for dungeons if they are not either the newest dungeons or pledges...this situation will probably become more difficult with new releases...

I don't have an answer how to "fix" or "improve" this...but i think this is one of the major challenges and ZOS could revolutionize mmo's if they can come up with something...maybe a tank bot that you can hire...or change how tanking works or be able to get some sort of temporary buff/skill if you dungeoneer without a tank...or give people something like "loadouts" that you can switch your role and gear on the fly in dungeons and back when out....

What do you think?

RogueShark

It's way past time for people to be able to 'dual spec'. Being able to have at least two different setups for CP, skills and abilities to swap between would go a long way, IMO. Not only for pve content, but for people to swap between pve and pvp without having to reset stuff constantly. Then you might have more DDs with a tank spec for quicker queuing that actually have tank stuff equipped if they could flawlessly and quickly swap between two different setups.

I don't like the idea of having any sort of NPC tank fill-in, though, or anything like that. You can already do dungeons without healers, let's not encourage a making even more roles obsolete. Unfortunately for now, your only real choice, as you said, was to roll up a tank yourself or get some friends who wanna run it.

DoobZ69

Hasn't the destruction of non-DK tanks and stopping multi-role builds from queuing as tank/dps decreased the queue times?

How very surprising....

BattleAxe

I have made a suggestion on this exact problem have a second layer to dungeon finder where there is role importance if you need people to play their roles then you would select high importance if ur one who doesn’t mind then you pick medium importance or if u just want in a dungeon ASAP you pick low importance. With this idea you could essentially get groups with up to 4 dps moving que lines.

I did list some things to make this a risk reward system I can fetal upon request. I also listed an idea to make ppl less likely to que as a role they can’t play aka fake healz or fake tanks. This would be role buffs and debuffs. I don’t remember which thread but I listed some basic examples. Again I can detail more upon request

mocap

ZOS needs to continue nerfing tanks (passives, skills, enchants, gear, CP). So there are will be no tanks at all.

max_only

I say increase the teams to five. 3 dds 1 healer 1 tank. There’s 3 times as many people who don’t want to take responsibility (dps) than there are people who want to lead (support). That’s a flaw in human nature, let alone a video game.

Everybody and their uncle wants to be free to kill kill kill, not many want to be in charge of everything else (healing, rezzes, grouping, mechanics, etc). I’m not saying every dd is looking to be carried/babysat by tank and healer, I’m just saying they haven’t incentivized support and they keep piling on responsibility to support roles.

Tanks are fat buff bots, it’s a thankless job no one wants.

pzschrek

Id tank more but there’s too many fake dps, it takes forever

I slot a taunt on my dps for the non dlc ones and just tank it myself

Nerouyn

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I don't have an answer how to "fix" or "improve" this...

The causes underlying this problem are not a mystery.

1) Unlike the single player games, you can't max all stats in ESO. You have to pick a distribution. You also have to pick a distribution of your champion points. And there's skills and morphs.

To change any of these requires time and gold.

Certain stats, CP, skills and morphs lend themselves to tanking. Different stats, CP, skills and morphs lend themselves to DPS.

You can't tank your way through solo content. DPS is what you need for that. So that's what the most of the playerbase is. And they're not going to blow several thousand gold before and after running dungeons to turn themselves into a tank and then back into DPS.

Solution : Allow players to switch from DPS to tank to healer with just a change of equipment. There are multiple easy ways that could be achieved.

2) In other MMOs I enjoy playing healer. There's a lot to it. It's strategic and engaging. Not in ESO. In ESO it's boring, mind numbingly simple and plagued with stupid problems. Possibly the devs have also managed to make a not fun experience for tanks. Could be worth investigating that.

Runefang

Good tanks get removed from the random queue quickly because their friends list recruits them as soon as they log in.

FlyingSwan

pzschrek wrote: »

Id tank more but there’s too many fake dps, it takes forever

I slot a taunt on my dps for the non dlc ones and just tank it myself

This is what I do. My main is a DD who can swap to a tank capable of anything except the latest vet DLC content (vMHK, vSP), this means I can run most pledges easily. Most vet content can be cleared in medium armour, so depending on how useless the DDs in the PUG are, I can still pull enough DPS to clear on my own, while holding aggro, self-healing etc.

