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Khajiit: Critical Chance vs Critical Damage
muh
✭✭✭
Heya!
First of all, I am not here to argue if the change made Khajiit a better or worse damage dealer. This post is not intended to demand change. While I strongly prefer Critical Chance and would like to have it back, I expect ZOS to stick to their decision. Overall I'm happy they made it viable™ to play Magicka Khajiit.
Up until now and for the forseeable future I will continue to play Stamina, though.
A picture is worth more than words, so lets start with a little chart.
This simple chart highlights how Critical Damage affects your "Effective Damage" with fixed Critical Chance levels.
To put it in numbers, on one end, with 10% Critical Chance you gain about 7% Effective Damage when you go from 50% Critical Damage to 125% Critical Damage.
On the other end, with 90% Critical Chance going from 50% Critical Damage to 125% Critical Damage you gain about 32% Effective Damage.
It's quite rare to have 90% Critical Chance, but 10% is fairly common for tanks and healer builds.
So let's look at how much Effective Damage we would gain at 10%, 50% and 75% Critical Chance when we increase our Critical Damage / Healing from 50% base to 60% with the new Khajiit passive.
In comparision, the initial change planned for Khajiit was to give them Spell Critical Chance in addition to Weapon Critical Chance with Wrathstone. So lets look at how much we would get with 50% Critical Damage and increasing Critical Chance by +8%.
But now it looks like you're only getting about half as much of an increase in Effective Damage when you're already investing into Critical Chance. That sucks, right?
No it doesn't. Unless you're a healer, then the new Khajiit racial is the only source for Critical Healing I am aware of. Edit: To be fair, though, as pointed out in the comments you're more likely sitting at aroud 30% Critcal Chance as a healer. With this in mind the difference between +Critical Damage vs +Critical Chance shrinks down to just about 1%.
If you're a damage dealer you most likely get 10% Critical Damage with Minor Force from an ability (e.g. Channeled Acceleration or Trap Beast).
You most likely will have some investment into Critical Damage via Champion Points (about 20%).
With Wrathstone ZOS also buffed the Shadow Mundus, which is a pretty compelling option and gives another (about) 20% Critical Damage with seven Divine traits on your armor.
Adding these bonuses up gives 50% additional Critical Damage on top of the 50% Base Critical Damage. Lets look at it again but with 100% Critical Damage now.
With 10% Critical Chance
Compared to the values with 50% Critical Damage we can see that it also gives less and less of an increase if you invest more and more into it. This is true for everything actually. If you have a lot of Weapon / Spell Damage or a lot of Stamina / Magicka getting more gives less and less of an increase per point (Diminishing Returns). So in general you want to balance your stats to some degree to maximize your damage.
When we look at +10% Critical Damage vs +8% Critical Chance at 75% Critical Chance with 100% Critical Damage, the gain we get is fairly close together. This is the reason why Khajiit Stamina damage dealer are mostly unaffected with current meta setup.
With the groundwork out of the way, lets look at the Developer Comment from the 4.3.5 patch notes about the Khajiit change. Maybe we can figure out why they deemed it necessary to change it to Critical Damage.
Their passives do indeed affect all builds, it's just that at least one is very underwhelming for non-damage roles.
They're absolutely not the best healer or tank. They are not the best damage dealer, neither for Magicka nor Stamina.
Khajiit were not the best Stamina damage dealer with Weapon Critical Chance, so they didn't make the change to Critical Damage because they suddenly overperformed with the added flat stats.
Unfortunately we can't say if they would have overperformed for Magicka with Spell Critical Chance, because they changed the passive to Critical Damage in the same PTS patch that finally fixed resource scaling with Champion Points. All tests done with Spell Critical Chance were not using the final resource values available to every race.
However what we can do is look at it from a purely theoretical perspective on paper.
To do that, I have calculated a Base Damage for every race accounting for their racial passives and multiplied that with
Non-Khajiit:
Stamina Khajiit:
For Magicka, outside of PTS, Khajiit never had an "Old" passive, in this case I mean if the old +8% Critical Chance would apply to Spells as well.
