Idea: Level 100 as max level instead of CP 160?

Kulvar

Other Option

An overhaul of the CP system is coming, unless it's part of that rework, I don't see the point.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Valrien wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

I prefer Level 50 - Max cp 999 (333 each)


Anyone with CP over 999 currently banked can cash in 5 cp for some turn in item, which would work alleviate the pain.

I prefer you just grind more CP to catch up with us. Why is your preference anymore valid than mine?

Because a cap of 3600 is really boring because everyone will have great sustain but also great damage and defense (which cancels each other out and becomes pointless). It is also impractical in that we will never ever be able to hit it with the small 30 point increase we have every 3 months. Hard capping CP would at least be a start to handling power creep

Sorry but I reject the premise CP is an issure for power creep. First off power should grow, secondly gear is a much bigger issue for power creep, third poor dungeon mechanics emphasizing one shots over real healing within groups is also a bigger issue.
Lastly overland was made to easy with the whole one tamrial rewrite and has not scaled right since then as it is locked at CP 160.

Why should power grow, exactly?

I do believe that power creep is inevitable in an MMO. If you want players to keep striving for new gear, you need to make it better in some way than what they are currently using. Practically speaking, that means morw powerful. Unless you combine new gear with underlying nerfs (something that is both problematic to balance and likely to frustrate your playerbase), gear alone is going to lead to power creep. The CP system compounds the problem certainly.

I also don’t believe that power creep is on its face a bad thing. Certainly it needs to be managed, but a little is actually healthy for the game IMO. For one, it allows devs to create new content at a level that challenges even the best groups, but also means that less skilled groups will have an easier time of it down the road. It also means skilled groups can revisit older content with strats that perhaps weren’t feasible when the content launched.

Acrolas

It probably wouldn't be that hard to shift down to CP100 or up to CP200 simply by omitting from or redistributing Ranks 6 through 9. Rank 9 (CP90 through CP140) is a bit overloaded level-wise and Ranks 6 (CP10-CP30), 7 (CP40-CP60), and 8 (CP70-CP80) are the flyover states of crafting.

New system could look like:

Rank 5: 46-50
Rank 6: CP10 to CP20
Rank 7: CP30 to CP40
Rank 8: CP50 to CP60
Rank 9: CP70 to CP80
Rank 10: CP90 to CP100

And psychologically rounded numbers just feel better.

Skwor

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

I prefer Level 50 - Max cp 999 (333 each)


Anyone with CP over 999 currently banked can cash in 5 cp for some turn in item, which would work alleviate the pain.

I prefer you just grind more CP to catch up with us. Why is your preference anymore valid than mine?

Because a cap of 3600 is really boring because everyone will have great sustain but also great damage and defense (which cancels each other out and becomes pointless). It is also impractical in that we will never ever be able to hit it with the small 30 point increase we have every 3 months. Hard capping CP would at least be a start to handling power creep

Sorry but I reject the premise CP is an issure for power creep. First off power should grow, secondly gear is a much bigger issue for power creep, third poor dungeon mechanics emphasizing one shots over real healing within groups is also a bigger issue.
Lastly overland was made to easy with the whole one tamrial rewrite and has not scaled right since then as it is locked at CP 160.

Why should power grow, exactly?

I do believe that power creep is inevitable in an MMO. If you want players to keep striving for new gear, you need to make it better in some way than what they are currently using. Practically speaking, that means morw powerful. Unless you combine new gear with underlying nerfs (something that is both problematic to balance and likely to frustrate your playerbase), gear alone is going to lead to power creep. The CP system compounds the problem certainly.

I also don’t believe that power creep is on its face a bad thing. Certainly it needs to be managed, but a little is actually healthy for the game IMO. For one, it allows devs to create new content at a level that challenges even the best groups, but also means that less skilled groups will have an easier time of it down the road. It also means skilled groups can revisit older content with strats that perhaps weren’t feasible when the content launched.

Exactly

jainiadral

No, keep everything as it is

Yuck. Putting alts through 100 levels before they can contribute to CP would kill me. 50 takes long enough. If I'd have had to make it through double the new grind as a new player before seeing any ease-up in combat difficulty, I'd have quit long ago.

Getting punched in the face and not seeing any improvement in difficulty for twice as long will destroy new players. It's the epitome of no fun.

I also pity PvP players who'd have to grind twice as much stuff they despise to level new alts. Just no.

Grandma

Other Option

people who blame non-existent "power creep" on cp have 0 idea what they're talking about.

the difference between a cp 160 and cp 810 person never going to be more than a reasonable amount of dps.

