Really really disappointing for patchnotes for pvp.

Danklord

Really disappointed at Zos for not doing anything about all the slows and debuffs and Dks fossilizied.

In a game like this, double break out CC is far to overpowered. In BGs as any mag player, having to waste all your stamina to break out is really punishing. Doesn't even need to be in Bgs really. Just anywhere where you have to do 2x different breakout actions to get away is far to punishing when you can reapply same CC again a few seconds later, with no loss for the Dk but a huge punishment on the enemy. If you're to have a double CC, it should cost as much aswell. I think the spell right now is a few thousand. Bump that up so the Dk really feels that hes now using an expensive spell with a big punishment. It costs right now 2.7k which is nothing compared to what it can do.

Then we have the slow meta and debuff meta. The meta where if you lack a templar, you can just put on autowalk, because that will be your speed for 99% of the game. Everyone is running frostwarden with spintowin and debuff classes. So you have 10 debuffs + you walk slower than your grandma. And if you have a templar, if he wants you to run at a normal speed and not have 10+ debuffs. He needs to cling on to that cleanse button as if his life depended on it.

Because you have spells that apply slows and debuffs by the press of 1button, they also deal dmg. And these spells can cost 1k - 3k. Then you apply 10 debuffs with 2-3 button presses. And if you're a non templar, your only defense is a 5k purify that removes 2 of those 10. But the one you're fighting spends 2k to bring those bk again + hes hurting you and you're not healing if you're purifying. And if you intend to constantly remove those debuffs or have any debuffs removed, forget healing, you're entire magicka pool is gone.

We need counters to these. We had 1 set, which is a beginning, but defiently not a solution. I think it removes debuffs when you heal with a few secs CD. and you also get magicka bk from it. Which is a nice touch. But debuffs gets applied far to quickly. And you have slows in every skill tree, now you're also adding slow sets.

Zos do you even want us to move at all? Maybe we should all stand still like turrets. Remove spin to winners and the only classes allowed to play is casters and bowbuilds. And we will all be stationary and shoot eachother from a distance. Because no1 can move anyway.

Anyway Zos fixes non of these issues and theres probably more issues people can come up with that i havn't here. I know that list is huge. But im to tired to write an essay, so this small wall will have to do. Either Zos doesn't think theres an issue with the slow. Or they want everyone to reroll templar. Because i did and atleast then the game became decently enjoyable. But now when a new patch comes out and 0 fixes? Yeee no thanks.


tldr: Zos do not adresses fossilize or slow/debuff meta in the patchnotes. Huge disappointment.

md3788

Leave my fossilize alone.

Danklord

md3788 wrote: »

Leave my fossilize alone.

Dw at this pace. It won't be touched until 2 years or so.

likecats

I get more annoyed with AOE snares than single target abilities.

Timestop got nerfed thankfully.
Ice blockade also needs to be nerfed in snare.
Caltrops needs a snare nerf.
Permafrost needs a snare nerf.
Even templar cleanse could use a snare nerf.

Hopefully next patch they will address AOE snares and come up with a viable solution.

Baconlad

Been saying it for years. Many have been. Major/ minor debuff to snares.
And they should never last more than a few seconds. And remove snare immunity from stamina.

Stuns could use a rework too. No more than two seconds. The game too heavily rewards stamina players and punishes magick players. If I lack the stamina to CC break because I've had to break a CC every six seconds, 1 dodge roll, and a tap on block but dont have a way to regen that stamina through heavy attacks...that's not really fair that I get hit with a 4 second stun and can't do *** about it And it shows in the amount of stambros we have running around cyro and BGs.

Stamina is just too good, and it's not their damage, it's all the other benefits they have, like snare immunity, EASY access to major speed, massive stamina pool to have plenty of CC breaks and that they dont rely on magic near to the point of magic specs relying on stamina.

Urvoth

Idk why there has to be a 6 month dev cycle to just get snares fixed. They've been a huge problem since Murkmire and now we're going to have to wait till Elsweyr for something to happen.

md3788

likecats wrote: »

I get more annoyed with AOE snares than single target abilities.

Timestop got nerfed thankfully.
Ice blockade also needs to be nerfed in snare.
Caltrops needs a snare nerf.
Permafrost needs a snare nerf.
Even templar cleanse could use a snare nerf.

Hopefully next patch they will address AOE snares and come up with a viable solution.