Magicka Khajiit:
Only racial differences decide where each race sits in the charts here.
Orc, Altmer and Dunmer all provide the largest flat bonus to Stamina/Magicka and Weapon/Spell Damage, so they sit at the top comfortably.
Followed by Khajiit, for Stamina builds only with Shadow Mundus, though. With Thief Mundus we can see the diminishing returns at work.
But this doesn't do some races justice, especially Bosmer, Imperial, Redguard and Breton. They're all sustain races and can use blue food instead of purple or gold, which gives them an additional 1774 to their Stamina/Magicka pool (over gold food, they gain more over purple food).
With racial appropriate food buffs, Orc, Altmer and Dunmer remain at the top, the gap to the other races closed a bit, though.
On the Magicka side Breton was able to surpass Khajiit in most cases, and is pretty much on par with Old Khajiit with Shadow Mundus.
For Stamina builds Khajiit dropped to the bottom of the charts in every case.
So why is that?
The reason is fairly simple. Every other race has a higher base damage. If you use an ability that deals 4500 damage on Khajiit and you deal 110% Critical Damage on a critical strike, that's still only 9450 damage. If you use the same ability on an Orc it deals 5000 damage and with a Critical Strike with 100% Critical Damage, it deals 10000 damage.
So while Khajiit deal +10% more damage with Critical Strikes, at the end of the day they deal 5.5% less damage with it.
At least in this thought experiment Khajiit wouldn't have overperformed with Spell Critical Chance either.
The last thing left to look at is if there is a significant disparity between PvE and PvP. I'll only look at non-CP environments for this.
In PvP you usually run some form of Critical Resistance. If we assume that everyone is just using seven Impenetrable traits on their armor they have 26.5% reduced Critical Damage taken.
Lets also assume that everyone is using at least Minor Force for +10% Critical Damage.
So we end up with 33.5% Critical Damage Taken. If we assume 40% Critical Strike chance for a PvP build the difference between Khajiit with Critical Damage vs Critical Chance is just about 1.1% in favour of Critical Damage.
What I can tell you, though. Critical Damage is useful to Nightblades with their 100% Critical Chance from cloak, whereas Critical Chance as a passive was wasted. However that didn't stop people from playing Khajiit Nightblades in PvP before Wrathstone.
I also have no idea what they really mean with a "very polarizing disparity". So... let's leave it at that.
Something more subjective to end with:
I mentioned in a feedback thread for the PTS that Critical Damage feels worse. Without knowing anything about the nitty gritty details of ESO damage calculations, how much do you gain from 10% Critical Damage? How much Critical Damage do you have to begin with?
With +8% Critical Chance I easily know that I will deal +8% critical strikes.
Passives should be easily understood, which is not the case with Critical Damage.
As shown in the chart in the beginning Critical Damage is pretty useless unless you're heavily invested into Critical Chance. Which shouldn't be the case for a racial passive, which is also unique to Khajiit. Every other racial passive has a very obvious effect.
Which also brings me to something Alcast said on his stream. You can't find Critical Damage on your character sheet nor anywhere else in the game (without Addons). I just know it is 50% base Critical Damage, because I looked it up so long ago.
Lastly, I did look through various wiki histories and to me it seems like Critical Damage was never a passive Khajiit had during the released period of ESO. They did have a Weapon Critical Chance + Critical Damage passive at the end of beta, though.
Now let me end with a question:
Is it fair to call something "their original passive" if it never went live to begin with? What was the reason they changed it to Weapon Critical Chance before launch (or maybe shortly after?), and why is it a good idea to give it to them now?
Thanks for reading!
Edited by muh on February 28, 2019 4:11PM First of all, I am not here to argue if the change made Khajiit a better or worse damage dealer. This post is not intended to demand change. While I strongly prefer Critical Chance and would like to have it back, I expect ZOS to stick to their decision. Overall I'm happy they made it viable™ to play Magicka Khajiit.
Up until now and for the forseeable future I will continue to play Stamina, though.
A picture is worth more than words, so lets start with a little chart.