1) let's say for example the power distance is 8k dps, even though it could be lower or higher depending entirely on PLAYER SKILL.
2) if leveling up 650 times after playing the game for years means literally, bottom line, NO power distance (which is what people who have been playing the game for 2 hours beg for even though they fail to realize they're literally scaled upwards and are more powerful at level 5 then they will be at cp 10) then literally what is the point of playing the game and leveling up.
3) so let's get rid of the power distance. congratulations. level 160 people and max level people do the same damage. 80% max level players quit. are you happy yet?
4) no. because we need more than that. the real, actual source of "power creep" is gear and sets introduced in DLC. siroria, relequens, olorime, these sets from summerset alone affect damage more than cp ever will. Earthgore makes healing a joke, and any content is possible if you slot healing springs alone. velidreth does ridiculous stam dps and nobody bats an eye. If we actually tuned these sets and made them less brokenly overpowered, the 'power distance' between cp would be more clearly visible as basically non-existent, and low level players would stop complaining about the power distance.

*** who kick people for not being high CP is not the game. They aren't the developers. they aren't even good, most of the time. They don't know what they're even thinking. I think what they're trying tos ay by doing this is that having a higher cp is correlated with your experience in hard content, which is OBVIOUSLY not true. I have a guild leader at cp 300 who regularly runs vet hm trials successfully because it's what he's been doing since cp 160. and i have friends at cp 600 who haven't even stepped in cloudrest yet. the literal only difference is experience, which ties into overpowered gear.

i'm not saying cp 810 isn't too much; i think the cap should be a little lower, more like 6-700, but getting rid of cp and making everyone play on the same leveling field is what they did with One tamriel, which made overworld and leveling 1-50 mind-numbingly boring to play. So i fear to imagine what removing CP would do.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Grandma wrote: »

people who blame non-existent "power creep" on cp have 0 idea what they're talking about.

the difference between a cp 160 and cp 810 person never going to be more than a reasonable amount of dps.

1) let's say for example the power distance is 8k dps, even though it could be lower or higher depending entirely on PLAYER SKILL.
2) if leveling up 650 times after playing the game for years means literally, bottom line, NO power distance (which is what people who have been playing the game for 2 hours beg for even though they fail to realize they're literally scaled upwards and are more powerful at level 5 then they will be at cp 10) then literally what is the point of playing the game and leveling up.
3) so let's get rid of the power distance. congratulations. level 160 people and max level people do the same damage. 80% max level players quit. are you happy yet?
4) no. because we need more than that. the real, actual source of "power creep" is gear and sets introduced in DLC. siroria, relequens, olorime, these sets from summerset alone affect damage more than cp ever will. Earthgore makes healing a joke, and any content is possible if you slot healing springs alone. velidreth does ridiculous stam dps and nobody bats an eye. If we actually tuned these sets and made them less brokenly overpowered, the 'power distance' between cp would be more clearly visible as basically non-existent, and low level players would stop complaining about the power distance.

*** who kick people for not being high CP is not the game. They aren't the developers. they aren't even good, most of the time. They don't know what they're even thinking. I think what they're trying tos ay by doing this is that having a higher cp is correlated with your experience in hard content, which is OBVIOUSLY not true. I have a guild leader at cp 300 who regularly runs vet hm trials successfully because it's what he's been doing since cp 160. and i have friends at cp 600 who haven't even stepped in cloudrest yet. the literal only difference is experience, which ties into overpowered gear.

i'm not saying cp 810 isn't too much; i think the cap should be a little lower, more like 6-700, but getting rid of cp and making everyone play on the same leveling field is what they did with One tamriel, which made overworld and leveling 1-50 mind-numbingly boring to play. So i fear to imagine what removing CP would do.

The difference is more than 8K DPS. I have a regular account well over the cap and an alt account with less than 200 CP. At 160 CP, i did a fair amount of dummy testing and ran VMA a few times. The DPS differnce for me was almost double that (hard to call it apples to apples as I didnt have all the dropped gear on my alt account). The bigger issue for me was frankly sustain. In VMA, I could still nuke what needed nuked at 160CP, but you had to pay way more attention to your resources. This is also where you feel the CP gap in PVP, as resources are king there. The difference between CP160 and CP 810 in PVP is pretty large, and its not just about damage.

I do agree that gear is the biggest cause of power creep, but CP is certainly part of the equation.

