Top 10 reasons why ZOS don't cares about tanks

MartiniDaniels

So with new backstabs that come to tanks in Update 21, I just wanna summarize all "gifts" we (tanks) got in last year and ask if there is developer responsible for PVE tanking.

1. Lack of new competitive tanking sets. All new dlc dungeon heavy sets are for PVP only, nothing is comparable to Alkosh/Ebon/Dragon/PA/Torug's in terms of PVE utility. Even CR where all roles received BiS sets, tanks received Galenwe which is useful only as source of welkynar style material;
2. Nerf of time-stop. Templar tanks are made even less viable then before in aspect which is must have for any tank - aoe immobilization; (NB tanks hit too, but they are dead anyway)
3. Nerf of S&B enchantments, which affects everyone - despite class reps concerns, ZOS nerfs both crusher/weakening in half and even if you use ice/lightning/bow backbar for crusher, your weakening enchantment will be nerfed anyway;
4. Introduction of Nord as ultimate race for competitive tanking. Before U21 any race could perform on level comparable to argonian, it was harder but still doable. Now any non-nord tank will be always secondary choice. Good way to "diversity", ZOS. And btw nord dps are wrecked too by this, why you need to pigeonhole whole race to one unpopular hole, idk.
5. Removal of passive dodge caused removal of Tava's favor and tanks relying on evasion to generate ultimate;
6. NB tanking got consecutive nerfs with every update for unknown reason. Probably it's easier to destroy non-meta class-role then to keep it competitive;
7. Changes to shield mechanics made DK even better then other classes, because DK is natural group shield spammer (obsidian shards proc helping hands, ultigain, minor berserker, major mending why not to add improved shield to that). Good way to "diversity", ZOS;
8. Lack of options for magicka tanks. All solutions proposed by community are totally ignored, ice staff remains backbar only weapon, you can't tank effectively without S&B even in dlc vets, not to mention trials; Good way to diversity...
9. Alkosh while being number 1 set for tanking, has totally useless 2-4 set bonuses. So devs rebalance old PVP sets nobody used before, but set which is used by all trial tanks for years remains a pure dps set for 2-4 bonuses. Why it can't be changed from crit/slayer/WD to stamina/aegis/stamregen nobody knows - probably because tanks are selfless martyrs and they should suffer for group's sake;
10. Introduction of ton of ranged interrupt mechanics in dungeons, while both options for ranged interrupt for dps groupmates are inferior morphs which no dps will select. And while magicka classes can sacrifice force pulse for crushing shock, stamina are out of options because poison injection morph is essential for any pve stamdps. Introduction of unchainable/untauntable mobs which are not even marked as elite, it's simply stupid design choice. So after each wipe you need to explain dps what they should do;

TL;DR: dev's vision is all tanks need to be of one class, of one race, use exactly same sets, be nerfed regularly and be teachers for dps about new interrupt/un-cc'able mobs mechanics.
P.S. don't get me wrong, i love tanking, i love DK as class, 3 of my 8 toons are dragon knights. But I'm tired to do the same each day, each dungeon, each trial, especially when it becomes annoying.

Starlock

I think you are confusing player-imposed tanking norms with the developer’s vision.

MartiniDaniels

Starlock wrote: »

I think you are confusing player-imposed tanking norms with the developer’s vision.

Vision must reflect reality. Devs want dps to care more about mechanics and less about dps. Answer from community - we will bypass this mechanics, tanks just need to keep us alive/buff/debuff to make nuking possible.

Itzmichi

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So with new backstabs that come to tanks in Update 21, I just wanna summarize all "gifts" we (tanks) got in last year and ask if there is developer responsible for PVE tanking.