I don't even see why Cleanse has a snare. I get the other abilities, by why that?

Xirks

Is this why everyone is running bombard and encase slotted in every slot now?

Iskiab

Templar cleanse? What are you talking about.

The Templar ritual is a self cleanse only, to purge other debuffs your team mates have to use a synergy. The ability that cleanses for everyone is a guild skill called purge/cleanse that any magicka class can use.

As much as you might not like snares or immobilizations it was pretty obvious most players do. There was a huge uproar in the PTS forums about the set that would help to cleanse debuffs, players said it was overpowered.

I’d slot a ranged ability or charge, the game won’t likely change anytime soon - players got upset.

likecats

md3788 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

I get more annoyed with AOE snares than single target abilities.

Timestop got nerfed thankfully.
Ice blockade also needs to be nerfed in snare.
Caltrops needs a snare nerf.
Permafrost needs a snare nerf.
Even templar cleanse could use a snare nerf.

Hopefully next patch they will address AOE snares and come up with a viable solution.

I don't even see why Cleanse has a snare. I get the other abilities, by why that?

In the past, templars were supposed to 'have a house'.
Cleanse + restoring focus would make up that house.
So they added snare, so that the templar is dominant whenever someone comes in the area.

But the game has moved on, and even ZOS seems to have abandoned the 'house' philosophy. Most templars know that staying in a house will just get them killed, so the house theme has not worked as intended for sometime now.

They don't need to remove the snare, but it needs to come down along with all other AOE snares.

jaime1982

likecats wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

I get more annoyed with AOE snares than single target abilities.

Timestop got nerfed thankfully.
Ice blockade also needs to be nerfed in snare.
Caltrops needs a snare nerf.
Permafrost needs a snare nerf.
Even templar cleanse could use a snare nerf.

Hopefully next patch they will address AOE snares and come up with a viable solution.

I don't even see why Cleanse has a snare. I get the other abilities, by why that?

In the past, templars were supposed to 'have a house'.
Cleanse + restoring focus would make up that house.
So they added snare, so that the templar is dominant whenever someone comes in the area.

But the game has moved on, and even ZOS seems to have abandoned the 'house' philosophy. Most templars know that staying in a house will just get them killed, so the house theme has not worked as intended for sometime now.

They don't need to remove the snare, but it needs to come down along with all other AOE snares.

Disagree, needs to be stronger. 80% speed reduction or maybe even minor defile for standing in it.

Danklord

Good to know some agrees the snares needs to be changed. I unsubbed myself because i was hoping they would finally fix the snares and everything. But there wasn't even 1 word about it and they even added more slow sets.

To me it seems like Zos is going with what Iskiab is saying. Tho i don't see many people actually being vocal about snares being a good thing. More towards snares being a bad thing. Snares is just a really really boring mechanic, it's not fun walking around. And i honestly doubt having everyone at walking speed is the way we should play the game. Or that it is a good thing in general.

We need to nerf snares, like people mention, a minor/major version. And make major very rare and that its the only version that can lead to a stun, like perma frost. 70% is way to much. I think a lower version of major 30% and minor 15% is alot better, just so it goes hand in hand with the speed buffs. Could maybe make it 40% or so, but 70% is far to high. And having all the spammables only do the minor version. Atm even caltrops is 70% at the initial and then 30%. That could be 30% then 15%.

No1 likes people being able to sprint away everytime they're in danger, because thats lame. But we don't want vice versa, that it is impossible to get away aswell. Slows should be something you use the same way you would use a stun. You calculate where its needed, not that you just spam it because you can. As a sorc (before runecage nerf) i didn't just spam runecage, i waited until i could stun him at the right moment where his chances of recovering would be the smallest. Slows should work the same way, instead of spamming slows from every ability, it should be something you use to prevent someone from getting away. Not to immobilize them during 100% of the fight.

Alfie2072

Baconlad wrote: »

Been saying it for years. Many have been. Major/ minor debuff to snares.
And they should never last more than a few seconds. And remove snare immunity from stamina.

Stuns could use a rework too. No more than two seconds. The game too heavily rewards stamina players and punishes magick players. If I lack the stamina to CC break because I've had to break a CC every six seconds, 1 dodge roll, and a tap on block but dont have a way to regen that stamina through heavy attacks...that's not really fair that I get hit with a 4 second stun and can't do *** about it And it shows in the amount of stambros we have running around cyro and BGs.