Avrael

Yes, bring level 100 and make it the maximum level

Im just baffled every time by how ok people are with sub-par products. Everytime i hear someone defend something like that, i get this impression:
"Hey do you want this product, or do you want the same product but better? The people who you pay money would have to work a bit for it, and maybe it could take some time, but it would be better." And then people just saying "Nah gimme dat inferior shet!"

I dont think many people realize things can change (not only in this game btw!). If we players, that literally PAY the devs, want something changed because we think it would be more worth our money, we could get such a change! Absolutley noone sees that, or really noone wants that or even cares about it, which would be just really sad.

Also i dont think people realize that i dont just want to get rid of the CP! I just want it to be apart from the normal levels, even if the max level would only be 50 then, i dont even care, just to make items and equipment dont depend on CP, is that so hard to read? I know i write a lot, probably even too much, but please, either read (and understand) at least most of it, or dont bother replying at all... praised be your opinion and all, but an opinion based on half information is worth absolutley nothing to anyone.

jainiadral

No, keep everything as it is

Avrael wrote: »

Im just baffled every time by how ok people are with sub-par products. Everytime i hear someone defend something like that, i get this impression:
"Hey do you want this product, or do you want the same product but better? The people who you pay money would have to work a bit for it, and maybe it could take some time, but it would be better." And then people just saying "Nah gimme dat inferior shet!"

I dont think many people realize things can change (not only in this game btw!). If we players, that literally PAY the devs, want something changed because we think it would be more worth our money, we could get such a change! Absolutley noone sees that, or really noone wants that or even cares about it, which would be just really sad.

Also i dont think people realize that i dont just want to get rid of the CP! I just want it to be apart from the normal levels, even if the max level would only be 50 then, i dont even care, just to make items and equipment dont depend on CP, is that so hard to read? I know i write a lot, probably even too much, but please, either read (and understand) at least most of it, or dont bother replying at all... praised be your opinion and all, but an opinion based on half information is worth absolutley nothing to anyone.

Your sub-par is my ideal. So, yeah, I'm pretty content with what we have. I like the way the gearing system ends at CP 160. At 160, I'm done with gearing as a solo overland quester. When I hit 50 on an alt, I plop them in some purple/gold 160 sets, and I'm finished gearing them too.

Making gearing have 100 regular levels isn't going to make my game more fun. Having to grind more base levels isn't either. Why are regular gearing levels more desireable, anyway? Just name your 160 gear level 100 on your head. Done.

Operativ

No, keep everything as it is

There's literally no point in doing that. Another way for a power creep to spring up later, and more fiddling with equipment scaling again.

Level 50 should remain the maximum level.

On the other hand, CP could be capped back to 300 how it used to be and remain at that level, however I suspect that the developers already have another solution on-going in the development stage.

Siohwenoeht

Other Option

Disclaimer: I know what I'm about to write might not be popular but...

If new endgame content is balanced around cp300 which many people have said, then the gear cap should increase to cp300. They could easily include a system for upgrading the level of your gear with minimal re-grind and I think this would help narrow the gap that cp has created.

russelmmendoza

Level 100 for rookie.
Cp level for veteran.
Rookie gets 1 skill point per level up.
Veteran get 1cp per level up.
No cap on cp.

JPS

No, keep everything as it is

You want this game dumbed down as much as WoW? Then go play WoW….

Mr_Walker

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Why does there need to be any change or any further vertical progression?

Because levelling is a staple of RPGs. Has been since day dot.

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Is anyone asking fir it...? Just focus on continouos horizontal progression

Can we please stop repeating the inane phrase "horizontal progression". It's meaningless. It's a nonsensical pile of BS thought up by some marketing clown, which people seem to think is a thing. It's not.

lakaisl

No, keep everything as it is

If I have to get all the equipment I got, as a casual gamer, for the last 4 years, i'm outta here...

Nerouyn

No, keep everything as it is

Avrael wrote: »

Ive already talked about this, but that was a long time ago, so here we go again.

Please stop.

Leveling isn't fun. At all.

It's an annoying period during which you get loot and gear which is worth less gold and which at most can be temporary.

Slightly less true now with the outfit system but it's still to an extent an annoying period during which you can't look the way you might want without wasting a tonne of gold on expensive style items to achieve the look you want.

Operativ

No, keep everything as it is

JPS wrote: »

You want this game dumbed down as much as WoW? Then go play WoW….

I do hope that The Elder Scrolls Online keeps a really well-developed progression system along with game world power scaling that is currently around us for a longer time. This keeps the game really alive, and makes every content worth attempting, because it'll be both rewarding and somehow challenging.