1. Lack of new competitive tanking sets. All new dlc dungeon heavy sets are for PVP only, nothing is comparable to Alkosh/Ebon/Dragon/PA/Torug's in terms of PVE utility. Even CR where all roles received BiS sets, tanks received Galenwe which is useful only as source of welkynar style material;
2. Nerf of time-stop. Templar tanks are made even less viable then before in aspect which is must have for any tank - aoe immobilization; (NB tanks hit too, but they are dead anyway)
3. Nerf of S&B enchantments, which affects everyone - despite class reps concerns, ZOS nerfs both crusher/weakening in half and even if you use ice/lightning/bow backbar for crusher, your weakening enchantment will be nerfed anyway;
4. Introduction of Nord as ultimate race for competitive tanking. Before U21 any race could perform on level comparable to argonian, it was harder but still doable. Now any non-nord tank will be always secondary choice. Good way to "diversity", ZOS. And btw nord dps are wrecked too by this, why you need to pigeonhole whole race to one unpopular hole, idk.
5. Removal of passive dodge caused removal of Tava's favor and tanks relying on evasion to generate ultimate;
6. NB tanking got consecutive nerfs with every update for unknown reason. Probably it's easier to destroy non-meta class-role then to keep it competitive;
7. Changes to shield mechanics made DK even better then other classes, because DK is natural group shield spammer (obsidian shards proc helping hands, ultigain, minor berserker, major mending why not to add improved shield to that). Good way to "diversity", ZOS;
8. Lack of options for magicka tanks. All solutions proposed by community are totally ignored, ice staff remains backbar only weapon, you can't tank effectively without S&B even in dlc vets, not to mention trials; Good way to diversity...
9. Alkosh while being number 1 set for tanking, has totally useless 2-4 set bonuses. So devs rebalance old PVP sets nobody used before, but set which is used by all trial tanks for years remains a pure dps set for 2-4 bonuses. Why it can't be changed from crit/slayer/WD to stamina/aegis/stamregen nobody knows - probably because tanks are selfless martyrs and they should suffer for group's sake;
10. Introduction of ton of ranged interrupt mechanics in dungeons, while both options for ranged interrupt for dps groupmates are inferior morphs which no dps will select. And while magicka classes can sacrifice force pulse for crushing shock, stamina are out of options because poison injection morph is essential for any pve stamdps. Introduction of unchainable/untauntable mobs which are not even marked as elite, it's simply stupid design choice. So after each wipe you need to explain dps what they should do;

TL;DR: dev's vision is all tanks need to be of one class, of one race, use exactly same sets, be nerfed regularly and be teachers for dps about new interrupt/un-cc'able mobs mechanics.
P.S. don't get me wrong, i love tanking, i love DK as class, 3 of my 8 toons are dragon knights. But I'm tired to do the same each day, each dungeon, each trial, especially when it becomes annoying.

That's how games working, it's the same in any mmo there will be best sets and there will the most suited class/race to do the job. How many sets you want? The won't make you a better tank.

And to be honest I don't need a new tanking set every dlc just to spend billions on gold in a year to be more competitive.. I mean getting the sets mentioned above is a pain and expensive already.

I don't feel like they do not care.

Time stop is a skill beyond broken imo, I'd never use it on a tank regardless of class. There is the melee taunt, the range taunt, taunt from the frost staff and blockade to slow mobs down if nessecary, it is a skill highly abused in pvp nothing more.

Regarding the Nord, I don't get your complain, on the other hand you say you want diversity, then they introduce a strong alternative to the long meta argonian tank and all you say is that it sucks cause now you will be second choice. I tell you this Nord sustain is cancer compared to argonian, definitely harder to play then argonian in long fights. So it's basically like the nb of tanks, coming with a strong benefit but definitely need l2p and on the cost of sustain.

Lord_Eomer

Point # 2, hardly PVE tanks uses this. Mostly PVP ball groups will be affected from change.

There are many alternative abilities available as well.

Point #3, you are suggesting something but not understand balance. They just nerf it maintain balance with 2H / Staff enchantments.

VaranisArano

Have you considered that tanks are subject to the same "let's change the meta so everyone regrinds" method of Horizontal Progression as damage dealers and healers are?

Because that's what most of your changes boil down to. ZOS shook the snowglobe every update and tanks have to adapt. Everyone gets to run the rat race to be meta again.

Anrose

Thought this was going to be one of @adirondack ‘s David Letterman style posts. Was disappointed.

MartiniDaniels

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Point # 2, hardly tanks uses this. Mostly PVP ball groups will b3 affected

Point #3, you are suggesting something but not understand balance. They just nerf to bring to balanced with 2H / Staff enchantments.