Stamina is just too good, and it's not their damage, it's all the other benefits they have, like snare immunity, EASY access to major speed, massive stamina pool to have plenty of CC breaks and that they dont rely on magic near to the point of magic specs relying on stamina.

removing all forms of snare immunity for stamina is completely uncalled for, why not give magic more options for snare removal and immunity? sounds like your giving abit of a bias opinion
stamina also doesnt have EASY access to major speed at all, speed pots got nerfed to the point they arent worth running and swift is worthless too, at the moment its not very hard to outrun a stam build on certain classes
we also have a larger stam pool because its our main recourse???? hence the fact that magplars and magdks can perma block 50x easier and more often than stamina can
if you actually want to be constructive why not talk about how mag needs more options to remove snare, maybe a boost in stamina for mag toons somehow, and tbh both sides need a speed buff, imo ive always said since the speed pot nerf, bring it back to 100% uptime and make a magic speed pot, or bring it to 25 seconds or something
speed pots were never the issue, noone spoke about speed before swift, swift was the speed issue, not speed pots
also there are other ways to do things you would like to do, for example fight with DW main bar and weave heavy attacks when needed for stam
we can just as easily say the same about how stam has no way to get mag back which is pretty much most of our utility, with the exception of one or two skills
imo i see mag toons in cyrodiil on PC, NA alot more than i see stam, almost all my deaths come from mag toons
just a thought, lets be constructive so the devs dont delete the post like they always do xD

Rikumaru

I don't agree with cc breaking and dodge rolling to be a bad thing. You build your character in that way and the enemy that you have a problem with is a DK which is supposed to be great at locking down enemies. That being said, snares are absolutely OP and need some serious changes. I personally would like to see every class based major expedition skill buffed up, a magicka snare removal to be added and shuffle to give 6 seconds of immunity to roots and snares. It's absurd that shuffle is weaker than forward momentum when IT'S A MEDIUM ARMOR SKILL.

Danklord

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

Rikumaru

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

1st of all if you are having issues with stam management on a magicka build you need to invest into stamina sustain. You can put a stamina rec glyph on one of your jewelry, you can use amberplasm which is a very popular magicka set for no CP for the very problem you are having and with the new high elf it gives roughly 200 stamina regen if you proc it on cooldown. Also if you are not a magicka sorc, you should be going vampire as it gives 10% stamina + magicka recovery and you have access to mist form which is 100% required especially in this snare meta. Also with mist you only need to break free and then mist form to get rid of the root which saves you stamina.

Now as for runecage, the reason why it was so OP was because magicka sorc is all about delayed burst. ZOS decided to place in a 28m ranged uncounterable CC for the class with the best delayed burst in the entire game. It's balanced on DK because it's got a shorter range and DK isn't about big burst unlike sorc. Also you are a templar which can remove roots with cleanse, so with all of the above I've mentioned and as a templar you really shouldn't be having issues with stamina management.

Sypherioth

Dodge roll. speed and cloak is my big friend lately on NB. And about runecage. Wtf that skill is still good. Don''t cry about runecage…

And dont compare fossilize with it.

As long as fossilize isnt a 28 meter range and as long as fossilize its synergy isnt the same as what you can do with runecage then dont cry.

lot of times when im dead its still rune cage with mage fury and other crap that almost kills me in an instant. And then not even implosion was there… Sorc should not complain as long as they are nr 1 in movability… why do sorc want most dmg best cc and best mobility? Even on range if want.

Fossilize for stam dk is one of the only skills that actually makes dk kill (without dizzying swing spam). Without fossilize my stam dk would have 50% less kills. All because a stam dk has dots and no big instant dmg skill.

Danklord

The only reason i struggle in stam department is because of Dks. Dks bursts you down super fast. I get hit, with 25k resistance, soft capped crit resistance standing in my templar field, by 11k+ ultimate leaps from Dks.

Is that not burst? Now imagine that you're also stunned, they whip for strong as hell hits, keep spamming whip on you and you try to recover, they stun you again with fossilize and if you're not dead by then you will be.

Fossilize is broken, it's not balanced "because it's short range." That doesn't matter when theres gapclosers. 1 charge and 1 fossilize there you go. Or leap and maintain slow on you until the stun immunity CD is off and they fossilize you. I can tell you ye if bow builds had the same, that would be far more overpowered, i'd give you that. But fossilize is far away from balanced.