This simple chart highlights how Critical Damage affects your "Effective Damage" with fixed Critical Chance levels.
- 10% Critical Chance - Base Critical Chance without any investment into it. (blue line)
- 50% Crirical Chance - What I consider fair to use for Magicka comparisions. (red line)
- 75% Critical Chance - What I consider fair for Stamina comparisions (yellow line)
- 90% Critical Chance - Now you really just want to compensate for something. (green line)
To put it in numbers, on one end, with 10% Critical Chance you gain about 7% Effective Damage when you go from 50% Critical Damage to 125% Critical Damage.
On the other end, with 90% Critical Chance going from 50% Critical Damage to 125% Critical Damage you gain about 32% Effective Damage.
It's quite rare to have 90% Critical Chance, but 10% is fairly common for tanks and healer builds.
So let's look at how much Effective Damage we would gain at 10%, 50% and 75% Critical Chance when we increase our Critical Damage / Healing from 50% base to 60% with the new Khajiit passive.
- With 10% Critical Chance we're talking about an increase of about 1%.
- With 50% Critical Chance we're getting about 4% increased Effective Damage.
- With 75% Critical Chance it's an increase of about 5.5%.
In comparision, the initial change planned for Khajiit was to give them Spell Critical Chance in addition to Weapon Critical Chance with Wrathstone. So lets look at how much we would get with 50% Critical Damage and increasing Critical Chance by +8%.
- Going from 10% to 18% Critical Chance gives us an increase of about 3.7%.
- From 50% to 58% Critical Chance yields about 3.1%.
- And from 75% to 83% Critical Chance increases Effective Damage by about 2.8%.
But now it looks like you're only getting about half as much of an increase in Effective Damage when you're already investing into Critical Chance. That sucks, right?
No it doesn't. Unless you're a healer, then the new Khajiit racial is the only source for Critical Healing I am aware of. Edit: To be fair, though, as pointed out in the comments you're more likely sitting at aroud 30% Critcal Chance as a healer. With this in mind the difference between +Critical Damage vs +Critical Chance shrinks down to just about 1%.
If you're a damage dealer you most likely get 10% Critical Damage with Minor Force from an ability (e.g. Channeled Acceleration or Trap Beast).
You most likely will have some investment into Critical Damage via Champion Points (about 20%).
With Wrathstone ZOS also buffed the Shadow Mundus, which is a pretty compelling option and gives another (about) 20% Critical Damage with seven Divine traits on your armor.
Adding these bonuses up gives 50% additional Critical Damage on top of the 50% Base Critical Damage. Lets look at it again but with 100% Critical Damage now.
With 10% Critical Chance
- going to 18% Critical Chance gives 7.3% Effective Damage,
- going to 110% Critical Damage gives 0.9% Effective Damage.
- going to 58% Critical Chance gives 5.3% Effective Damage,
- going to 110% Critical Damage gives 3.3% Effective Damage.
- going to 83% Critical Chance gives 4.6% Effective Damage,
- going to 110% Critical Damage gives 4.3% Effective Damage.
Compared to the values with 50% Critical Damage we can see that it also gives less and less of an increase if you invest more and more into it. This is true for everything actually. If you have a lot of Weapon / Spell Damage or a lot of Stamina / Magicka getting more gives less and less of an increase per point (Diminishing Returns). So in general you want to balance your stats to some degree to maximize your damage.
When we look at +10% Critical Damage vs +8% Critical Chance at 75% Critical Chance with 100% Critical Damage, the gain we get is fairly close together. This is the reason why Khajiit Stamina damage dealer are mostly unaffected with current meta setup.
