whats more effective penetrations vs power

Noctus

so lets say im sitting at around 2500 spell/weapon power and 7000 penetration. if i give u the choice between 3000 penetration and 500 power which one would u choose ? how do i know which one would increase my dps (despite dummy parse which im usually doing when i wanna see whats more effective). ( keep in mind we are not overstacking on penetration for this example lets say target has 15 k resistance)

Narvuntien

Penetration increases your damage more than power unless you over penetrate but power also increases healing.

BRODY

You need 2350 pen in star+div Lover+ TFS(stam) for dungeon, 5849 in trials. And 10000-12000 pen in CP PvP, in Bg/noCP PvP you need 7-10k penetration.

Stx

If you have a lot of dots in your rotation does the value of penetration diminish?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

BRODY wrote: »

You need 2350 pen in star+div Lover+ TFS(stam) for dungeon, 5849 in trials. And 10000-12000 pen in CP PvP, in Bg/noCP PvP you need 7-10k penetration.

Need is a strong word, what makes you believe in these numbers?

Stx wrote: »

If you have a lot of dots in your rotation does the value of penetration diminish?

What would dots have anything to do with it? Unless you mean bleeds.

Sharee

Well. Ignoring all math and just taking common sense into account:

Power is always useful, penetration is only useful if your enemy has some resistance you could penetrate.
Power helps your healing and damage, penetration only helps your damage.

Assuming the game is balanced, penetration needs to give you more raw damage than power, to compensate for the disadvantages listed above(as long as the enemy has resistance you could penetrate ofc).

BRODY

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

BRODY wrote: »

You need 2350 pen in star+div Lover+ TFS(stam) for dungeon, 5849 in trials. And 10000-12000 pen in CP PvP, in Bg/noCP PvP you need 7-10k penetration.

Need is a strong word, what makes you believe in these numbers?

18200 resistance for all dun and trials mobs have. If you don't have const group, you not have always all debuffs in dundeon. You need more penetr. And than tfs set more best, not Berserking warrior. Alcosh+torug crusher+minor+major debuffs always have in trials group and you need have 5849 pen for all penetration in boss and adds. La passive get you 4884 mag penetration, if you manadd, get 965 pen from star. Stamina can use lover mundus +star.

In PvP penetration mustly best, not wd/sd, but you don't have all sets/passive in penetration, cose 1) any players have 16-20k resistance, and you lose effective from full penetration, but more players have 33k+ resistance. 2) You have second characteristics from your hero -sustayn and stats, they cannot be greatly sacrificed, especially in noCP PvP. So, than 7000-12000 is good balance in PvP.

idk

Narvuntien wrote: »

Penetration increases your damage more than power unless you over penetrate but power also increases healing.

And bosses have about 18k resistance. Players can have much more than that.

I think that is what Brody was saying but said impen which would be short for impenetrable which has nothing to do with armor penetration or resistance. Spell check can cause havoc.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

BRODY wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

BRODY wrote: »

You need 2350 pen in star+div Lover+ TFS(stam) for dungeon, 5849 in trials. And 10000-12000 pen in CP PvP, in Bg/noCP PvP you need 7-10k penetration.

Need is a strong word, what makes you believe in these numbers?

18200 resistance for all dun and trials mobs have. If you don't have const group, you not have always all debuffs in dundeon. You need more penetr. And than tfs set more best, not Berserking warrior. Alcosh+torug crusher+minor+major debuffs always have in trials group and you need have 5849 pen for all penetration in boss and adds. La passive get you 4884 mag penetration, if you manadd, get 965 pen from star. Stamina can use lover mundus +star.

In PvP penetration mustly best, not wd/sd, but you don't have all sets/passive in penetration, cose 1) any players have 16-20k resistance, and you lose effective from full penetration, but more players have 33k+ resistance. 2) You have second characteristics from your hero -sustayn and stats, they cannot be greatly sacrificed, especially in noCP PvP. So, than 7000-12000 is good balance in PvP.

what someone smarter then I has said on the subject at hand-

@Masel Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all.

@Masel Also, there are at Max 10 guilds on this planet that have the minmaxing requirements that you describe. And everyone wants to be like them and wastes 3747584 hours in mindless grinding for a 1% damage increase, for whatever reason..

AcadianPaladin

I agree with those saying get penetration to your target point. Beyond that go wep/spell damage. Here are some notes I've gathered that I find helpful when looking at setting up penetration:

Aim for 9k or below. Overland has 9.1k and dungeons/bosses have 18.2k. Use 9k or below as a base, even if you also have major breach because you will probably run dungeons/raids where monsters have that 18.2k. Light armor gets about 5k just from 5 light. Invest 2-4k penetration in to cp. Adjust depending on your group comp.