Everysingle magdk in the game in pvp uses it, no1 would ever take it off their bar. It's far to strong.


Also to adress ur "just cleanse the root" faullacy. If you get hit by fossilize then a few spam whips (and as we know how weird breaking out can be, this outcome and be better or worse) you're down to about 60% of ur hp, you know that leap is coming, theres no time to cleanse, heal, before he leaps and finnishes you off. You need to dodge roll away to get a second or so of breathing time away, then heal yourself backup before he leaps you.

Theres youtube vids of magdks in bgs, hitting tanks for 3k whips non crit. Now put that same dmg on a 5l/2h or 5m/2h. Thats closer to 4-5k.

haakira

Rikumaru wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

1st of all if you are having issues with stam management on a magicka build you need to invest into stamina sustain. You can put a stamina rec glyph on one of your jewelry, you can use amberplasm which is a very popular magicka set for no CP for the very problem you are having and with the new high elf it gives roughly 200 stamina regen if you proc it on cooldown. Also if you are not a magicka sorc, you should be going vampire as it gives 10% stamina + magicka recovery and you have access to mist form which is 100% required especially in this snare meta. Also with mist you only need to break free and then mist form to get rid of the root which saves you stamina.

Now as for runecage, the reason why it was so OP was because magicka sorc is all about delayed burst. ZOS decided to place in a 28m ranged uncounterable CC for the class with the best delayed burst in the entire game. It's balanced on DK because it's got a shorter range and DK isn't about big burst unlike sorc. Also you are a templar which can remove roots with cleanse, so with all of the above I've mentioned and as a templar you really shouldn't be having issues with stamina management.

Either you never played DK or you don't know what your talking about. I play mDK very often and I agree with Fossilize being completely OP. It's not about stam sustain, it's about how cheap it is for me to spam fossilize on you with no drawbacks. Unless you're running super high regen above 2.5k and a big stampool(which obviously a mag class isn't) you're pretty much screwed after the 2nd fossilize aka dead. Runecage was obviously even worse due to the range.

Stam users already struggle with the slows and CCs due to the lack of removal and immunity. Mag users that aren't a templar are in an even worse state to deal with it. It totally destroys build diversity becase you have to have certain key features in your arsenal to deal with this ridiculous CC system. Which in the end, hurts the game, pisses people off and just leads it into it's own slow demise.

Sypherioth

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

(No one said you cant use root and stuns on different skills also and pair them? Afaik snare and stuns are different cd. Dodge roll also breaks snare so basicly break free and dodge roll should always be fine vs fossilize. And the dk has to be in your face to do this which is also it's weakness at the same time)

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

(Ever seen talon spam dk and see how much people cant break out of the root. Make sure you have the sustain… Also a stun back on the dk is defensive move to.)

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice. (RANGED!!!)

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed. (RANGED!!!!!)
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout. (RANGED!!!!)

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

Danklord

Theres a huge difference, having a 2.5k stun, then a 2.5k root pairing that together vs 2.7k stun and root + having 1 more skill to choose from. Because 1, you'd stun/root + dmg ability vs stun + root.

Sypherioth all you're doing is proving my point. You're basically saying "no1 says you cant sacrifice more of ur skill bar and rotation to get the same outcome." THATS THE POINT. The fact that 1 skill can do what normally 2 skills would do.

Rikumaru

haakira wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

1st of all if you are having issues with stam management on a magicka build you need to invest into stamina sustain. You can put a stamina rec glyph on one of your jewelry, you can use amberplasm which is a very popular magicka set for no CP for the very problem you are having and with the new high elf it gives roughly 200 stamina regen if you proc it on cooldown. Also if you are not a magicka sorc, you should be going vampire as it gives 10% stamina + magicka recovery and you have access to mist form which is 100% required especially in this snare meta. Also with mist you only need to break free and then mist form to get rid of the root which saves you stamina.

Now as for runecage, the reason why it was so OP was because magicka sorc is all about delayed burst. ZOS decided to place in a 28m ranged uncounterable CC for the class with the best delayed burst in the entire game. It's balanced on DK because it's got a shorter range and DK isn't about big burst unlike sorc. Also you are a templar which can remove roots with cleanse, so with all of the above I've mentioned and as a templar you really shouldn't be having issues with stamina management.

