Fair Snares - A Rework to the Snare System

Jules

I recently read and was inspired by @Ranger209 's snare post. In this, he questions whether reducing snares by battlespirit would be an effective way of fixing the snare issue, or whether this would be too overarching. I started commenting in his thread, but then realized I was typing an actual novel to reply to a one sentence OP and figured maybe this should be it's own instead.

TL/DR: I'd say I do not think reducing snares by battlespirit is the best way of managing them.

Instead,

1) All passive snares should be removed. Snares are more acceptable when the skill is designed around them. For instance, stampede, caltrops, and ash cloud/morphs are all fine. At the very least with these, someone is giving up bar space to accomplish the goal of snaring you. Seems a fair trade off. Skills like purify that have a massive AOE snare (templar main btw) are obnoxious and make no sense with the overall theme of the skill. It gives the snare just to give it.
2) All ranged snares should be removed. If you are going to be reducing someone's movement speed, you should have to be within a reasonable distance of them to have this kind of effect. It is well outside balanced risk/reward when you can snare someone from far distances.
3) Snares should absolutely be restricted to a major/minor system the way everything else is, to prevent them stacking and becoming unbearable. Give them two flat % amounts for major and minor, and allocate each skill that currently snares one or the other.
4) ZOS & the community should start looking at snares as CC's. CC being "crowd control". I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you are controlling a crowd/target when you are drastically reducing their movement speed. Often snares are not looked at as CC's. People generally only use the term for hard cc's such as fossilize or fear, skills that completely render the opponent useless and force them into an action. However, snares are by definition an attenuated version of this as they still cause limitations to the opponent and still force the opponent into an action, ie: purify, purge, shuffle, ect.
5) Ideally, just piggybacking off of the last point, there should be a snare immunity of some sort. Not sure what timing is fair, but the game should intrinsically protect players from 100% snare uptime through actual design instead of strictly through a few key skills. This likely would be very labor intensive from a game design point of view but would be worth imo.


Thoughts?

casparian

Just because it's easier to be negative than positive, two points I disagree with:

Ranged snares: I'm a committed melee player -- I generally tend to find ranged gameplay is not to my taste. That said, I do think kiting is and should be a real playstyle in this game. It's hard for me to imagine anything like classic mageblade play without Cripple, for instance.

Major/minor system: This is a popular suggestion and would probably make some things better, but I'm not sure it would make things a lot better. Snares are already almost divided out on a major/minor system (with most snares being either 60% or 40%), and there is already a snare overwrite system. A major/minor system would undoubtedly clarify and simplify things, but I'm not sure how noticeable the real-world difference would be.

Now my positive suggestion:

I think that the fact that snares (and CC in general) demand active counterplay is a good thing. While I wholeheartedly agree that there are currently too damn many snares (and too many skills that already do plenty also have a snare on them for no good reason), I also think that it's healthy for PVP that, if I'm not on my game, other opponents will be able to slow me down. If I'm snared, I have to do something about it -- I can't just shrug it off. That's a good thing.

The problem is that there are far too few ways of doing something about it. Every class and spec needs access to some variety of snare removal and a brief immunity window, for the same reason that we need a CC immunity window. I don't know if the best thing to do is to implement an internal cooldown on being snared (the way they implemented an internal cooldown on being rooted), or to add Forward Momentum-like functionality to a few class skills. But I do think that either one of those changes, when coupled with a pass at removing the snare from some skills, would make an enormous difference.

TL;DR Remove the snare from some skills, and add a brief snare immunity to some skills. Done.

Vapirko

I agree with most of this as well. I think it needs to be a balance of more/better options for counter play and removal along with vastly reduced access to them. I like your suggestion of removing it from ritual (also a templar main) but keepthing on skills like jabs would be acceptable. By far the biggest issue is large AOE snares and ranged snares, along with the constant uptime. I also don’t think it should be absolutely necessary to run shuffle or FM on every build, it gets stale and boring. So either more interesting skills that provide immunity + other effects or a big decrease in access to snares and their strength.

raasdal

Fixing Snares into Major / Minor and letting them offset with Expedition would go a LOOONG way to fix all issues.

Major Snare would be 30%. Minor snare would be 10%. This is balanced towards Expedition. So maximum snare applied would be 40%. Compared to the current situation, where you are regularly snared for 60%, this single change would help alot.

I think you should be able to snare both from meleee and from ranged distance. But just like they decided to remove Stun from hard hitting abilities, they should do the same for Snares.