For the tougher vet DLCs and random vet daily, I group with my guild anyway.

But yes, there's way more fake DDs than fake tanks, and they make PUGging with a 'proper' tank build a lottery. You're bound to end up with some 2-handed sword swinging numpty and a light attack spamming bow wombat pulling 5k between them, it's just painful.

mocap

... with Sergeant title xd. Daaaaaamn how i hate PvPers in endgame vet PvE.

idk

First of all, it is smart for a damage dealer to put their own group together from guild or zone. At the very least pairing up with a healer or tank is a fabulous idea. It just makes sense. When it comes to 4 man dungeons in MMORPGs DPS role is a dime a dozen, but for large raid content it is support roles that are a dime a dozen.

Second, it is so easy to tank or heal on your DD and that is what many do.

So idea 1 and 2 are great ideas that solve the issue OP has. People can choose them or not. It is their choice and of course, their choice to wait longer. Yes, I know, dps is easier, but be the solution.

Lastly, the repetative "declines" are a bug that has been well known in the game for well over a year. Well known to everyone but Zos since they seemed to have missed the dozens and dozens of threads explaining the issue and that they were tagged in. Somehow they managed to ignore miss all those threads.

KhajiitFelix

mocap wrote: »

ZOS needs to continue nerfing tanks (passives, skills, enchants, gear, CP). So there are will be no tanks at all.

And DDs.

Feanor

mocap wrote: »

... with Sergeant title xd. Daaaaaamn how i hate PvPers in endgame vet PvE.

Well, good PvPers are very often excellent PvE players as well. Of course there is a huge amount of players who aren’t very good in either.

And I don’t think the shortage of Tanks has something to do with nerfs, at least not as far as non-DLC Dungeons are concerned. Tanking on standard dungeons is boring and easy, and if your DDs aren’t good, a huge waste of time.

Kulvar

RogueShark wrote: »

It's way past time for people to be able to 'dual spec'. Being able to have at least two different setups for CP, skills and abilities to swap between would go a long way, IMO. Not only for pve content, but for people to swap between pve and pvp without having to reset stuff constantly. Then you might have more DDs with a tank spec for quicker queuing that actually have tank stuff equipped if they could flawlessly and quickly swap between two different setups.

No need for different CP distribution as you always have dedicated defense points for the warrior.
It's gear/skills that matter

That lack of tank is mostly a product of a few factors:
• Is tank role interesting and fun ?
• Is there mechanics that DD have to handle that make their DPS matter less than playing properly ?

The ratio of 50% DD in a dungeon group doesn't help either.
What would be nice if to have more flexibility in dungeon team composition.
And for each extra DD in the party, monsters and bosses have ~50% more health.
Would allow greater ratio of DD per tank/heal. Playing with more than 3 friends would become possible.

idk

Kulvar wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

It's way past time for people to be able to 'dual spec'. Being able to have at least two different setups for CP, skills and abilities to swap between would go a long way, IMO. Not only for pve content, but for people to swap between pve and pvp without having to reset stuff constantly. Then you might have more DDs with a tank spec for quicker queuing that actually have tank stuff equipped if they could flawlessly and quickly swap between two different setups.

No need for different CP distribution as you always have dedicated defense points for the warrior.
It's gear/skills that matter

That lack of tank is mostly a product of a few factors:
• Is tank role interesting and fun ?
• Is there mechanics that DD have to handle that make their DPS matter less than playing properly ?

The ratio of 50% DD in a dungeon group doesn't help either.
What would be nice if to have more flexibility in dungeon team composition.
And for each extra DD in the party, monsters and bosses have ~50% more health.
Would allow greater ratio of DD per tank/heal. Playing with more than 3 friends would become possible.

Decent tanks tend to not enter GF alone. Mostly because of getting burned by bad groups.

If you think about it, decent tanks are going to look for guilds since the tank role is clearly a social role They do not need the GF. In fact, I do not know of anyone in my raiding guilds that even has problems finding a group when they are in a DPS role.