Either you never played DK or you don't know what your talking about. I play mDK very often and I agree with Fossilize being completely OP. It's not about stam sustain, it's about how cheap it is for me to spam fossilize on you with no drawbacks. Unless you're running super high regen above 2.5k and a big stampool(which obviously a mag class isn't) you're pretty much screwed after the 2nd fossilize aka dead. Runecage was obviously even worse due to the range.

Stam users already struggle with the slows and CCs due to the lack of removal and immunity. Mag users that aren't a templar are in an even worse state to deal with it. It totally destroys build diversity becase you have to have certain key features in your arsenal to deal with this ridiculous CC system. Which in the end, hurts the game, pisses people off and just leads it into it's own slow demise.

I've played every single class in this game except magplar. Every class is supposed to have it's strengths, so what if fossilize is better than most other CC's? Other classes have aspects they are also best in too. You don't need super high regen to be able to sustain your stamina as a magicka class, I'm able to do it perfectly fine on my mag nb without investing into any stamina recovery or even going vampire in BG's. The CC system outside of snares and roots is perfect. It punishes players for not managing their resources correctly which is exactly how it should be. All that needs to be done is shuffle snare immunity buffs, major expedition skill buffs and magicka players to get their own skill for snare immunity.

haakira

Sypherioth wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

(No one said you cant use root and stuns on different skills also and pair them? Afaik snare and stuns are different cd. Dodge roll also breaks snare so basicly break free and dodge roll should always be fine vs fossilize. And the dk has to be in your face to do this which is also it's weakness at the same time)

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

(Ever seen talon spam dk and see how much people cant break out of the root. Make sure you have the sustain… Also a stun back on the dk is defensive move to.)

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice. (RANGED!!!)

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed. (RANGED!!!!!)
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout. (RANGED!!!!)

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

The argument that fossilize is balanced due to the 8m range is not acceptable I'm afraid. There's a lot of things in the game that are OP and are 8m range. It doesn't take that much of an effort to get close to someone. There's chains, slows, leap. So many gapclosers without cooldowns, it's a non-issue which has 0 weight to the argument.

The fact that it destroys the stampool of whoever it is cast against to deal with 2 CC's every 6 seconds for a minimal cost is not. Also, it's often very delayed to break out of it as well. Again, I play mDK, I've used it countless times. It can be abused very easily.

Sypherioth

Danklord wrote: »

Theres a huge difference, having a 2.5k stun, then a 2.5k root pairing that together vs 2.7k stun and root + having 1 more skill to choose from. Because 1, you'd stun/root + dmg ability vs stun + root.

Sypherioth all you're doing is proving my point. You're basically saying "no1 says you cant sacrifice more of ur skill bar and rotation to get the same outcome." THATS THE POINT. The fact that 1 skill can do what normally 2 skills would do.

Dizzying swing: Snipe dmg and stun if placed right. Pare with sneak or stealth for fun… This is just as rediculous...

Danklord

Man, im sorry but you're very ignorant. If im not wrong, NB stealth removes all debuffs right? So first off you don't need to break out of the root ever, why? Because your stealth removes u from the fight + it removes the debuffs from the root and all dots, theres a few exceptions, but as far as i know, Dks spells doesn't fall under that.

Theres a difference between stealth vs teleport vs purify and wardens that has nothing i think. In teleports case you're still rooted, in templars case you remove the root but you're in for a treat (same with teleport). But with stealth you can just run away. How can you compare this?

You clearly do not play the other classes vs Dks that much or you play in a very low mmr where new ppl havn't figured out whats OP yet.

CC outside roots and snares is perfect? Besides the fact that you sometimes needs to breakout twice, cuz it didn't register the first time but u still lost the stamina? Or that sometimes ur breakout button doesn't work? Or when they game can't decide if you will die or break out first so you're stuck and just die out of nowhere? Perfect you say.

Also since you're magNB your ESCAPE is used by ur highest pool of resources. This is view is so skewed it can get.

Danklord

Sypherioth wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Theres a huge difference, having a 2.5k stun, then a 2.5k root pairing that together vs 2.7k stun and root + having 1 more skill to choose from. Because 1, you'd stun/root + dmg ability vs stun + root.

Sypherioth all you're doing is proving my point. You're basically saying "no1 says you cant sacrifice more of ur skill bar and rotation to get the same outcome." THATS THE POINT. The fact that 1 skill can do what normally 2 skills would do.

