Dk wings

JobooAGS

I want the community to evaluate the following and determine of this will be a buff to dks or a nerf

Wings base effect
Reflect ALL projectiles and negative effects assoicated with them cast at you from > 12 m for 6 seconds. Projectiles cast from 12 m or below will still function as normal.

Taleof2Cities

Sweetrolls

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

JobooAGS

Other

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

Never said it need a nerf or a buff, and Im well aware of the counters for wings

Draxys

Perfectly fine as is. The only thing I’d change is not applying the status effects of reflected things, but the only reason for that is snipe.

NyassaV

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

Sweetie... I'm sorry, just no. Don't worry snipe spammers aren't going to point blank so you'll still be able to use Wings for what it's meant for but you won't be abusing the crap out of the skill like now. Frankly wings is way to damn effective even if it costs a lot.

However 12 meters may not be enough but I think it might work

cpuScientist

I mean I would love if it reflected up to a certain point and then just reduced damage by some percentage say 15-30 when within some close range say 8-12 meters.

But I mean it's not something I would get in some kind of a Tiffy over. And whatever if stays as is. I main sorc and have built specifically to combat wings they only reflect frag and light attack and in that case I mean if they are on the same skill level as me we stalemate if they are better they kill me if they are worst I kill em. My poor magBlade hates em and even some of the best magBlades will lose to some of the mehest DK's if they spam wings which they can. I have. I heavy beaten very good magBlades with my magDK that I never really play and had old gear and CP to spend. Cause I kept wings up. And when they go melee I mean neat but magDK is far better melee.

Buuuuut that's for ZOS to deal with. I like wings I like where DK is at for the most part they are having their fun and ZOS will tune down whatever needs to be cause they are great at balancing.

jcm2606

Other

I'd be fine with OP's suggestion, or even it deflecting 2-3 projectiles per person.

The thing is, with wings in its current state, any nerf will push it from situationally useless to outright useless. Wings is *** amazing 1v1, but it's actually useless in 1v2 or above as it pretty much drops the instant you cast it, while giving basically nothing for the 3.5k magicka cost (at most it may give like an extra second of snare immunity, which is meh).

Shimmering, which I consider to be the most direct comparison to wings, refunds half the magicka cost by the time it runs out, on top of Major Heroism for a couple seconds. The difference is night and day, if DK could have Shimmering, I'd swap in a heartbeat.

If you guys want wings nerfed, it needs to be buffed elsewhere to compensate.

Heimpai

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

Yes, same as cloak..Yet many believe they should not be forced to slot a skill for a single type of player, so why should magblades be forced to run FP forcing them to drop something else on an already underperforming class?

Deep_01

Unlimited projectiles for 2-3 sec please

cpuScientist

Shimmering is really good no doubt no doubt. I would never on a DK trade it for wings. Snare immunity is rare. And wings is such a damn good way to get it. Look at the other snare immunity skills. Shuffle expensive and gives a defense buff, a good buff but it doesn't give immunity to certain types of damage. Then forward a little longer and gives a weak hot, but means I have to give up the o only Stam burst heal. Or I can use wings be immune to snipers make alot of the more popular classes quake. And mess up actively mess up the rotation of certain classes like stamPlar that usually rely on their spear stun.

shimmering is great and would really do well on a DK but I honestly rather be a heavy stamDK with access to rally and have snare removal. Or be a magDK that doesn't need mistform anymore because I can escape a bit better. While simultaneously straight shutting down classes.

Wings don't need a buff. I don't think they particularly need a nerf. I dislike being on a ranged class and fighting against it and shimmering especially since with gap closers being a thing range doesn't really mean as much as it used too. They can make the fight melee easily while still reflecting my ranged attacks but it is what it is. I don't want it nerfed but I would like if for magBlades sake at least cripple was not reflectable as it is ground based. But yeah whatever.

The Uninvited

Huge nerf

Damn... I meant buff

MartiniDaniels

Sweetroll people stole my sweetrolls

The Uninvited wrote: »

Damn... I meant buff

Well, we'll know who to blame if they ruin our wings

MartiniDaniels

Sweetroll people stole my sweetrolls

Come on, DK is MELEE class, no matter stam or magicka, without wings protection it will be useless outside of some troll-tanking builds. You may stay there doing phew-phew-phew, streaking away at first sight of danger, and DK is always in spotlight. You remove DK, there will be 45% of snipers, and 45% of troll-tanks in BGs, do you really want it?

Iskiab

Buff

Still think wings are OP. The issue as a ranged class is the reflected damage. I don’t mind them negating damage. Like if someone’s a bowtard and they’re out of stamina they can’t even heavy attack to get resources back, the only people who can are people using restoration or lightning staves.

I think make it so they absorb and don’t reflect damage is the most balanced solution.