You can't double bar 2H weapons on tanks, first bar will be S&B always. And there were several solutions proposed, like remove enchantment from shield and keep full enchantment on weapon. You may see ton of threads on this issue, and even Liofa raised that question. But as we see from devs feedback they only want to nerf DW in PVE and S&B in PVP. PVE tanking is out of their concern.
And this in nerf not only for tanks, for everybody. Weakening enchantment will be halved, you will receive notably more damage from boss as dps or healer. If healer runs weakening sacrificing his sustain there will be less orbs for you as dps. No matter how you turn this and what role you play, you are nerfed by this one way or another, cause your support was nerfed.

Lord_Eomer

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Point # 2, hardly tanks uses this. Mostly PVP ball groups will b3 affected

Point #3, you are suggesting something but not understand balance. They just nerf to bring to balanced with 2H / Staff enchantments.

You can't double bar 2H weapons on tanks, first bar will be S&B always. And there were several solutions proposed, like remove enchantment from shield and keep full enchantment on weapon. You may see ton of threads on this issue, and even Liofa raised that question. But as we see from devs feedback they only want to nerf DW in PVE and S&B in PVP. PVE tanking is out of their concern.
And this in nerf not only for tanks, for everybody. Weakening enchantment will be halved, you will receive notably more damage from boss as dps or healer. If healer runs weakening sacrificing his sustain there will be less orbs for you as dps. No matter how you turn this and what role you play, you are nerfed by this one way or another, cause your support was nerfed.

Currently its DPS meta, mostly PVE boss get killed faster to avoid mechanics.

I do not see problem with S & B enchantment nerf, its currently abused in PVP and losing small amount of debuff on front bar is not a big deal. Its about balance and players need to understand and learn about balance.

If @Liofa is complaining about S & B nerf (as you mentioned) then I am worried for ZOS having Class Rep not supporting balance changes.

MartiniDaniels

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you considered that tanks are subject to the same "let's change the meta so everyone regrinds" method of Horizontal Progression as damage dealers and healers are?

Because that's what most of your changes boil down to. ZOS shook the snowglobe every update and tanks have to adapt. Everyone gets to run the rat race to be meta again.

I'm happy to adapt, change and try new. Here is quite opposite nothing new, (I use ice on backbar anyway), only nerfs. Problem is that there is no horizontal progression for tanks, all sets are several years old, and all alternative classes/sets are nerfed. If race change to nord is progression.. No, it's cash grab.

MartiniDaniels

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Point # 2, hardly tanks uses this. Mostly PVP ball groups will b3 affected

Point #3, you are suggesting something but not understand balance. They just nerf to bring to balanced with 2H / Staff enchantments.

You can't double bar 2H weapons on tanks, first bar will be S&B always. And there were several solutions proposed, like remove enchantment from shield and keep full enchantment on weapon. You may see ton of threads on this issue, and even Liofa raised that question. But as we see from devs feedback they only want to nerf DW in PVE and S&B in PVP. PVE tanking is out of their concern.
And this in nerf not only for tanks, for everybody. Weakening enchantment will be halved, you will receive notably more damage from boss as dps or healer. If healer runs weakening sacrificing his sustain there will be less orbs for you as dps. No matter how you turn this and what role you play, you are nerfed by this one way or another, cause your support was nerfed.

Currently its DPS meta, mostly PVE boss get killed faster to avoid mechanics.

I do not see problem with S & B enchantment nerf, its currently abused in PVP and losing small amount of debuff on front bar is not a big deal. Its about balance and players need to understand and learn about balance.

If @Liofa is complaining about S & B nerf (as you mentionee) then I am worried for ZOS having Class Rep not supporting balance changes.

Bro, I remember you from redguard discussion, you said that you are happy with redguard changes (though redguard is moved to pve backstage by U21), then you are probably happy that you will receive more damage from boss. Or tanks will drop ebon for torugs and you will have less health and so on. If you are happy to be nerfed, ok, nothing to argue about.