And then yes, make snare removal / soft cc immunity more available. I am sick of being forced into running Momentum on every single build that is not a DK (Wings), if i want to be able to move.

TheBonesXXX

@Jules

Some Q, do you mean just snares or does that include roots?

I think the major and minor system is great. I agree, ANY CC should be apart of an activated condition.

DW has a snare, but it does not have a have closer. The DW ulti almost requires snares, rooted, stunned targets to land.

I'm just a bit concerned about skills getting a rework and ending up poopy. Like Bloodthirst when it buffed attack speed. (Still salty about attack normalization)

Gilvoth

.

MalagenR

You don't need shuffle or FM on every build, it all depends on your group set up. Stop trying to rebalance snares for solo play or 1vX. That is not the purpose of the game.

Ragnarock41

Snares should be working in a way that works as a counter to hyper mobility builds. Though I agree long range snares shouldn't really be a common thing. I personally think the only real change we need is to make sure there is a limit to how much and how often you can be snared. Because some snares are so potent that they work like roots, killing your ability to move around completely.

What I know for sure is that putting snare immunity to every setup imaginable is not the right way to handle this issue.

Minno

casparian wrote: »

Just because it's easier to be negative than positive, two points I disagree with:

Ranged snares: I'm a committed melee player -- I generally tend to find ranged gameplay is not to my taste. That said, I do think kiting is and should be a real playstyle in this game. It's hard for me to imagine anything like classic mageblade play without Cripple, for instance.

Major/minor system: This is a popular suggestion and would probably make some things better, but I'm not sure it would make things a lot better. Snares are already almost divided out on a major/minor system (with most snares being either 60% or 40%), and there is already a snare overwrite system. A major/minor system would undoubtedly clarify and simplify things, but I'm not sure how noticeable the real-world difference would be.

Now my positive suggestion:

I think that the fact that snares (and CC in general) demand active counterplay is a good thing. While I wholeheartedly agree that there are currently too damn many snares (and too many skills that already do plenty also have a snare on them for no good reason), I also think that it's healthy for PVP that, if I'm not on my game, other opponents will be able to slow me down. If I'm snared, I have to do something about it -- I can't just shrug it off. That's a good thing.

The problem is that there are far too few ways of doing something about it. Every class and spec needs access to some variety of snare removal and a brief immunity window, for the same reason that we need a CC immunity window. I don't know if the best thing to do is to implement an internal cooldown on being snared (the way they implemented an internal cooldown on being rooted), or to add Forward Momentum-like functionality to a few class skills. But I do think that either one of those changes, when coupled with a pass at removing the snare from some skills, would make an enormous difference.

TL;DR Remove the snare from some skills, and add a brief snare immunity to some skills. Done.

Agreed. The right response given how snares actually work.

Also, id gladly give up my ritual snare only because templar needs an actual root/AOE cc/proactive defense anyway lol.

MalagenR

Snare Immunity for a 60%> Snare should be a 2 second window -

Snare's at 40%< should grant no snare immunity

Fixed it.

Jules

MalagenR wrote: »

You don't need shuffle or FM on every build, it all depends on your group set up. Stop trying to rebalance snares for solo play or 1vX. That is not the purpose of the game.

Actually, the only purpose of the game is play how you want to play. It’s myopic to think that you are the moral authority on what everyone else enjoys and that your play style is somehow more valid because you say so.

In regards to snares, their current state affects all of us negatively, regardless of what size group you’re in. And even if you think you’re immune to it now, don’t worry, you’ve been artificially immune to it with your rapids spammer doing all the heavy lifting. Large group players will be feeling it soon too post rapids nerf.

All around, its just funny to listen to someone try to defend the current state of snares based on some secret hidden agenda against solo play. Not the issue on hand at all.

MalagenR

Jules wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

You don't need shuffle or FM on every build, it all depends on your group set up. Stop trying to rebalance snares for solo play or 1vX. That is not the purpose of the game.

Actually, the only purpose of the game is play how you want to play. It’s myopic to think that you are the moral authority on what everyone else enjoys and that your play style is somehow more valid because you say so.

In regards to snares, their current state affects all of us negatively, regardless of what size group you’re in. And even if you think you’re immune to it now, don’t worry, you’ve been artificially immune to it with your rapids spammer doing all the heavy lifting. Large group players will be feeling it soon too post rapids nerf.