Dizzying swing: Snipe dmg and stun if placed right. Pare with sneak or stealth for fun… This is just as rediculous...

You're gonna have to elaborate because i don't understand what this means? That if u dizzy u can also get a snipe hit in? Or what u mean exactly. Or if u stealth and u use these 2 u can get them before ur outside stealth?

Edit: You can BLOCK those to avoid the CC, can u block fossilize?

Sypherioth

[/quote]

The argument that fossilize is balanced due to the 8m range is not acceptable I'm afraid. There's a lot of things in the game that are OP and are 8m range. It doesn't take that much of an effort to get close to someone. There's chains, slows, leap. So many gapclosers without cooldowns, it's a non-issue which has 0 weight to the argument.

The fact that it destroys the stampool of whoever it is cast against to deal with 2 CC's every 6 seconds for a minimal cost is not. Also, it's often very delayed to break out of it as well. Again, I play mDK, I've used it countless times. It can be abused very easily. [/quote]

Well I never get killed because of a fossilize on any of my builds much. Runecage is there alot more often still. On my dk with 1hand and shield I pretty much have the same result as with fossilize and dw. I like 1hand shield a bit more beacuase I even get 2 great skills. Ranged charge with stun (this realy kills when charge 50% hp target) And reverberating strike smash. Applying stun and defile. so nice. so OP when used right.

About delayed to break free. I have that on all stuns that occur on me at times. But realy I never had trouble with fossilize. only trouble when delayed yes. But maybe its because i play dodge roll instead of heavy armor. Break free and dodge roll works fine.

haakira

Rikumaru wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

1st of all if you are having issues with stam management on a magicka build you need to invest into stamina sustain. You can put a stamina rec glyph on one of your jewelry, you can use amberplasm which is a very popular magicka set for no CP for the very problem you are having and with the new high elf it gives roughly 200 stamina regen if you proc it on cooldown. Also if you are not a magicka sorc, you should be going vampire as it gives 10% stamina + magicka recovery and you have access to mist form which is 100% required especially in this snare meta. Also with mist you only need to break free and then mist form to get rid of the root which saves you stamina.

Now as for runecage, the reason why it was so OP was because magicka sorc is all about delayed burst. ZOS decided to place in a 28m ranged uncounterable CC for the class with the best delayed burst in the entire game. It's balanced on DK because it's got a shorter range and DK isn't about big burst unlike sorc. Also you are a templar which can remove roots with cleanse, so with all of the above I've mentioned and as a templar you really shouldn't be having issues with stamina management.

Either you never played DK or you don't know what your talking about. I play mDK very often and I agree with Fossilize being completely OP. It's not about stam sustain, it's about how cheap it is for me to spam fossilize on you with no drawbacks. Unless you're running super high regen above 2.5k and a big stampool(which obviously a mag class isn't) you're pretty much screwed after the 2nd fossilize aka dead. Runecage was obviously even worse due to the range.

Stam users already struggle with the slows and CCs due to the lack of removal and immunity. Mag users that aren't a templar are in an even worse state to deal with it. It totally destroys build diversity becase you have to have certain key features in your arsenal to deal with this ridiculous CC system. Which in the end, hurts the game, pisses people off and just leads it into it's own slow demise.

I've played every single class in this game except magplar. Every class is supposed to have it's strengths, so what if fossilize is better than most other CC's? Other classes have aspects they are also best in too. You don't need super high regen to be able to sustain your stamina as a magicka class, I'm able to do it perfectly fine on my mag nb without investing into any stamina recovery or even going vampire in BG's. The CC system outside of snares and roots is perfect. It punishes players for not managing their resources correctly which is exactly how it should be. All that needs to be done is shuffle snare immunity buffs, major expedition skill buffs and magicka players to get their own skill for snare immunity.

So the CC system is perfect. Besides Snares and Roots. Which makes 2 out 4 CC's. But it's perfect. OK.

The system is far more punishing to the use of defensive resources (break free, stun, sprint) than it is to CC someone. The balance is far from OK. Add in resource poisons and things escalate much further. It's not a fair trade. It's very easy to abuse CC.
And where does that leave us? On a slow moving, non responsive, boring type of combat that is the current display of Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

Danklord

Haakira
The argument that fossilize is balanced due to the 8m range is not acceptable I'm afraid. There's a lot of things in the game that are OP and are 8m range. It doesn't take that much of an effort to get close to someone. There's chains, slows, leap. So many gapclosers without cooldowns, it's a non-issue which has 0 weight to the argument.