VaranisArano

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Have you considered that tanks are subject to the same "let's change the meta so everyone regrinds" method of Horizontal Progression as damage dealers and healers are?

Because that's what most of your changes boil down to. ZOS shook the snowglobe every update and tanks have to adapt. Everyone gets to run the rat race to be meta again.

I'm happy to adapt, change and try new. Here is quite opposite nothing new, (I use ice on backbar anyway), only nerfs. Problem is that there is no horizontal progression for tanks, all sets are several years old, and all alternative classes/sets are nerfed. If race change to nord is progression.. No, it's cash grab.

Mmm, I'd say that most of horizontal progression is a cash grab of one sort or another.

The point of horizontal progression, after all, is to keep you playing the game. Its a cycle of nerfs/adjustments that change the meta so that you have to regrind in order to be meta again. It deliberately makes you unsatisfied with your character so you'll regrind in order to be satisfied again.

That grind can come in terms of time, in-game gold, or actual money for things like race changes or buying new content. Most importantly, it keeps most players playing the game longer that they otherwise would if they were satisfied, got bored, and left, which is money for ZOS over the whole population.

This update, the cash grab is particularly obvious, because racial changes are monetized in a way that, say, tanking gear like Tava's Blessing was not.

But I do hope you'll note that you could put together a list like this for all types of healers and DDs. Not just tanks. That's because the constant nerfs/changes are part of horizontal progression (or cash grabs, if you prefer), which ZOS does to everyone who cares about the meta.

In short, I think this is a feature, not a bug. Its working as intended. In future updates, we'll continue to see more changes to tanking (along with everything else) - not necessarily because it makes tanking better - but rather because it shakes up the tanking meta and gets tanks to chase the carrot of the new meta.

SirMewser

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Point # 2, hardly PVE tanks uses this. Mostly PVP ball groups will be affected from change.

There are many alternative abilities available as well.

Point #3, you are suggesting something but not understand balance. They just nerf it maintain balance with 2H / Staff enchantments.

As someone who isn't apart of the conversation till now, since you gave me reason, I'll tell you. Point number 3 is an absolutely inadvertent nerf of collateral damage that was oversighted. The Devs are aware and admitted this several times.

The issue derived from wanting to tone down DW as a total of 4 (not limited, to all infused) enchants could set off like a macro to just a few weapon abilities among other things.

Just because numbers are the same or of a proportion to each other in text/tooltip, doesn't define balance in actual play.

You try to justify it by suggesting someone doesn't know balance.

lolli42

doesn't care*

Ratzkifal

Templar tanks got a buff to their major ward/resolve buff.
Templar tanks got stamina regen when standing on their rune.
Templar tanks' bubble shield got a lot harder to destroy, although it got a damage nerf because of it.
Tanks got a great way to manage resources in the form of Meditate.
Most new monster helmets are tank options that help PvE tanks more than in pvp. Thurvokun being the most impactful.
Nords are the favored race in trials but Imperials are arguably better in 4man dungeons, where warhorn uptime has a lesser impact.

I don't think ZOS has it out for tanks more than they have for pretty much everything else in this game. I like to joke that ZOS doesn't see engaging in the justice system as valid gameplay, seeing how they treat Bosmer passives in U21.

iiYuki

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

I think you are confusing player-imposed tanking norms with the developer’s vision.

Vision must reflect reality. Devs want dps to care more about mechanics and less about dps. Answer from community - we will bypass this mechanics, tanks just need to keep us alive/buff/debuff to make nuking possible.

Devs dont give a *** about what players want, they just want to force us to play specifically how they want while still keeping the facade of "play how you want".

MartiniDaniels

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Templar tanks got a buff to their major ward/resolve buff.
Templar tanks got stamina regen when standing on their rune.
Templar tanks' bubble shield got a lot harder to destroy, although it got a damage nerf because of it.
Tanks got a great way to manage resources in the form of Meditate.
Most new monster helmets are tank options that help PvE tanks more than in pvp. Thurvokun being the most impactful.
Nords are the favored race in trials but Imperials are arguably better in 4man dungeons, where warhorn uptime has a lesser impact.