All around, its just funny to listen to someone try to defend the current state of snares based on some secret hidden agenda against solo play. Not the issue on hand at all.

No, that's not at all how it works. MMO games are designed large communities of players participating in group oriented events, this is design by purpose, not by accident.

This is the reason you have:

Que for Group Dungeons
Que for Group BG's
Que for Cyro Groups
etc. etc.

Yes, the player has the choice to play by themselves as a solo player, and that is perfectly reasonable too, solo players are still valuable members of the community, but to try and deny that this game is designed specifically to be played in a group, working with other players, seems incorrect to me.

To that end, I reiterate my point, in group based play snares perform perfectly well. They provide just enough slow to allow someone who is potentially being focus fired to escape, and gives the enemy just enough speed to focus fire down said player if they are playing correctly.

The only thing that isn't balanced from a snare perspective is Permafrost. It has an AOE root, snare, and stun and it provides group Major Protection without having to press a synergy button.

I don't ever play in a large group and generally solo in Cyro, that last point you made is totally invalid to me, snares have less of an impact on me because I know how to dodge roll animation cancel streak.

Jules

MalagenR wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

You don't need shuffle or FM on every build, it all depends on your group set up. Stop trying to rebalance snares for solo play or 1vX. That is not the purpose of the game.

Actually, the only purpose of the game is play how you want to play. It’s myopic to think that you are the moral authority on what everyone else enjoys and that your play style is somehow more valid because you say so.

In regards to snares, their current state affects all of us negatively, regardless of what size group you’re in. And even if you think you’re immune to it now, don’t worry, you’ve been artificially immune to it with your rapids spammer doing all the heavy lifting. Large group players will be feeling it soon too post rapids nerf.

All around, its just funny to listen to someone try to defend the current state of snares based on some secret hidden agenda against solo play. Not the issue on hand at all.

No, that's not at all how it works. MMO games are designed large communities of players participating in group oriented events, this is design by purpose, not by accident.

This is the reason you have:

Que for Group Dungeons
Que for Group BG's
Que for Cyro Groups
etc. etc.

Yes, the player has the choice to play by themselves as a solo player, and that is perfectly reasonable too, solo players are still valuable members of the community, but to try and deny that this game is designed specifically to be played in a group, working with other players, seems incorrect to me.

To that end, I reiterate my point, in group based play snares perform perfectly well. They provide just enough slow to allow someone who is potentially being focus fired to escape, and gives the enemy just enough speed to focus fire down said player if they are playing correctly.

The only thing that isn't balanced from a snare perspective is Permafrost. It has an AOE root, snare, and stun and it provides group Major Protection without having to press a synergy button.

I don't ever play in a large group and generally solo in Cyro, that last point you made is totally invalid to me, snares have less of an impact on me because I know how to dodge roll animation cancel streak.

What? You can’t even animation cancel streak. Animation cancelling is for skills that are stationary. It is theoretically to optimize dead space between skills. But it does not work on teleports because there is no dead space there, it’s a global cool down in which your character is actively being propelled forward. If you try to block cancel it you’ll just stop. I guess you could swap cancel it but like, who cares? 0 benefit. Also say goodbye to a regen tick of stam.

But aside from all that, I’m just genuinely confused. You are stating you are a solo player, but then telling me that solo is not the purpose of the game. Also, you say you never play large group, but are seemingly qualified to assess how functional and non broken snares are through that lens... ?

MalagenR

Jules wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

You don't need shuffle or FM on every build, it all depends on your group set up. Stop trying to rebalance snares for solo play or 1vX. That is not the purpose of the game.

Actually, the only purpose of the game is play how you want to play. It’s myopic to think that you are the moral authority on what everyone else enjoys and that your play style is somehow more valid because you say so.

In regards to snares, their current state affects all of us negatively, regardless of what size group you’re in. And even if you think you’re immune to it now, don’t worry, you’ve been artificially immune to it with your rapids spammer doing all the heavy lifting. Large group players will be feeling it soon too post rapids nerf.

All around, its just funny to listen to someone try to defend the current state of snares based on some secret hidden agenda against solo play. Not the issue on hand at all.

No, that's not at all how it works. MMO games are designed large communities of players participating in group oriented events, this is design by purpose, not by accident.

This is the reason you have:

Que for Group Dungeons
Que for Group BG's
Que for Cyro Groups
etc. etc.

Yes, the player has the choice to play by themselves as a solo player, and that is perfectly reasonable too, solo players are still valuable members of the community, but to try and deny that this game is designed specifically to be played in a group, working with other players, seems incorrect to me.