With the groundwork out of the way, lets look at the Developer Comment from the 4.3.5 patch notes about the Khajiit change. Maybe we can figure out why they deemed it necessary to change it to Critical Damage.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »The Khajiit racial bonuses were the most under budget in terms of our stat density system, and as such, we wanted to make improvements on what they offered without making them the absolute best at one thing. Since the Khajiiti race has a lot of diversity ingrained in their culture, we wanted to capture the essence of that across the board by introducing a moderate bonus to all Max stats and recoveries, rather than just Stamina based ones. On top of this, we’ve reworked their Weapon Critical Chance bonus to their original passive, Critical Hit Damage, and allowed this bonus to affect Healing to help their bonuses affect all builds. By reverting the Chance into Damage and Healing, we can have a finer balance between all gameplay experiences since Critical Chance has a very polarizing disparity of performance between PvE and PvP engagements.
- don't make them the absolute best at one thing
- diversify what they can do
- make their passives affect all builds
- remove disparity between PvE and PvP
Their passives do indeed affect all builds, it's just that at least one is very underwhelming for non-damage roles.
They're absolutely not the best healer or tank. They are not the best damage dealer, neither for Magicka nor Stamina.
Khajiit were not the best Stamina damage dealer with Weapon Critical Chance, so they didn't make the change to Critical Damage because they suddenly overperformed with the added flat stats.
Unfortunately we can't say if they would have overperformed for Magicka with Spell Critical Chance, because they changed the passive to Critical Damage in the same PTS patch that finally fixed resource scaling with Champion Points. All tests done with Spell Critical Chance were not using the final resource values available to every race.
However what we can do is look at it from a purely theoretical perspective on paper.
To do that, I have calculated a Base Damage for every race accounting for their racial passives and multiplied that with
Non-Khajiit:
- Stamina: 75% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force),
- Magicka: 58% Critical Chance (Thief Mundus), 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force).
Stamina Khajiit:
- New Khajiit (Shadow) - 75% Critical Chance, 125% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit passive)
- Old Khajiit (Shadow) - 83% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
- New Khajiit (Thief) - 86% Critical Chance, 105% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit)
- Old Khajiit (Thief) - 94% Critical Chance, 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
For Magicka, outside of PTS, Khajiit never had an "Old" passive, in this case I mean if the old +8% Critical Chance would apply to Spells as well.
Magicka Khajiit:
- New Khajiit (Shadow) - 50% Critical Chance, 125% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit passive)
- Old Khajiit (Shadow) - 58% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
- New Khajiit (Thief) - 61% Critical Chance, 105% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit)
- Old Khajiit (Thief) - 69% Critical Chance, 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
Only racial differences decide where each race sits in the charts here.
Orc, Altmer and Dunmer all provide the largest flat bonus to Stamina/Magicka and Weapon/Spell Damage, so they sit at the top comfortably.
Followed by Khajiit, for Stamina builds only with Shadow Mundus, though. With Thief Mundus we can see the diminishing returns at work.
But this doesn't do some races justice, especially Bosmer, Imperial, Redguard and Breton. They're all sustain races and can use blue food instead of purple or gold, which gives them an additional 1774 to their Stamina/Magicka pool (over gold food, they gain more over purple food).
With racial appropriate food buffs, Orc, Altmer and Dunmer remain at the top, the gap to the other races closed a bit, though.
On the Magicka side Breton was able to surpass Khajiit in most cases, and is pretty much on par with Old Khajiit with Shadow Mundus.
For Stamina builds Khajiit dropped to the bottom of the charts in every case.
So why is that?
The reason is fairly simple. Every other race has a higher base damage. If you use an ability that deals 4500 damage on Khajiit and you deal 110% Critical Damage on a critical strike, that's still only 9450 damage. If you use the same ability on an Orc it deals 5000 damage and with a Critical Strike with 100% Critical Damage, it deals 10000 damage.
So while Khajiit deal +10% more damage with Critical Strikes, at the end of the day they deal 5.5% less damage with it.
At least in this thought experiment Khajiit wouldn't have overperformed with Spell Critical Chance either.
The last thing left to look at is if there is a significant disparity between PvE and PvP. I'll only look at non-CP environments for this.
In PvP you usually run some form of Critical Resistance. If we assume that everyone is just using seven Impenetrable traits on their armor they have 26.5% reduced Critical Damage taken.
Lets also assume that everyone is using at least Minor Force for +10% Critical Damage.