I don't think ZOS has it out for tanks more than they have for pretty much everything else in this game. I like to joke that ZOS doesn't see engaging in the justice system as valid gameplay, seeing how they treat Bosmer passives in U21.

This is all pointless if you can't immobilize mobs. So only way for templars is bow backbar, which is very risky thing, especially for templar tank who doesn't have burst healing like GDB.

I agree that this is not special dislike of tanks from ZOS side, it's simply part of ZOS balancing priority pyramid
1st: PVP
2nd: PVE DPS blades'n'sorcs (nerfs)
3rd: PVE DPS/healer Templars and Wardens
4th: DK tanks (keep them alive so persons above can do score runs)
5th: Warden tanks (because some reps and youtubers run them)
Not accounted in balance: RP and overland peasants | non-meta rabble and renegades
Purposefully oppressed: PVE Magdens, NB tanks

SoLooney

You talking about tanking in pve?
I'll admit, most of the tanking sets introduced since maw of lorkhaj are complete butt cheeks

But you have to look at what is gonna increase that dps the most. Its gonna be reaching full pen cap first off.

With sunderflame and nmg no longer giving pen, alkosh is now a must for mag and esp stam. What other sets out there are currently giving what alkosh does? Virtually nothing. So until a better pen debuff set comes out, alkosh is gonna be a staple for a long time

Torugs has also been huge for a long time to ensure that the crusher uptime is 100perc and not mention make it even stronger.

Then you got ebon to increase survivability and powerful assault for increased group damage.

Tanks in pve dont need survivability, they have healers for that too. Its gonna be all about buffing the group. With pen being number one priority then group damage and survivability

But most tanks arent complaining, they like not having to gold out new sets

Drako_Ei

Maybe next patch, tanks will be running around with ice staff front bar crushing, lightning staff backbar weakening, and inner fire + elemental drain + nox breath to replace piercing armor... of course we will have to drop our non utility skills, like green dragonblood, absorb magicka, etc, to keep the crushing and weakening debuffs This is how ZoS wants us to tank

MartiniDaniels

SoLooney wrote: »

You talking about tanking in pve?
I'll admit, most of the tanking sets introduced since maw of lorkhaj are complete butt cheeks

But you have to look at what is gonna increase that dps the most. Its gonna be reaching full pen cap first off.

With sunderflame and nmg no longer giving pen, alkosh is now a must for mag and esp stam. What other sets out there are currently giving what alkosh does? Virtually nothing. So until a better pen debuff set comes out, alkosh is gonna be a staple for a long time

Torugs has also been huge for a long time to ensure that the crusher uptime is 100perc and not mention make it even stronger.

Then you got ebon to increase survivability and powerful assault for increased group damage.

Tanks in pve dont need survivability, they have healers for that too. Its gonna be all about buffing the group. With pen being number one priority then group damage and survivability

But most tanks arent complaining, they like not having to gold out new sets

Where in my original post I'm say anything that tanking is too hard and requires some new survival set? We have ton of new survival sets but they are useless because tank sets should have utility and survival is secondary. ZOS may introduce new penetration set similar to alkosh, but which requires proper group positioning and proper timings. Olorime, rele and siroria are vastly superior to any other sets "on dummy" but they require additional actions and control from players and group in trial, to be effective. Why tanks are still stacked with stupid press X to debuff everything?

MartiniDaniels

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Maybe next patch, tanks will be running around with ice staff front bar crushing, lightning staff backbar weakening, and inner fire + elemental drain + nox breath to replace piercing armor... of course we will have to drop our non utility skills, like green dragonblood, absorb magicka, etc, to keep the crushing and weakening debuffs This is how ZoS wants us to tank

When i was leveling my last NB i went for icestaff/bow magtank for fast queue and to grab undaunted points, it was real fun, but i never tried to run him in things like vSCP /vMHK or trials of course. And sometimes people instantly left group on loading when they see lack of S&B and that mix of surprise attack/eledrain+inner fire to do same thing which S&B does with single cheap peck

D0PAMINE

Considering that I now Occupy the boss and debuff, buff the group, heal the group, and add at least 10% of the group DPS, one more thing added to the list like One Hand Enchant nerf won't even phase me.