The fact that it destroys the stampool of whoever it is cast against to deal with 2 CC's every 6 seconds for a minimal cost is not. Also, it's often very delayed to break out of it as well. Again, I play mDK, I've used it countless times. It can be abused very easily.

Sypherioth
Well I never get killed because of a fossilize on any of my builds much. Runecage is there alot more often still. On my dk with 1hand and shield I pretty much have the same result as with fossilize and dw. I like 1hand shield a bit more beacuase I even get 2 great skills. Ranged charge with stun (this realy kills when charge 50% hp target) And reverberating strike smash. Applying stun and defile. so nice. so OP when used right.

About delayed to break free. I have that on all stuns that occur on me at times. But realy I never had trouble with fossilize. only trouble when delayed yes. But maybe its because i play dodge roll instead of heavy armor. Break free and dodge roll works fine.

Again this is the problem. You shouldn't have to force everyone in to a build that relies on working against CC. It kills build diversity, it kills the fun out of the game. If it all boils down to have the perfect build to counter everything, then whats the point of the 99.999% of all the other sets? Theres like 500 sets in the game. So we should only play with like what, 6 of them?

You have a build that works against fossilize, good. But if you need to BUILD SETS to counter ONE SPELL, then theres a huge problem.

How the hell you die to runecage is probably a bigger mystery than the Davinci code. You're fine with a guaranteed unavoidable double CC breakout spell, but runecage, a spell you can easily dodgeroll, is ur biggest issue?

Sypherioth

haakira wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

haakira wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Danklord wrote: »

Riku, the point is. That would be fine if it wasn't that they could deal so much dmg on top off it. If they were just all in general weaker than everyone but they were a bit stronger in the CC department, sure. But thats not the case. They can blow you up in mere seconds. And having a double CC ontop of that is far to strong. And its far to strong because of how strong CCs are in general. Lets say breaking out of a stun only cost 1k stamina. Now with the same stam regen and everything, breaking out of a CC wouldn't be a problem, besides locking you down for a second or so for you to break out.

But the OP part comes in when a class with the same dmg as you, can lock you down with double CC and you can only CC him once. So lets say you are a magicka player, what would the average stam for you be in a BG for example, 11-12k? Some cases you can bump it to 14k, which i did on my magplar.

That means i can in a row break out of 3 CCs. So if a DK attacks me, fossilize, thats 2/3 of my stamina. After 6seconds he does the same again, i can break out of the stun but i can't break out of the root. Root lets go off me, he does fossilize again and now im fully stunned and rooted and most likely dead.

That is to strong, because its something that goes outside the normal CC. Every other CC in the game is either, a fear, a stun or a root. All of these costs 1 break out. And has a 6 second cooldown. But then theres 1 guy with 1 spell that does 2 of these.

Imagine this, what if the Bow skill that does push back and stun, instead it pushed you back for 2 whole seconds, then stunned you. That would require you to do as with Dks CC, break out twice.

Because the thing is in this game is that movement is key, where you place yourself, when you dodgeroll etc is key compartments to being a good player. If 1 class can strip away the control of your char + your movement in one spell, on top of doing massive dmg on you, theres something not right.

Ima end this with comparing to runecage.
Fossilize - Guaranteed stun + root + dmg, can't be dodged, cant be blocked. This is still untouched
Old Runecage - Guaranteed stun + dmg, can't be dodged, can't be blocked. This was nerfed.
New Runecage - Stun guaranteed if player doesn't dodge within timeframe. Dmg only guaranteed if the player doesn't dodge within timefram + doesn't breakout.

If you think Runecage was OP, you should have no problems thinking Fossilize is OP.

1st of all if you are having issues with stam management on a magicka build you need to invest into stamina sustain. You can put a stamina rec glyph on one of your jewelry, you can use amberplasm which is a very popular magicka set for no CP for the very problem you are having and with the new high elf it gives roughly 200 stamina regen if you proc it on cooldown. Also if you are not a magicka sorc, you should be going vampire as it gives 10% stamina + magicka recovery and you have access to mist form which is 100% required especially in this snare meta. Also with mist you only need to break free and then mist form to get rid of the root which saves you stamina.