To that end, I reiterate my point, in group based play snares perform perfectly well. They provide just enough slow to allow someone who is potentially being focus fired to escape, and gives the enemy just enough speed to focus fire down said player if they are playing correctly.

The only thing that isn't balanced from a snare perspective is Permafrost. It has an AOE root, snare, and stun and it provides group Major Protection without having to press a synergy button.

I don't ever play in a large group and generally solo in Cyro, that last point you made is totally invalid to me, snares have less of an impact on me because I know how to dodge roll animation cancel streak.

What? You can’t even animation cancel streak. Animation cancelling is for skills that are stationary. It is theoretically to optimize dead space between skills. But it does not work on teleports because there is no dead space there, it’s a global cool down in which your character is actively being propelled forward. If you try to block cancel it you’ll just stop. I guess you could swap cancel it but like, who cares? 0 benefit. Also say goodbye to a regen tick of stam.

But aside from all that, I’m just genuinely confused. You are stating you are a solo player, but then telling me that solo is not the purpose of the game. Also, you say you never play large group, but are seemingly qualified to assess how functional and non broken snares are through that lens... ?

I pointed out that MMO's are designed around group play and that players definitely have the right to choose how to play. I'm not sure how you are confused about this. But there isn't much I can do to clarify, do you disagree that MMO's are designed around group play? Do you disagree that solo players should be allowed to play solo?

You can absolutely animation cancel the dodge roll and streak, giving you all the benefits of the dodge roll while only giving you the animation of streak.

I dodge roll - the dodge animation is cancelled - I streak

Ranger209

Jules wrote: »

I recently read and was inspired by @Ranger209 's snare post. In this, he questions whether reducing snares by battlespirit would be an effective way of fixing the snare issue, or whether this would be too overarching. I started commenting in his thread, but then realized I was typing an actual novel to reply to a one sentence OP and figured maybe this should be it's own instead.

TL/DR: I'd say I do not think reducing snares by battlespirit is the best way of managing them.

Instead,

1) All passive snares should be removed. Snares are more acceptable when the skill is designed around them. For instance, stampede, caltrops, and ash cloud/morphs are all fine. At the very least with these, someone is giving up bar space to accomplish the goal of snaring you. Seems a fair trade off. Skills like purify that have a massive AOE snare (templar main btw) are obnoxious and make no sense with the overall theme of the skill. It gives the snare just to give it.
2) All ranged snares should be removed. If you are going to be reducing someone's movement speed, you should have to be within a reasonable distance of them to have this kind of effect. It is well outside balanced risk/reward when you can snare someone from far distances.
3) Snares should absolutely be restricted to a major/minor system the way everything else is, to prevent them stacking and becoming unbearable. Give them two flat % amounts for major and minor, and allocate each skill that currently snares one or the other.
4) ZOS & the community should start looking at snares as CC's. CC being "crowd control". I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you are controlling a crowd/target when you are drastically reducing their movement speed. Often snares are not looked at as CC's. People generally only use the term for hard cc's such as fossilize or fear, skills that completely render the opponent useless and force them into an action. However, snares are by definition an attenuated version of this as they still cause limitations to the opponent and still force the opponent into an action, ie: purify, purge, shuffle, ect.
5) Ideally, just piggybacking off of the last point, there should be a snare immunity of some sort. Not sure what timing is fair, but the game should intrinsically protect players from 100% snare uptime through actual design instead of strictly through a few key skills. This likely would be very labor intensive from a game design point of view but would be worth imo.


Thoughts?

Want to speak to you about points 3, 4, and 5.

3) As I see it the main difference between using battle spirit to halve snare values and a major/minor system is that the major/minor system has an effect on PVE whereas using battle spirit does not. I believe the most dramatic snare we see is 70% from razor caltrops and maybe some ultimates? If there are some that slow more than 70% please fill in the blanks. But that would get cut to 35%. What other values of snare do we find in game 60%, 30%, are there others? These would be cut to 30% and 15%, basically the major minor system that people are asking for which the stronger overwrites the weaker. This addresses issues in PVP without changing anything in PVE. I think that is really the only advantage, but a huge one in some peoples minds, to using battle spirit vs changing to a flat out major/minor. Think of this as a faux major/minor system only applicable to PVP. If I am missing anything or there are any holes in what I am saying please point them out, I am sure they can be addressed.