SpellPen:
5xLtArmor = 4900;
Gold 2h Sharpened wpn = 2750;
5xSpinners = 3450;
55CP in Spell Erosion = 4200.

WpnPen:
Spriggansx5=3370;
55CP in Piercing = 4200.

500 pen = +1% damage until your foe’s cap.

Basically, my stam chars use Spriggans + 55CP in Piercing. My mag chars use light armor passive + 55CP in Spell Erosion.

Ciovala

Yes, all the guides out there reflect perfect trial setups. Is there something I should check in combat metrics to see if my trial group is actually good enough for me to not have high pen?

kalimar44

My stam Dk dw/bow uses VO armor, Ay jewelry/daggers, and master bow(working on Ma bow). I use lovers stone and cp in piercing, and I find this is a good setup, I use to use spriggans, but in most dungeon groups you will be over pen. My setup is very well balanced between wd, crit, pen

susniand

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with those saying get penetration to your target point. Beyond that go wep/spell damage. Here are some notes I've gathered that I find helpful when looking at setting up penetration:

Aim for 9k or below. Overland has 9.1k and dungeons/bosses have 18.2k. Use 9k or below as a base, even if you also have major breach because you will probably run dungeons/raids where monsters have that 18.2k. Light armor gets about 5k just from 5 light. Invest 2-4k penetration in to cp. Adjust depending on your group comp.

SpellPen:
5xLtArmor = 4900;
Gold 2h Sharpened wpn = 2750;
5xSpinners = 3450;
55CP in Spell Erosion = 4200.

WpnPen:
Spriggansx5=3370;
55CP in Piercing = 4200.

500 pen = +1% damage until your foe’s cap.

Basically, my stam chars use Spriggans + 55CP in Piercing. My mag chars use light armor passive + 55CP in Spell Erosion.

Wouldnt it be more like 660 pen = 1% damage?

Iskiab

Penetration is better for dps, as long as you’re not sacrificing too much spell power to get it.

If you’re talking pvp you should have enough penetration to get through the min light armour builds.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

susniand wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with those saying get penetration to your target point. Beyond that go wep/spell damage. Here are some notes I've gathered that I find helpful when looking at setting up penetration:

Aim for 9k or below. Overland has 9.1k and dungeons/bosses have 18.2k. Use 9k or below as a base, even if you also have major breach because you will probably run dungeons/raids where monsters have that 18.2k. Light armor gets about 5k just from 5 light. Invest 2-4k penetration in to cp. Adjust depending on your group comp.

SpellPen:
5xLtArmor = 4900;
Gold 2h Sharpened wpn = 2750;
5xSpinners = 3450;
55CP in Spell Erosion = 4200.

WpnPen:
Spriggansx5=3370;
55CP in Piercing = 4200.

500 pen = +1% damage until your foe’s cap.

Basically, my stam chars use Spriggans + 55CP in Piercing. My mag chars use light armor passive + 55CP in Spell Erosion.

Wouldnt it be more like 660 pen = 1% damage?

in pve, mobs are technically level 50, so 500 penetration equals 1% damage.

MEBengalsFan2001

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with those saying get penetration to your target point. Beyond that go wep/spell damage. Here are some notes I've gathered that I find helpful when looking at setting up penetration:

Aim for 9k or below. Overland has 9.1k and dungeons/bosses have 18.2k. Use 9k or below as a base, even if you also have major breach because you will probably run dungeons/raids where monsters have that 18.2k. Light armor gets about 5k just from 5 light. Invest 2-4k penetration in to cp. Adjust depending on your group comp.

SpellPen:
5xLtArmor = 4900;
Gold 2h Sharpened wpn = 2750;
5xSpinners = 3450;
55CP in Spell Erosion = 4200.

WpnPen:
Spriggansx5=3370;
55CP in Piercing = 4200.

500 pen = +1% damage until your foe’s cap.

Basically, my stam chars use Spriggans + 55CP in Piercing. My mag chars use light armor passive + 55CP in Spell Erosion.

Does this also apply to all roles or just DPS?

Minno

Sharee wrote: »

Well. Ignoring all math and just taking common sense into account:

Power is always useful, penetration is only useful if your enemy has some resistance you could penetrate.
Power helps your healing and damage, penetration only helps your damage.

Assuming the game is balanced, penetration needs to give you more raw damage than power, to compensate for the disadvantages listed above(as long as the enemy has resistance you could penetrate ofc).

remember it used to, till it overshadowed raw dmg sources resulting in the nerf we have today.