So we end up with 33.5% Critical Damage Taken. If we assume 40% Critical Strike chance for a PvP build the difference between Khajiit with Critical Damage vs Critical Chance is just about 1.1% in favour of Critical Damage.
What I can tell you, though. Critical Damage is useful to Nightblades with their 100% Critical Chance from cloak, whereas Critical Chance as a passive was wasted. However that didn't stop people from playing Khajiit Nightblades in PvP before Wrathstone.
I also have no idea what they really mean with a "very polarizing disparity". So... let's leave it at that.
Something more subjective to end with:
I mentioned in a feedback thread for the PTS that Critical Damage feels worse. Without knowing anything about the nitty gritty details of ESO damage calculations, how much do you gain from 10% Critical Damage? How much Critical Damage do you have to begin with?
With +8% Critical Chance I easily know that I will deal +8% critical strikes.
Passives should be easily understood, which is not the case with Critical Damage.
As shown in the chart in the beginning Critical Damage is pretty useless unless you're heavily invested into Critical Chance. Which shouldn't be the case for a racial passive, which is also unique to Khajiit. Every other racial passive has a very obvious effect.
Which also brings me to something Alcast said on his stream. You can't find Critical Damage on your character sheet nor anywhere else in the game (without Addons). I just know it is 50% base Critical Damage, because I looked it up so long ago.
Lastly, I did look through various wiki histories and to me it seems like Critical Damage was never a passive Khajiit had during the released period of ESO. They did have a Weapon Critical Chance + Critical Damage passive at the end of beta, though.
Now let me end with a question:
Is it fair to call something "their original passive" if it never went live to begin with? What was the reason they changed it to Weapon Critical Chance before launch (or maybe shortly after?), and why is it a good idea to give it to them now?
Thanks for reading!
18
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karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Now let me end with a question:
Is it fair to call something "their original passive" if it never went live to begin with? What was the reason they changed it to Weapon Critical Chance before launch (or maybe shortly after?), and why is it a good idea to give it to them now?
Great post, very thorough.
as to what you said above, it's obvious they included that comment to "wag the cat" as it were; an attempt to lend legitimacy to an unresearched, poorly conceived and otherwise inexcusable modification that was inflicted on khajiit with neither comment nor necessity.PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.4 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Of course this will never get considered, because, you know, logic and math. You need to bold the important parts. maybe have a tldr summary, for the short-attention-span viewers
Edited by karthrag_inak on February 27, 2019 10:04PMPC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.3 -
muh✭✭✭TL;DR: Spell / Weapon Critical Chance would have been fine and would be more beneficial to every Khajiit, not just damage dealer. Khajiit most likely wouldn't have outperformed Altmer as magicka damage dealer, either. Critical Healing is most likely absolutely useless if you want to heal on Khajiit.
To be fair, I should have made this post with 4.3.3 on the PTS, but I was busy quantifying racial passives into set bonus values. Also, after people said that with the meta setup Critical Damage over Critical Chance didn't change much for stamina the initial outrage was gone in no time. Why would ZOS care if no one else cared. Problem solved I suppose.
This has been mostly for me, as I said going into this I don't expect to see anything changed. Personally I also feel like everything is important, so yea... Maybe I'll go over it another time and highlight a few parts.3 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That's a great post highlighting the fundamental issue with khajiit's racial passive. I do hope ZOS will pay attention to that.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn5 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nice analysis, though a couple small points. When comparing races you should assume Breton will use an additional spell damage enchantment on their jewellery, and healer’s crit rating is usually around 30%.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Very thorough and well conducted. Good job putting this together.
One thing I think is important to note though is that a lot of your data makes the assumption that the shadow mundus will be run, which devalues the effectiveness of the Khajit critical damage passive.
As is the case with everything in this game, there are diminishing returns in critical damage. That is to say that the more crit damage you stack, the less you will get out of the added increment.
I think the largest benefit of the Khajit critical damage passive is that it allows you spec some resources out of critical damage (ie mundus), and instead place those resources into something that can complement it to its fullest potential - like critical chance.