Before addressing points 4 and 5 let me give my vision of what CC, both hard and soft, should and should not be. Some may agree or disagree with this vision, but it gives a backdrop for why I propose the modifications to CC that I do. To me CC should be something that players use on each other to interrupt timing of dps burst chains, to hinder the positioning of an opponent or aid in re-positioning of themselves, to interrupt healing on their opponent. It should put a persons opponent into a defensive mindset briefly, force an adjustment, and then allow them to resume an offensive mindset or a re-positioning attempt. It should invite and require counter-play, both pro-active and reactive, that allows your opponent to regain control of themselves after a brief adjustment period. As such it needs to be made available to all classes in both mag and stam forms. It needs to have immunity periods that allow for windows of opportunity to heal, reposition, or resume an attack before becoming susceptible to more CC.

It should not be allowed to completely lock down a character for more than a global cool down, barring being out of resources, no matter how many opponents are spamming roots, snares, and stuns on them. I have said this in half a dozen different threads over the last year or so, but immunity needs to come with the CC debuff not from breaking free. This is the main culprit in buggy CC breaking free in my mind. Break free should do just that and that alone, break you free. If you get immunity from the first CC that hits you, you can not be chain CC'd. If people are focusing you currently you can be stunned multiple times before you can break free because you are not yet immune. So it needs to be where you get hit with a hard CC you are now immune. Next you attempt to break free and regain control of your avatar. There is nothing fun about being perma CC'd and unable to do anything about it.

So in short CC, hard and soft, should force a player to counter it, and try to regain control of the situation, not lock them down forcing chain break frees and roll dodges to which they will just end up dead anyways. They should cause moments of panic, maybe a rise in blood pressure, but certainly not aneurysms. CC's should be part of the dance, not last call for alcohol.

That being said there needs to be immunity to all CC both hard and soft. Hard CC has this, when it works, soft CC has none. I believe again that the root or snare debuff you get should provide the immunity and that roll dodge should break you free from soft CC. It is already used as a counter to roots, it is readily available to all classes of all magicka or stamina persuasions, and it could be included to also counter snares. Having it as a separate counter to soft CC's from break free I believe creates a little more thought, a little more doubt, and a little more skill to use in the correct situation than to just tack on to the same immunity used for hard CC's. You would now have to be aware of which type of CC has you under its control and use the appropriate method to get out of its control.

If there were a separate method of remedying soft CC and hard CC then I think each immunity should be at 8 seconds. What this does is allow again skillful play as to when to apply CC and what type to apply. For example say you got CC'd, you would burn up a gc roll dodging or breaking free, potentially burn another healing and then if someone was using an even cadence and CC weaving within their burst window you would have 2 more gcs to counter attack before being CC'd with the other type of CC. They could also try and CC you with each type back to back so that after you counter one CC you immediately have to counter the other. This would give them a little extra time to go for the kill, but if they fail it gives you extra time to mount a counter offensive. I see 2 independent CC immunities bringing about a little more skill than one. if they chose to just go with one then I think the immunity should be 4 seconds. This is enough time to break free and react, but it needs to be shorter in duration as it would now include snares and roots which currently have no immunity. I think 4 seconds is the sweet spot between overbearing CC and underwhelming CC, again just opinion there. But it allows for windows in time to counter before being susceptible to further CC, which I believe is crucial to fun game play.

Well I know you didn't want to write a book in my thread and now I have turned around and done it in yours, my apologies. just want the conversation to continue and don't really care where. Hope you made it this far.

Jules

casparian wrote: »

Ranged snares: I'm a committed melee player -- I generally tend to find ranged gameplay is not to my taste. That said, I do think kiting is and should be a real playstyle in this game. It's hard for me to imagine anything like classic mageblade play without Cripple, for instance.

Nah cripple could keep the immobilize, I'm talking strictly snares as in slows, not roots/immobs.

casparian wrote: »

The problem is that there are far too few ways of doing something about it. Every class and spec needs access to some variety of snare removal and a brief immunity window, for the same reason that we need a CC immunity window. I don't know if the best thing to do is to implement an internal cooldown on being snared (the way they implemented an internal cooldown on being rooted), or to add Forward Momentum-like functionality to a few class skills. But I do think that either one of those changes, when coupled with a pass at removing the snare from some skills, would make an enormous difference.

I agree with this and think it's really well said. Either way would work but we need some more access to it. Implementing a few more skills with it would probably be a lot easier than a whole new internal cooldown system though.