Now as for runecage, the reason why it was so OP was because magicka sorc is all about delayed burst. ZOS decided to place in a 28m ranged uncounterable CC for the class with the best delayed burst in the entire game. It's balanced on DK because it's got a shorter range and DK isn't about big burst unlike sorc. Also you are a templar which can remove roots with cleanse, so with all of the above I've mentioned and as a templar you really shouldn't be having issues with stamina management.

Either you never played DK or you don't know what your talking about. I play mDK very often and I agree with Fossilize being completely OP. It's not about stam sustain, it's about how cheap it is for me to spam fossilize on you with no drawbacks. Unless you're running super high regen above 2.5k and a big stampool(which obviously a mag class isn't) you're pretty much screwed after the 2nd fossilize aka dead. Runecage was obviously even worse due to the range.

Stam users already struggle with the slows and CCs due to the lack of removal and immunity. Mag users that aren't a templar are in an even worse state to deal with it. It totally destroys build diversity becase you have to have certain key features in your arsenal to deal with this ridiculous CC system. Which in the end, hurts the game, pisses people off and just leads it into it's own slow demise.

I've played every single class in this game except magplar. Every class is supposed to have it's strengths, so what if fossilize is better than most other CC's? Other classes have aspects they are also best in too. You don't need super high regen to be able to sustain your stamina as a magicka class, I'm able to do it perfectly fine on my mag nb without investing into any stamina recovery or even going vampire in BG's. The CC system outside of snares and roots is perfect. It punishes players for not managing their resources correctly which is exactly how it should be. All that needs to be done is shuffle snare immunity buffs, major expedition skill buffs and magicka players to get their own skill for snare immunity.

So the CC system is perfect. Besides Snares and Roots. Which makes 2 out 4 CC's. But it's perfect. OK.

The system is far more punishing to the use of defensive resources (break free, stun, sprint) than it is to CC someone. The balance is far from OK. Add in resource poisons and things escalate much further. It's not a fair trade. It's very easy to abuse CC.
And where does that leave us? On a slow moving, non responsive, boring type of combat that is the current display of Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

Make sure you have people to purge *** and all that. Dont try 1 v 5 anymore because sooner or later one of those 5 has a root or stun.

Many builds have counters in cyro. It's normal you get wrcked by some people in pvp.

Best example is a 4 man group farming ap in tower without problems. I come in with my dot DK and they had to go on defensive. why is that you think? because im OP?? No because I counter heavy armor heal crap out of all builds. especially with reverberating. All I did was make sure they had go defensive and later they died.

If you get stunned a few times and you cant break free anymore then you have screwed it because 6 seconds is alot in pvp. Or you found your nemesis with the better build to counter you. Anyways the cd on snares and stuns should be enough.

6 seconds with 1500-2000k stam regen is 4500-6000 stam no? I dont see the issue. That should be enough for another break free?? But ofcourse there are people who use builds that drain stamina. That reduce stamina regeneration etc. They are the counter for what you describe as OP.

Rikumaru

Danklord wrote: »

Man, im sorry but you're very ignorant. If im not wrong, NB stealth removes all debuffs right? So first off you don't need to break out of the root ever, why? Because your stealth removes u from the fight + it removes the debuffs from the root and all dots, theres a few exceptions, but as far as i know, Dks spells doesn't fall under that.

Theres a difference between stealth vs teleport vs purify and wardens that has nothing i think. In teleports case you're still rooted, in templars case you remove the root but you're in for a treat (same with teleport). But with stealth you can just run away. How can you compare this?

You clearly do not play the other classes vs Dks that much or you play in a very low mmr where new ppl havn't figured out whats OP yet.

CC outside roots and snares is perfect? Besides the fact that you sometimes needs to breakout twice, cuz it didn't register the first time but u still lost the stamina? Or that sometimes ur breakout button doesn't work? Or when they game can't decide if you will die or break out first so you're stuck and just die out of nowhere? Perfect you say.

Also since you're magNB your ESCAPE is used by ur highest pool of resources. This is view is so skewed it can get.

What year are you living in, because cloak hasn't removed debuffs for YEARS. The only thing it negates is DOT's while you are in cloak (and force misses when entering cloak). Also telling me I'm in a low mmr when you don't know how to manage your stamina, ok buddy. I've told you plenty of counters / ways to manage your resources vs CCs but you clearly aren't going to take a single piece of advice so have fun out there dealing with DKs.