If, instead of running the shadow mundus, a Khajit ran the thief mundus, I'm sure a greater benefit of the new critical damage will be observed.
Analyzing the effectiveness of the new Khajit while making the assumption that the shadow mundus will be run is probably the best way to go about minimizing the effectiveness of the new passive. The redundancy of stacking too heavily into one stat becomes evident, and drastically limits the damage potential of the bonus. The same thing would happen to the old Khajit (with crit chance) if you ran the thief mundus.
This bonus isn't meant to be stacked as high as possible with all other sources of critical damage in the game. Like with all things in this game (and MMOs in general, really), a happy balance between critical damage/critical chance/raw damage potential must be found in order to maximize results.
Edit: I feel a more fair study would have been comparing old Khajit with shadow mundus against new Khajit with thief mundus, versus both old and new Khajit with shadow mundus where the new Khajit is at a clear disadvantage.Edited by twing1_ on February 28, 2019 7:06AM1 -
muh✭✭✭Nice analysis, though a couple small points. When comparing races you should assume Breton will use an additional spell damage enchantment on their jewellery, and healer’s crit rating is usually around 30%.
Good point about healer. I really forgot about Major Prophecy for them.
About the Spell Damage enchantments, I compared all of them with 3 Spell Damage enchants already. As I wrote (hinted at) going into this I'm primarily playing Stamina myself. So I in situations like these I usually look at AlcastHQ for a quick sanity check what Magicka builds do run.
@twing1_ I did mention diminishing returns in my post.
The reason I chose the values I mentioned here is that at least on the Stamina side first guides already recommend going with shadow as the new meta. They maybe mention that it's less beneficial for Khajiit, but stacking more and more Critical Chance (e.g. AY) was already less of a benefit to Khajiit than for other races with the old passive. No one cared about that either.
I'll add Thief with +10 Critical Damage, later. Have to do some real life now, though.
Thanks for your feedback guys.
Edited by muh on February 28, 2019 1:02PM1 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭@muh
I have tested on my own build which is not fully meta as I know - unfortunately relequen which I hate + deadly strike + master dual daggers and master bow as I dont have maelstrom with just sligh changes in cp thanks to this change with crit on khajiit
how I was running with lover mundus before I still need to run this with 64% crit chance with major savagery buff
so when highest selfbuffed phase I had 47.5k dps with lover I had max 43k dps with shadow mundus (pathetic for me) where with just thief mundus I had up to 45k dps
so as for lower crit change build buffed shadow mundus is just crap even in compare to thief mundus without any changesall pieces divines on armor with dual daggers with precise and nirn triat but I heard build especially for shadow mundus are with sharp trait instead of nirn + more invest into penetration in cp instead of crit damage (so in cp its pretty still nonsense as we need to sacriface crit dmg from cp to have viable option to use crit dmg mundus)0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The more I look into it, the more it seems that the best spot is a mix of 5% critical damage and 5% critical chance. At 75% base (without any passives) critical chance and 200% base critical damage, that would be a relative bump of 0.85% compared to current critical damage passive (0.57% compared to the old 8% critical chance bonus), and most importantly, at 200% base crit damage, such passive will give uniform boost across whole range of base critical chances, favoring neither high crit nor low crit builds.
I've tried to run 4% critical chance and 5% critical damage too, it's still 0.3% better than current passive at 75% base crit (and ever so slightly worse than old 8% crit passive), but it stops being uniform and slightly disfavors builds with lower crit. Maybe it would suit people who fear khajiits would overperform on magicka side (where base crit will be lower).1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just to post a graph as a follow-up... Graphs are pretty, can't be a bad thing to have one.
1 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭That’s a nice breakdown of the passive change.
There seems to be an assumption that khajiit would benefit too much from the Shadow Mundus because of their high crit chance because the two stats multiply. But the weapon damage/stamina passives for other races also multiply with the Shadow Mundus.
Khajiit now get to be the only race with an additive, rather than multiplicative bonus with the best in slot mundus stone.2 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭I think the pvp analysis might be a little off. 40% crit is actually pretty high for a pvp build (particularly with heavy armour or 2h) and minor force isn’t very common in pvp.