Looking at my suggestions I posted above, the solution is already there and easy to do.

Edit: and yes, the tank role is interesting and fun. Just like with any game, some like the role and some do not which comes down to taste.

randomkeyhits

I would love if ESO were to introduce loadouts but not as a crown item at 1500 crowns per character per loadout as that would be insanity..........

I would also need to have an alternative to swap to so if they could see their way to making sap tanks reasonable (not even good, just.... reasonable) then I'd be in.

Hell, if they just brought back sap tanks I'd switch over for a while and just tank.

mocap

Feanor wrote: »

Well, good PvPers are very often excellent PvE players as well. Of course there is a huge amount of players who aren’t very good in either.

I thought it was obvious - i mean PvPers in PvP sets, specs, skills/morphs, "rotation". Not player skill itself.

Cyhawk

Why would ZoS needs to fix a player choice issue?

Nemesis7884

I think the best option would be to offer - even sell - somethibg like loadout slots/token similar to the outfit system

fred4

How about keeping things simple? Some of the non-DLC vet dungeons can be soloed. It's rather pointless having a tank or healer in those, but you may want a group for speed, loot sharing or due to mechanics that prevent outright soloing. Why not simply have a mode for 4DDs?

The 2 DD, 1 healer, 1 tank group composition is really only needed for the hardest content, at least at full CP. Even vDSA is best run with 3 DDs and a tank. Not everyone plays or likes to play meta builds. In particular, magplar and stamsorc are well able to look after themselves. If you are mainly a PvPer (like me), you've probably built for some self healing and tankiness regardless of class, yet you will still do enough damage for the likes of Skoria hard mode with only slight changes to your PvP build.

idk

fred4 wrote: »

How about keeping things simple? Some of the non-DLC vet dungeons can be soloed. It's rather pointless having a tank or healer in those, but you may want a group for speed, loot sharing or due to mechanics that prevent outright soloing. Why not simply have a mode for 4DDs?

The 2 DD, 1 healer, 1 tank group composition is really only needed for the hardest content, at least at full CP. Even vDSA is best run with 3 DDs and a tank. Not everyone plays or likes to play meta builds. In particular, magplar and stamsorc are well able to look after themselves. If you are mainly a PvPer (like me), you've probably built for some self healing and tankiness regardless of class, yet you will still do enough damage for the likes of Skoria hard mode with only slight changes to your PvP build.

That is already possible now. It is part of my first point I made. You can form your own group and do it however you want. A great many players do it that way each and every day. It really is that easy and already available.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Here is a suggestion. How about, instead of using the group tool, go on a major city and form a group using the zone chat. That way you will ensure all group members are on the same page. You can even queue afterwards and get the buff. And who knows? You might end up running some more dungeons after that, add some people in your friend list or even form a standard group for your runs.

fred4

idk wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

How about keeping things simple? Some of the non-DLC vet dungeons can be soloed. It's rather pointless having a tank or healer in those, but you may want a group for speed, loot sharing or due to mechanics that prevent outright soloing. Why not simply have a mode for 4DDs?

The 2 DD, 1 healer, 1 tank group composition is really only needed for the hardest content, at least at full CP. Even vDSA is best run with 3 DDs and a tank. Not everyone plays or likes to play meta builds. In particular, magplar and stamsorc are well able to look after themselves. If you are mainly a PvPer (like me), you've probably built for some self healing and tankiness regardless of class, yet you will still do enough damage for the likes of Skoria hard mode with only slight changes to your PvP build.

That is already possible now. It is part of my first point I made. You can form your own group and do it however you want. A great many players do it that way each and every day. It really is that easy and already available.

You can make your own group to do anything and everything, but we're talking about the dungeon finder, are we not?

fred4

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Here is a suggestion. How about, instead of using the group tool, go on a major city and form a group using the zone chat. That way you will ensure all group members are in the same page. You can even queue afterwards and get the buff. And who knows? You might end up running some more dungeons after that, add some people in your friend list or even form a standard group for your runs.

That's kind of quaint and slightly patronising. Most people in my friend list are perfectly nice people that I end up never talking to again, cause that's just how it goes. Yeah, I'm in a guild, we have Discord, but the people I truly hit it off with are few and far between.