The reason I mention that is, because World of Warcraft is seeing a great population decrease after the Battle for Azeroth release - lack of content, and high-end players simply cannot play older content as it's not worth it and they'll one shot everything which is not fun.

There are many WoW players coming to TESO (you can even see it amongst the Steam store page comments), so for one I would not wish anybody to go WoW, and even worse for the game to get where WoW is at this point.

I am really glad that the developers do not look at WoW as a role model, because it has lost this value a long time ago.

And back on-topic, I think that it's the best idea if they keep away from increasing both CP or gear level further.

commdt

Other Option

The main problem with current system is the interval between level 50 and 160 cp. Because there are 3 types of PvP queue:
- Below 50
- Non-CP (pretends to be 50 - cp810)
- Full champ (cp810+)

First one and last one are absolutely fine, they work equally for everyone. But the second type is actually for players of 160+ CP, because you will definitely not make golden gear before cp160 (probably you will not make any build at all, because it will become a pumkin on the next day). So in fact we have
<50
cp160 - cp810
cp810+
campaigns, where there is no place to players of level cp1 - cp160. And when said players ask me "which campaign should I pick for PvP?" I answer: "none, suffer, live you miserable life until you will be level 160"

The system itself may or may not change it doesnt matter, what must be changed is CP requirement for the gear. Thats right any gear should require only base level, the same as a cap for "low level" campaigns. In the same time to justify cp1-cp160 resources maximum level everywhere (in Pvp queues, on gears etc) might be changed to 66 (because 160 cp equals 66 lvl)

VexingArcanist

No.

Making Oranges taste like ORANGES really doesn't change the taste.

rabidmyers

No, keep everything as it is

yeah no

Anhedonie

Other Option

Holy ***, no.
Just delete champion system and keep the max level at 50.

Avrael

Yes, bring level 100 and make it the maximum level

Ok, now i realize the biggest problem with this idea is the level 100. Thats really wasnt my main point. I understand and KNOW that leveling isnt fun, and i realize that skillpoints on level up are one of the only things that the normal levels give, and thats very important and not easily scalable.

Let me propose another form of my idea: Make the max level for items, equipment, consumables etc. 50. Just the normal Level 50. Then the CP would really be ONLY the system to level after max level that it should have been. And if theyre going to adjust it anyways, great... even if im really sceptical about how positive those adjustments will be. If theyre anything like the current racial changes, then oh boi.

That would also mean that you again just have to level any char to 50 until you can use all the gear... just like it is atm, but without the extra nonsense of all the diffrent CP caps for things.

And i already can hear people scream: "BuT tHeN tHeY hAvE tO sCaLe It To MaKe ThE lv50 gEaR sTrOnGeR!" Yes, they would have, and thats no problem for them, theyre the goshdarn developers. Dont even try to bring that as an argument.

Lemme see what people say to this before i make another thread...

KatzMainTank

Other Option

ArchMikem wrote: »

The Champion System seemed cool at first in the day, but now it seems like an unnecessary secondary set of "levels"......................Simple, remove the system and its bonuses. Find a new system to give new bonuses, but not all of them.

It is a derivative of traditional leveling. The purpose is to drip feed statistical progression to keep people playing. Too much and you get what we have now, too little and you get what we had then. The problem now is that Zeni knows that it's getting much easier to reach cap with every increase with many people already sitting at cap 2-4 times over already.

I do like the idea of finding a new system, or at the very least refining the system.

Something to extent of say...in order to get a certain percentile of said stat you need to accomplish X. Lets say X is a solo hard mode for each dungeon but a stat(s) are tied to the weapons equipped. So in order to reach level 1 of magicka a player has to go in to this dungeon mode with a destro staff equipped - completing a destro variant unlocks three tree perks, completing all three destro versions unlocks three more higher tier tree perks so and so on for the other weapons. Throw in versions of this dungeon mode for class skill lines and then have all the higher perks have a sense of synergy, enough to make a character FEEL fully customized but not over done to the point where it becomes like any other grinder. This makes total character progression and user defined progression work in tandem.

(^And I'm not saying this is what I would want exactly but something along the lines of this where character progression feels more like PoE rather than BDO.) (<Also crap examples but that's what comes to mind when I think of sides of the spectrum dealing with p

Skwor wrote: »

and I am far from the only one who would leave if they did you that.[/quote]
No you wouldn't and if you/they did, it wouldn't be a permanent departure.