Other than the initial auto crit when ganking, it’s pretty hard to benefit from crit damage against a target with a decent build. Balancing enough crit chance with crit damage, base damage and sustain spreads stats too thinly and the sets don’t exist to do it. It’s much simpler to roll a non crit build/race and focus on base damage and sustain.
I think this leaves khajiit as only useful for ganking nightblades, which already had the extra damage from cloak last patch anyway.
2 -
muh✭✭✭With the input from @twing1_ I decided to compare Thief vs Shadow for Magicka in general and Thief is ever so slightly ahead and all Magicka Builds are using Thief Mundus in my comparisons now.
Just for visibility a copy pasta of the changed section.
Non-Khajiit:- Stamina: 75% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force),
- Magicka: 58% Critical Chance (Thief Mundus), 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force).
Stamina Khajiit:- New Khajiit (Shadow) - 75% Critical Chance, 125% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit passive)
- Old Khajiit (Shadow) - 83% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
- New Khajiit (Thief) - 86% Critical Chance, 105% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit)
- Old Khajiit (Thief) - 94% Critical Chance, 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
For Magicka, outside of PTS, Khajiit never had an "Old" passive, in this case I mean if the old +8% Critical Chance would apply to Spells as well.
Magicka Khajiit:- New Khajiit (Shadow) - 50% Critical Chance, 125% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit passive)
- Old Khajiit (Shadow) - 58% Critical Chance, 115% Critical Damage (Base + Shadow Mundus + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
- New Khajiit (Thief) - 61% Critical Chance, 105% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force + Khajiit)
- Old Khajiit (Thief) - 69% Critical Chance, 95% Critical Damage (Base + CP + Minor Force + Major Force)
Only racial differences decide where each race sits in the charts here.
Orc, Altmer and Dunmer all provide the largest flat bonus to Stamina/Magicka and Weapon/Spell Damage, so they sit at the top comfortably.
Followed by Khajiit, for Stamina builds only with Shadow Mundus, though. With Thief Mundus we can see the diminishing returns at work.
But this doesn't do some races justice, especially Bosmer, Imperial, Redguard and Breton. They're all sustain races and can use blue food instead of purple or gold, which gives them an additional 1774 to their Stamina/Magicka pool (over gold food, they gain more over purple food).
With racial appropriate food buffs, Orc, Altmer and Dunmer remain at the top, the gap to the other races closed a bit, though.
On the Magicka side Breton was able to surpass Khajiit in most cases, and is pretty much on par with Old Khajiit with Shadow Mundus.
For Stamina builds Khajiit dropped to the bottom of the charts in every case.
@Kolzki Yes, I feared it would be. I don't know good sources for PvP builds. I don't know what pots people run in PvP and I'm really not happy about it either way. To get some numbers at all I decided to look at a few Alcast builds which run a few Critical Strike Rating set bonuses as well as Major Prophecy pots.
PvP in general has very low critical related numbers. Because of Critical Resistance you have fairly low Critical Damage and because people generally tend to build more defensive in PvP you have low Critical Chance. Either way, +Critical Damage and +Critical Chance bonuses always provide a large jump. Going from 10% Critical Damage to 20% Critical Damage is an increase of 100%, going from 20% Critical Chance to 28% is a good increase as well, right?
It is misleading at best, even though the percentage gains look large, you don't actually gain that much. PvP is also way more fluid and it's much harder to find a common ground for calculations like this.
In my opinion neither Critical Chance, nor Critical Damage are performing anywhere near as good as Maximum Magicka / Stamina and Spell / Weapon Damage in PvP. Whatever they give Khajiit, as long as it is a passive related to critical strikes it'll be quite weak for PvP.Edited by muh on February 28, 2019 4:29PM3 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭This was exactly my line of thinking. If the passive pushes you just over the target’s crit resist by 10% then that’s a lot of extra damage. A 10% damage increase in fact. But the crit chance is generally too low to make much use of it.1
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twing1_✭✭✭✭Very interesting. Thanks for adding that @muh
I'm quite surprised switching from shadow -> thief didn't benefit Khajit in any scenario more than it actually does. I suspected that even on the stamina side of things, thief mundus would be a damage increase for the new Khajit in comparison to the shadow mundus. Perhaps it might still be for templar/nb (because of their 10% crit damage bonus), but the switch even under these conditions would not be nearly as impactful as I initially thought.