Solariken

Really great points Jules. However I don't want to see any global bandaid fixes this time. We need targeted adjustments exactly like is happening with Time Stop.

For examples,

Instead of a football field of snares on Sacred Ground, it could give Minor Expedition to the Templar and reduce resistances of enemies within.

Dk Warmth could be reduced to a proc chance, maybe 10-15% with some ancillary effect added when it procs.

Wall of Frost could perhaps only apply the snare when the root procs instead of a constant snare. Ice should be slippery anyway, not snarey.

Anyway just some ideas. I hope they approach it intelligently instead of lazily.

Qbiken

Solariken wrote: »

Really great points Jules. However I don't want to see any global bandaid fixes this time. We need targeted adjustments exactly like is happening with Time Stop.

For examples,

Instead of a football field of snares on Sacred Ground, it could give Minor Expedition to the Templar and reduce resistances of enemies within.

Dk Warmth could be reduced to a proc chance, maybe 10-15% with some ancillary effect added when it procs.

Wall of Frost could perhaps only apply the snare when the root procs instead of a constant snare. Ice should be slippery anyway, not snarey.

Anyway just some ideas. I hope they approach it intelligently instead of lazily.

Like these suggestions, especially the templar one.

Hotdog_23

Now I don’t PVP a lot so take my suggestion as grain of salt in the sea.

Each class should have access to one root, one snare, one crowd control ability and not multiple of each. Remove all of them from other skills and weapon lines. A way to control another player should be a conscience active choice and not an afterthought.

I know this would be a big change, but I believe with all the changes that have been made to ESO we would learn to overcome and adapt to this change.

As far as the removal of roots and snares there should be an ability within each class that cleanse or removes them, again as an active choice and not an afterthought. Hard cc’s should be undone by break free of our highest resource and not just stamina.

My uneducated 2 cents.

After reading what I wrote I want to clarify that my suggestion does not include abilities that control an area such as wall or frost, time stop and caltrops etc.… but rather abilities that control one individual.

MalagenR

Solariken wrote: »

Really great points Jules. However I don't want to see any global bandaid fixes this time. We need targeted adjustments exactly like is happening with Time Stop.

For examples,

Instead of a football field of snares on Sacred Ground, it could give Minor Expedition to the Templar and reduce resistances of enemies within.

Dk Warmth could be reduced to a proc chance, maybe 10-15% with some ancillary effect added when it procs.

Wall of Frost could perhaps only apply the snare when the root procs instead of a constant snare. Ice should be slippery anyway, not snarey.

Anyway just some ideas. I hope they approach it intelligently instead of lazily.

To not slip on the ice you should walk cautiously.

Iskiab

Absolutely horrible ideas. Removing passive snares wouldn’t be too bad though. Ranged snares are requirement, the game has been balanced around them.

MalagenR

Can we see some clips of your solo play so we can all learn how to handle snares better?[/quote]

You'll be happy to know I've been creating clips of me using Frost Wall of Elements to absolutely destroy people specifically for my favorite stalker.

montiferus

MalagenR wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I pointed out that MMO's are designed around group play and that players definitely have the right to choose how to play. I'm not sure how you are confused about this. But there isn't much I can do to clarify, do you disagree that MMO's are designed around group play? Do you disagree that solo players should be allowed to play solo?

You can absolutely animation cancel the dodge roll and streak, giving you all the benefits of the dodge roll while only giving you the animation of streak.

I dodge roll - the dodge animation is cancelled - I streak

Can we see some clips of your solo play so we can all learn how to handle snares better?

You're still stalking m

montiferus wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I pointed out that MMO's are designed around group play and that players definitely have the right to choose how to play. I'm not sure how you are confused about this. But there isn't much I can do to clarify, do you disagree that MMO's are designed around group play? Do you disagree that solo players should be allowed to play solo?

You can absolutely animation cancel the dodge roll and streak, giving you all the benefits of the dodge roll while only giving you the animation of streak.

I dodge roll - the dodge animation is cancelled - I streak

Can we see some clips of your solo play so we can all learn how to handle snares better?

I've been compiling videos of me PVP'ing with W

montiferus wrote: »

MalagenR wrote: »

I pointed out that MMO's are designed around group play and that players definitely have the right to choose how to play. I'm not sure how you are confused about this. But there isn't much I can do to clarify, do you disagree that MMO's are designed around group play? Do you disagree that solo players should be allowed to play solo?