Other than that I think zeni is weighing their options financially when it comes to how CP is involved from here on out. Lose some of the store whales or gain a few new people with a more enticing incentive to actually stay in the game for consistent periods. Either way it's going to change, for better or worse is the question.

Emma_Overload

Power creep from CP is a myth. Most of the "power" comes in the first couple hundred CP, anything after that is just gravy on top.

jainiadral

No, keep everything as it is

.

Avrael wrote: »

Ok, now i realize the biggest problem with this idea is the level 100. Thats really wasnt my main point. I understand and KNOW that leveling isnt fun, and i realize that skillpoints on level up are one of the only things that the normal levels give, and thats very important and not easily scalable.

Let me propose another form of my idea: Make the max level for items, equipment, consumables etc. 50. Just the normal Level 50. Then the CP would really be ONLY the system to level after max level that it should have been. And if theyre going to adjust it anyways, great... even if im really sceptical about how positive those adjustments will be. If theyre anything like the current racial changes, then oh boi.

That would also mean that you again just have to level any char to 50 until you can use all the gear... just like it is atm, but without the extra nonsense of all the diffrent CP caps for things.

And i already can hear people scream: "BuT tHeN tHeY hAvE tO sCaLe It To MaKe ThE lv50 gEaR sTrOnGeR!" Yes, they would have, and thats no problem for them, theyre the goshdarn developers. Dont even try to bring that as an argument.

Lemme see what people say to this before i make another thread...

So basically, you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing if anything will stick. Except you started with spaghetti and now it's morphed into walnuts. What's the point of this whole exercise if your ideas keep changing?

What's your objective? You still haven't defined what your issue is with the progression systems in the game. From all I can see, your main problem seems to be with the number 160 for some reason.

Karmanorway

No, keep everything as it is

Make cp cap 1k ☺️

ZeroXFF

Other Option

At this point I believe they should get rid of item levels altogether, just keep levels as a way of gaining attribute points. It's weird that you get weaker the higher your level is.

As for CPs as a system, yeah, if it remains a way to buff combat effectiveness, I agree that it should kick in at max. level. I don't see a reason to change the level cap though. If it's reworked into a QoL system (which I hope will happen), then may as well stay as it is.

josiahva

Other Option

This wouldnt change a thing...call it level 100 or CP160...what would the difference be exactly? Aside from less customization

Avrael

Yes, bring level 100 and make it the maximum level

@jainiadral My issue is, that there are 10 diffrent max levels in the game. Why are potions still CP 150? Why are some foods Lv 1? Why is equipment CP 160, or like, CP related at all? Why isnt 50, or some NORMAL level the max level? Imagine in Diablo 3 the gear would be for Paragon 283, or in whatever game a level that only comes AFTER the normal levels. That might sound hot to you, but to me it makes absolutley no sense and just looks stupid.

jainiadral

No, keep everything as it is

Avrael wrote: »

@jainiadral My issue is, that there are 10 diffrent max levels in the game. Why are potions still CP 150? Why are some foods Lv 1? Why is equipment CP 160, or like, CP related at all? Why isnt 50, or some NORMAL level the max level? Imagine in Diablo 3 the gear would be for Paragon 283, or in whatever game a level that only comes AFTER the normal levels. That might sound hot to you, but to me it makes absolutley no sense and just looks stupid.

I've only played the free trial for Diablo 3, so I have no clue what Paragon 283 even is.

Why there aren't CP 160 potions or food? No idea. Maybe for consistency's sake, ZOS should add some.

Why do food items have explicit levels? Probably for immersion or RP purposes. Eating the same stew or bread you had at level 1 would be pretty boring if you're more than a number cruncher. Cooking the same roast chicken the entire time you're leveling provisioning lacks the feel of being a cook. The joy of crafting. Which is a big part of why it's more engaging to play ESO than some idle clicker game.

Why is there CP armor? Because CP is the endgame leveling system after 50. Because MMOs always have arcane leveling systems. In SWL, you have IP or item power, an aggregate stat that depends on your tiered armor levels which are leveled individually through different qualities. It's confusing and annoying. In SWTOR, gear quality is assigned by a number that has nothing to do with your level beyond when you're allowed to equip it. When I left, max level was 70, max gear was 248. And there were additional sets with bonuses attached.

Tell me that CP is hard or arcane after you've spent months/years grokking other games' systems. Hint: it isn't. You're at CP 150, you use CP 150 gear. At CP 160 and above, you use 160. It's pretty easy. Dealing with sets is the hard part.