While it appears the thief does benefit magicka Khajit, stamina Khajit might still be better off running the shadow and instead of switching to the thief speccing less into precise strikes and more into thaumaturge/mighty.
Well done, very insightful.0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭From my testing a stamina khajiit nb gets roughly the same dps out of a lover build as a shadow build. Using the the thief or the warrior gives a noticeable dps loss.
I think I would use the shadow on any race/dps build this patch except for a magicka khajiit which gets marginally more dps from running the thief.0 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So basically, no matter how you slice it, to take advantage of this primary racial passive, khajiit have to actually gear up around it - "stark naked" the passive does nothing. Do any other races have this restriction on their passive's efficacy?PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭karthrag_inak wrote: »So basically, no matter how you slice it, to take advantage of this primary racial passive, khajiit have to actually gear up around it - "stark naked" the passive does nothing. Do any other races have this restriction on their passive's efficacy?
Nope. Redguards are somewhat affected by it as their cost reduction passive is penalized for not using weapon abilities, but it's hardly punishing since they can't escape using Hail, PI, Rending Slashes anyway (maybe using Rending Slashes as spammable would result in ~50 stamina/s of savings, it's a fraction of their total sustain). But that's nowhere near as punishing as with khajiits who don't build for high crit.
Not sure what ZOS was thinking about. Other races got mostly gear-agnostic passives that directly boost base damage (sure, weapon/spell damage is subject to diminishing returns too, but I don't see orc being punished for running Veiled as much as khajiit is for not running AY).
@Kolzki , which DW traits you've been using with Lover on stamblade? I'm still on a fence about trading Lover for Shadow.1 -
karthrag_inak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭so we have the henry ford "any color as long as it's black" build options as khajiit. AY or go home. nice.PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions. cp3600
GM of Imperial Gold Reserve trading guild (started in 2017) since 2/2022
Come visit Karth's Glitter Box, Khajiit's home. Fully stocked guild hall done in sleek Khajiit stylings, with Grand Master Stations, Transmute, Scribing, Trial Dummies, etc. Also has 2 full bowling alleys, nightclub, and floating maze over Wrothgar.2 -
Skullstachio✭✭✭✭✭Most of those statistics look neat, however, looking at those statistics can be daunting depending on whether it is for PvE or PvP. (because jumping from PvE to PvP can create almost unprecedented rage if one is not up to spec.)
but Really though, if Pvp was a "Completely Separate Entity" from PvE (as in if every ability was different from PvE and seperately orientated for pure PvP) it wouldn't be as hard for ZOS to make changes to most abilities and passives.If you see me anywhere. Know that I am sitting back with a bag of popcorn, watching as ESO burns the goodwill of its player base with practices that only disrespects the players time like it did to me and many others...
If a game does not respect your time, best thing to do is move on from it and find something else.0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭@John_Falstaff definitely nirhoned main hand (NEVER offhand). Infused is still pretty good but don't run it if you use poisons (I think poisons are still bugged and don't stack with other player's?).
IMO if your group has low up time at penetration cap then use sharpened. It's also nice for adds that aren't fully debuffed. Precise is good, but is only as strong as sharpened when warhorn is up.
I'm not sure that this is the simple answer that you're after. If you already have infused and want to use the lover then just stick with nirn main hand, infused offhand.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Kolzki , no, actually a very good response, thank you; I'm simply weighing my options. I've ran nirnhoned main hand + infused off hand during Wolfhunter, still have that setup intact - just doing optimizations since DW nerf took ~2k off my damage. Will probably run with nirnhoned/infused until and if I'm sure that other setups are better on khajiit.0