Moonsorrow

Sweetroll people stole my sweetrolls

They took my sweetrolls..

JobooAGS

Other

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Come on, DK is MELEE class, no matter stam or magicka, without wings protection it will be useless outside of some troll-tanking builds. You may stay there doing phew-phew-phew, streaking away at first sight of danger, and DK is always in spotlight. You remove DK, there will be 45% of snipers, and 45% of troll-tanks in BGs, do you really want it?

Like I said, I think wings is in a good place and think it deserves neither a buff nor a nerf. Just felt like playing devils advocate on a wings change I saw posted

MartiniDaniels

Sweetroll people stole my sweetrolls

JobooAGS wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Come on, DK is MELEE class, no matter stam or magicka, without wings protection it will be useless outside of some troll-tanking builds. You may stay there doing phew-phew-phew, streaking away at first sight of danger, and DK is always in spotlight. You remove DK, there will be 45% of snipers, and 45% of troll-tanks in BGs, do you really want it?

Like I said, I think wings is in a good place and think it deserves neither a buff nor a nerf. Just felt like playing devils advocate on a wings change I saw posted

Oh, sorry, my bad. You know, basically when somebody create poll about wings, it's usually nerf by default so i reacted accordingly

JobooAGS

Other

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Come on, DK is MELEE class, no matter stam or magicka, without wings protection it will be useless outside of some troll-tanking builds. You may stay there doing phew-phew-phew, streaking away at first sight of danger, and DK is always in spotlight. You remove DK, there will be 45% of snipers, and 45% of troll-tanks in BGs, do you really want it?

Like I said, I think wings is in a good place and think it deserves neither a buff nor a nerf. Just felt like playing devils advocate on a wings change I saw posted

Oh, sorry, my bad. You know, basically when somebody create poll about wings, it's usually nerf by default so i reacted accordingly

Well survey says 32% buff and 21% nerf with one person saying they misvoted voting nerf instead of buff *shrugs*

Minalan

Nerf

Here's the deal, when the DK is spamming wings, they aren't doing any damage that GCD. I wouldn't take away that defense at all.

The issue is the *amount* of damage that can be reflected on top of the normal punishment a DK can dish out.

So, I wish there were some way to rework wings so that they aren't so punishing in a 1v1, but worked better against multiple opponents. If there are two or three people attacking a DK in a group fight, wings are completely useless.

rabidmyers

Sweetroll people stole my sweetrolls

yeah

Taleof2Cities

Sweetrolls

JobooAGS wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

Never said it need a nerf or a buff, and Im well aware of the counters for wings

That’s why I answered ‘sweetrolls’ in your poll.

bardx86

Nerf

Minalan wrote: »

Here's the deal, when the DK is spamming wings, they aren't doing any damage that GCD. I wouldn't take away that defense at all.

The issue is the *amount* of damage that can be reflected on top of the normal punishment a DK can dish out.

So, I wish there were some way to rework wings so that they aren't so punishing in a 1v1, but worked better against multiple opponents. If there are two or three people attacking a DK in a group fight, wings are completely useless.

Unless they are running sloads, skoria and caluurion’s

Strider__Roshin

Sweetrolls

Infinite projectiles with a 2 second duration.

Davadin

Nerf

NyassaV wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Wings doesn’t need a nerf. It has counterplay ... and costs a lot of magicka for DK players to even slot it.

If you don’t believe me, you can search the other thousands of forum threads on this topic.

Sweetie... I'm sorry, just no. Don't worry snipe spammers aren't going to point blank so you'll still be able to use Wings for what it's meant for but you won't be abusing the crap out of the skill like now. Frankly wings is way to damn effective even if it costs a lot.

However 12 meters may not be enough but I think it might work

"wings is way too damn effective" ROFLMAO....

Somebody's bitter.....

Hell I don't even slot this anymore in Cyrodiil and I' a stamDK. I'd rather have Absorb Magic from the 1HS line...

Toc de Malsvi

Buff

jcm2606 wrote: »

I'd be fine with OP's suggestion, or even it deflecting 2-3 projectiles per person.

The thing is, with wings in its current state, any nerf will push it from situationally useless to outright useless. Wings is *** amazing 1v1, but it's actually useless in 1v2 or above as it pretty much drops the instant you cast it, while giving basically nothing for the 3.5k magicka cost (at most it may give like an extra second of snare immunity, which is meh).

Shimmering, which I consider to be the most direct comparison to wings, refunds half the magicka cost by the time it runs out, on top of Major Heroism for a couple seconds. The difference is night and day, if DK could have Shimmering, I'd swap in a heartbeat.

If you guys want wings nerfed, it needs to be buffed elsewhere to compensate.

This just isn't true. Lets pretend only light attacks are reflected at 2k damage per light attack.