The reason I use Dungeon Finder? I have no interest in dungeons. Zero. Neither do my friends, cause we're PvPers. When I want to level Undaunted Mettle on a new character, they're in Cyrodiil. I don't tend to keep in touch with PvEer friends, cause after a week or two of pledges, I return to PvP and neither of us are any good to each other. I'm also prone to playing in the middle of the night, when no one else is online.

Don't come to me saying there are alternatives. Of course there are. That doesn't mean the Dungeon Finder couldn't be improved upon.

SoLooney

And that's why I never pug more than 1 person.

All I see in 90perc of my pugs are brain dead dps, fake tanks, and I honestly dont care about fake healers cause nearly all the dungeons you dont need one anyways, and what gets me the most are seeing pvpers bringing in their pvp builds expecting a carry

Join a guild, make some friends. My best solution for you

Nemesis7884

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Here is a suggestion. How about, instead of using the group tool, go on a major city and form a group using the zone chat. That way you will ensure all group members are on the same page. You can even queue afterwards and get the buff. And who knows? You might end up running some more dungeons after that, add some people in your friend list or even form a standard group for your runs.

You might then as well say why have gfindr at all.... imagine zone chat in major cities if people constantly spam LFG for ALL dungeons

fred4

SoLooney wrote: »

...and what gets me the most are seeing pvpers bringing in their pvp builds expecting a carry

In case that was directed at me, I don't do DLC dungeons via Dungeon Finder and I just as likely carry people in the non-DLC ones.

Ozby

idk wrote: »

First of all, it is smart for a damage dealer to put their own group together from guild or zone. At the very least pairing up with a healer or tank is a fabulous idea. It just makes sense. When it comes to 4 man dungeons in MMORPGs DPS role is a dime a dozen, but for large raid content it is support roles that are a dime a dozen.

Second, it is so easy to tank or heal on your DD and that is what many do.

So idea 1 and 2 are great ideas that solve the issue OP has. People can choose them or not. It is their choice and of course, their choice to wait longer. Yes, I know, dps is easier, but be the solution.

Lastly, the repetative "declines" are a bug that has been well known in the game for well over a year. Well known to everyone but Zos since they seemed to have missed the dozens and dozens of threads explaining the issue and that they were tagged in. Somehow they managed to ignore miss all those threads.

I am still yet to see a fake Healer actually heal anything? Or a fake Tank actually Tank.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

fred4 wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Here is a suggestion. How about, instead of using the group tool, go on a major city and form a group using the zone chat. That way you will ensure all group members are in the same page. You can even queue afterwards and get the buff. And who knows? You might end up running some more dungeons after that, add some people in your friend list or even form a standard group for your runs.

That's kind of quaint and slightly patronising. Most people in my friend list are perfectly nice people that I end up never talking to again, cause that's just how it goes. Yeah, I'm in a guild, we have Discord, but the people I truly hit it off with are few and far between.

The reason I use Dungeon Finder? I have no interest in dungeons. Zero. Neither do my friends, cause we're PvPers. When I want to level Undaunted Mettle on a new character, they're in Cyrodiil. I don't tend to keep in touch with PvEer friends, cause after a week or two of pledges, I return to PvP and neither of us are any good to each other. I'm also prone to playing in the middle of the night, when no one else is online.

Don't come to me saying there are alternatives. Of course there are. That doesn't mean the Dungeon Finder couldn't be improved upon.

It was not meant that way. It was also not meant for you. I was replying to the op. But apparently it's about you now.

fred4

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

Here is a suggestion. How about, instead of using the group tool, go on a major city and form a group using the zone chat. That way you will ensure all group members are on the same page. You can even queue afterwards and get the buff. And who knows? You might end up running some more dungeons after that, add some people in your friend list or even form a standard group for your runs.

You might then as well say why have gfindr at all.... imagine zone chat in major cities if people constantly spam LFG for ALL dungeons

Errrr, they do do that at the Undaunted enclaves. At least they used to. I don't know anymore. My zone chat is frequently turned off to avoid those huge guild recruiting messages.