You can absolutely animation cancel the dodge roll and streak, giving you all the benefits of the dodge roll while only giving you the animation of streak.

I dodge roll - the dodge animation is cancelled - I streak

Can we see some clips of your solo play so we can all learn how to handle snares better?

You'll be happy to know I've been creating clips of me using Frost Wall of Elements to absolutely destroy people specifically for my favorite stalker.

cant wait. it will have only taken you a month to do this. also please show a clip of your dodge roll streak.

MalagenR

[/quote]

cant wait. it will have only taken you a month to do this. also please show a clip of your dodge roll streak.[/quote]

Man I'm not sure what your deal is, with the condescension and all, I can't tell if it's just that you're part of the Twitter fingers generation or what. But I've been playing MMO's for a long time, I've never been someone that needs to record videos.

But, apparently on forums not having videos means that your opinion doesn't matter. Thus, you've forced me to compile footage.

I've got some PS4 streamers, some good BG's, some losses. BG's are the best for clips as I'm sure you understand this as you basically are never without a group in Cyro, where as I am generally solo, but I do have some clips of good open world 1vX and 1v1's.

It just got annoying trying to get that footage because good 1v1's worth recording video of are 10 minutes long. Must be why you only post videos of you smashing trash cans.

As for the streak cancelling, you can view one of MalcomX video's if you want to see it immediately. He does it constantly.

Jules

Iskiab wrote: »

Absolutely horrible ideas. Removing passive snares wouldn’t be too bad though. Ranged snares are requirement, the game has been balanced around them.

Found the back-of-the-pack snarer

Jules

Solariken wrote: »

Really great points Jules. However I don't want to see any global bandaid fixes this time. We need targeted adjustments exactly like is happening with Time Stop.

For examples,

Instead of a football field of snares on Sacred Ground, it could give Minor Expedition to the Templar and reduce resistances of enemies within.

Dk Warmth could be reduced to a proc chance, maybe 10-15% with some ancillary effect added when it procs.

Wall of Frost could perhaps only apply the snare when the root procs instead of a constant snare. Ice should be slippery anyway, not snarey.

Anyway just some ideas. I hope they approach it intelligently instead of lazily.

Agree w/ some of these and not so much with others, @Solariken

I think the minor expedition to templar, while I would totally love that and definitely benefit from it, wouldn't make sense for the class. Templar is meant to be a melee class and by design shouldn't be speedy/kitey. Minor expedition on this skill- which is nearly always down, would be too much. When procced, it would too give templar the same base speed as sorcs (hurricane) and that just seems wrong as that's their class identity, not ours.

I sortof like the concept of reduction of resistances but it would have to be by a pretty small amount and maybe even have a cap of 6 players and also not stack if multiple purifies are down. The aoe is massive so your opponent basically has no way to get out of it, reducing their resistances by too much would be insanely powerful and have nearly 0 counterplay to many classes. And to be fair, purify is already an insanely powerful skill just by its base design. It most likely could have the snare removed and not be compensated with anything at all and still be perfectly useful.

I like the concept of warmth being a proc chance instead of a constant. I'm not sure it'd just put it at a random 10-15% RNG roll, maybe make it proc at higher rate but smaller window (like 40% proc chance if target below 50% health ect). I don't really like the concept of passive snares at all but I can respect that a snare makes sense in DK toolkit somewhere as its a melee/brawler type class. This snare helps them secure the kill against a more mobile, dodgerolly class and that's good. Though they already have roots and snares available through skills, mdk barspace is pretty tight as is with having to run multiple dots for pressure. Wouldn't want to oppress them too much.

The third concept about wall of frost I like all around without change, and agree, ice is meant to be slippery, not snarey. Very intelligent breakdown, appreciate your input.

Solariken

Jules wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Really great points Jules. However I don't want to see any global bandaid fixes this time. We need targeted adjustments exactly like is happening with Time Stop.

For examples,

Instead of a football field of snares on Sacred Ground, it could give Minor Expedition to the Templar and reduce resistances of enemies within.

Dk Warmth could be reduced to a proc chance, maybe 10-15% with some ancillary effect added when it procs.

Wall of Frost could perhaps only apply the snare when the root procs instead of a constant snare. Ice should be slippery anyway, not snarey.

Anyway just some ideas. I hope they approach it intelligently instead of lazily.