3.5k magicka is being turned into 4 light attacks at 4 different targets or 8k damage if they are 2k each. But it is not simply light attacking 4 different players at once, its also providing 100% damage mitigation to those light attacks.

It is really a 16k damage swing if only reflecting light attacks, 8k mitigation to light attacks and 8k worth of attacks, if reflecting four 7k snipes its a 56k swing. Against Snipes alone it becomes a 28k shield to snipes and a 28k projectile attack.

Wings truly is OP vs projectiles and is easily provable on a basic mathematical level. The weakness of wings isn't that it doesn't reflect enough, the weakness to wings is that it only reflects projectiles and projectiles are not prevalent enough across all classes and weapons to justify slotting wings in many situations. This makes wings very niche and makes DK's not want to use it except the rare occasions when they run into a high projectile based build.

Wings scales pretty well vs multiple opponents, problem is it is not a purely defensive mechanic and it does not scale as well as a pure defensive mechanic like Cloak or Dodge roll. DK's want to use wings like Cloak or Dodgeroll but do not consider than neither cloak or dodge roll return the attacks they mitigated back at the attacker. Sorc's can tell you that wings is much stronger versus Snipe than a Shield is, and while many DK's complain that the Warden's absorb is better, I can and have brute forced my way through Sorc shields and Warden Absorbs to get a kill. I simply cannot do that with wings.

Toc de Malsvi

Buff

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Come on, DK is MELEE class, no matter stam or magicka, without wings protection it will be useless outside of some troll-tanking builds. You may stay there doing phew-phew-phew, streaking away at first sight of danger, and DK is always in spotlight. You remove DK, there will be 45% of snipers, and 45% of troll-tanks in BGs, do you really want it?

There is no such thing as a MELEE class or a RANGED class. Some classes have more or less support for those playstyles but they all have ranged and melee aspects.

DK's are not the thing keeping Snipe in check, Snipe is quite weak outside of specific circumstances. Without the current glitch with Snipe there would be no more players using Snipe than 2 years ago. It is very easily mitigated. Pre-exploit abuse every good PVP'r laughed and derided anyone using snipe as simply bad, Snipe was and is a bad skill. It is overloaded on damage but easily mitigated, which means the damage is meaningless in 90% of situations.

Toc de Malsvi

Buff

Minalan wrote: »

Here's the deal, when the DK is spamming wings, they aren't doing any damage that GCD. I wouldn't take away that defense at all.

The issue is the *amount* of damage that can be reflected on top of the normal punishment a DK can dish out.

So, I wish there were some way to rework wings so that they aren't so punishing in a 1v1, but worked better against multiple opponents. If there are two or three people attacking a DK in a group fight, wings are completely useless.

Sort of, but not quite. Wing's aren't a shield, the reflect can and does do damage so they might actually be doing damage within the global CD that they cast it. It isn't actually useless, it is actually still and excellent trade of resource for mitigation+damage. The reason why people think its "useless" is because they are using wings like they would cloak and are angry that it doesn't provide immunity to 100% of all projectiles.

To summarize wings is not weak, wings is a niche defense-to-offense skill. Players want wings to not be a niche defense-to-offense skill but a more broadly useful defensive skill like cloak.

Toc de Malsvi

Buff

This kind of change would be a huge buff to the: "I want to be completely immune to any and all projectiles as I run away" crowd. And a Nerf to the players using wings only to gain a massive advantage verses builds highly reliant on hard hitting projectiles. Mag DK's are already at a huge advantage within 10m versus just about anyone, so I just don't see how this would be a bad change for Mag DK's. They give up a power versus the weakest PVP builds(within 12m), to gain power versus all the zerg spam outside 12m.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Totally depends on the scenario. I will say that the idea in theory of having a minimum range is intriguing. DKs are far and away the deadliest class if you get too close, this would reduce that advantage a bit.

TheYKcid

Other

I'd say it's contextual.

For the DK trying to 1vX, it's a big buff, since it now scales with the number of people attacking you, and you don't have to worry about it being overwhelmed by spammers.

In a 1v1 vs. a mag Sorc/NB it's a nerf in the sense that they now have the counterplay to close-in and deliver their damage—but wings is practically an I-win button against these classes at the moment, so adding more counterplay is a good direction for balance. On the flipslide, it might encourage that Sorc/NB to engage you (at melee distance, in your favour) instead of immediately streaking/cloaking away, which you won't be able to catch. I'd call that a buff to good gameplay.

Overall it's a healthy change for combat design and I'd support it.

Madcap_Symphony

Other

I would go for a slight rework to get the best of both worlds, firstly add the snare reduction to the base ability then redo the morphs. One morph keeps the reflect 4 projectiles, the other gets absorbe X projectiles.