Agree w/ some of these and not so much with others, @Solariken

I think the minor expedition to templar, while I would totally love that and definitely benefit from it, wouldn't make sense for the class. Templar is meant to be a melee class and by design shouldn't be speedy/kitey. Minor expedition on this skill- which is nearly always down, would be too much. When procced, it would too give templar the same base speed as sorcs (boundless/hurricane) and that just seems wrong as that's their class identity, not ours.

Stamsorc doesn't need to have any monopoly on speed my lady; idk if you remember but my main BG build is a speed-capped magplar. 10% boost to Templar's speed would be weaker than an aoe 30% snare on enemies by a long shot in terms of kite-ability. It would also be much less frustrating to play against.

Also, Templar has a whole skill line geared toward a ranged caster playstyle which barely sees any practical use outside of ganking because there are limited options for kiting and controlling your opponent. If the snares are removed there should be some compensation for this playstyle.

Another super cool idea I've lobbied for is to put an Eternal Hunt effect on Templar rune; the first enemy to step in it gets a damage spike and a root. I know I'm dreaming but that would be the bee's knees.

I sortof like the concept of reduction of resistances but it would have to be by a pretty small amount and maybe even have a cap of 6 players and also not stack if multiple purifies are down. The aoe is massive so your opponent basically has no way to get out of it, reducing their resistances by too much would be insanely powerful and have nearly 0 counterplay to many classes. And to be fair, purify is already an insanely powerful skill just by its base design. It most likely could have the snare removed and not be compensated with anything at all and still be perfectly useful.

It's important to remember that Sacred Ground is separate from Ritual. If it were to be changed it had better be replaced by something awesome and fun. We already have enough garbage passives that barely bring any value to the kit.

Jules

Solariken wrote: »

Another super cool idea I've lobbied for is to put an Eternal Hunt effect on Templar rune; the first enemy to step in it gets a damage spike and a root. I know I'm dreaming but that would be the bee's knees.

yeah I dig this, this would be really cool. Doubtful to happen, but it's small enough it wouldn't be obnoxious (I don't think).

Solariken wrote: »

It's important to remember that Sacred Ground is separate from Ritual. If it were to be changed it had better be replaced by something awesome and fun. We already have enough garbage passives that barely bring any value to the kit.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I always just think of them as one in the same cause purify is the most practical application of it. I would rather see stamplars get some love in those passives tbh.

Iskiab

Jules wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Absolutely horrible ideas. Removing passive snares wouldn’t be too bad though. Ranged snares are requirement, the game has been balanced around them.

Found the back-of-the-pack snarer

Nope, I pvp heal. I’m also a NB healer who uses cloak so if snares were gone it would help my survivability a ton. I just know ranged needs them and can spot someone wanting to be OP, and want to squash all the whining threads.

Jules

Iskiab wrote: »

Nope, I pvp heal. I’m also a NB healer who uses cloak so if snares were gone it would help my survivability a ton. I just know ranged needs them and can spot someone wanting to be OP and want to squash all the whining threads.

Jules wrote: »

I think the minor expedition to templar, while I would totally love that and definitely benefit from it, wouldn't make sense for the class. Templar is meant to be a melee class and by design shouldn't be speedy/kitey. Minor expedition on this skill- which is nearly always down, would be too much. When procced, it would too give templar the same base speed as sorcs (hurricane) and that just seems wrong as that's their class identity, not ours.

I sortof like the concept of reduction of resistances but it would have to be by a pretty small amount and maybe even have a cap of 6 players and also not stack if multiple purifies are down. The aoe is massive so your opponent basically has no way to get out of it, reducing their resistances by too much would be insanely powerful and have nearly 0 counterplay to many classes. And to be fair, purify is already an insanely powerful skill just by its base design. It most likely could have the snare removed and not be compensated with anything at all and still be perfectly useful.

Yeah, ya got me. Totally just whining and wanting to be OP as clearly evidenced above where I refute changes that I believe would overbuff my class.

If you're going to keep saying ranged needs snares, atleast be a lad and explain why you think so, otherwise it's just nonsense.

Iskiab

Okay. All the ranged classes have less self healing, survivability and damage than melee classes. What lets them survive is staying at range, and they’ll be quickly overcome in melee range.

Melee already have overpowered gap closers like shield charge that close distances and stun at the same time.

If ranged weren’t able to use mobility for survivability there would be zero reasons to play one. Ranged needs to be able to kite and keep melee snared so they have a chance to escape, because fighting in melee range against a melee class is suicide.

That’s balance, if you catch a ranged they’re dead but it should not be easy to catch them.