What aren't sorc welcomed in endgame competitive?

Tasear

So lets talk about this now?

Sorc class can give other dps 25 major berserk
Sorc class should give higher uptime or comparable uptime to minor Vunerbility than sets like IA
Sorc has minor prochey and conduit synergy.
Sorc has aoe dps skills like negate and atro

What is wrong with sorc class?

SaintSubwayy

Tasear wrote: »

So lets talk about this now?

Sorc class can give other dps 25 major berserk
Sorc class should give higher uptime or comparable uptime to minor Vunerbility than sets like IA
Sorc has minor prochey and conduit synergy.
Sorc has aoe dps skills like negate and atro

What is wrong with sorc class?

Im Gona break it down for you:

Sorc class can give other dps 25 major berserk: Yes, for 8 Seconds...destroult will in fights where more than 1 Enemy is present Outdps Attro, and the buff provided to 1 player.

Sorc class should give higher uptime or comparable uptime to minor Vunerbility than sets like IA: it cannot compete with sets like IA because IA can have a 100% Uptime on minor Vulnrability, while Statuseffect Porccs are Chancebased, ergo they wont reach a 100% uptime.

Sorc has minor prochey and conduit synergy. : True, thats why every group runns atleast 1 Sorc, even Hodor runs a Sorc (offheal) in their vSO Run, because of the Synergy for Alkosh Uptime, and Minor Prophety (not really needed with 8 stamblades but nice addition) and ofc sorcs easy to get warhonuptime higher, due to "cheap" cost

Sorc has aoe dps skills like negate and atro: AOE DMG is not needed in Trials, because trashgroups die fast anyways, IF a add or Miniboss is dangerous it will get focussed in ST anyways (kill it asap), for speedruns you loose more time on Bossfights than on all trashfights combined.
Only fight in which Negate is usefull is the vHRC HM, to negate Gargoyle stomp, and in PVP

And Biggset PRoblem sorc faces right now....SUSTAIN (hopefully fixed with Wrathstone)

Tasear

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So lets talk about this now?

Sorc class can give other dps 25 major berserk
Sorc class should give higher uptime or comparable uptime to minor Vunerbility than sets like IA
Sorc has minor prochey and conduit synergy.
Sorc has aoe dps skills like negate and atro

What is wrong with sorc class?

Im Gona break it down for you:

Sorc class can give other dps 25 major berserk: Yes, for 8 Seconds...destroult will in fights where more than 1 Enemy is present Outdps Attro, and the buff provided to 1 player.

Sorc class should give higher uptime or comparable uptime to minor Vunerbility than sets like IA: it cannot compete with sets like IA because IA can have a 100% Uptime on minor Vulnrability, while Statuseffect Porccs are Chancebased, ergo they wont reach a 100% uptime.

Sorc has minor prochey and conduit synergy. : True, thats why every group runns atleast 1 Sorc, even Hodor runs a Sorc (offheal) in their vSO Run, because of the Synergy for Alkosh Uptime, and Minor Prophety (not really needed with 8 stamblades but nice addition) and ofc sorcs easy to get warhonuptime higher, due to "cheap" cost

Sorc has aoe dps skills like negate and atro: AOE DMG is not needed in Trials, because trashgroups die fast anyways, IF a add or Miniboss is dangerous it will get focussed in ST anyways (kill it asap), for speedruns you loose more time on Bossfights than on all trashfights combined.
Only fight in which Negate is usefull is the vHRC HM, to negate Gargoyle stomp, and in PVP

And Biggset PRoblem sorc faces right now....SUSTAIN (hopefully fixed with Wrathstone)

I asked a redundant question as I know answer to these questions, but if we talk about why things don't work then maybe we can get results for future. Lets show zos why what they think should be useful isn't doing enough. Or maybe we debate some points that we some will disagree on.

SaintSubwayy

@Tasear

Well Sorc seems to do pretty good IMO, with Wrathstone from what Ive seen and heard so far.

The main Problem (IMO) for PVE is that Crit is just super strong, and classes like NB and Templar can profit way more from crits, due to their 10% Critdmg passive.
Sorcs, DK's and Partially wardens are lacking on basedmg or a similar modifier to make up for the Critdmg modifier on NB and Templars.

But there was already thread in the Forums about the Attro (not sure if it was yours aswell), were many good ideas have been discussed on how to make the attro better in PVE, but since classbalance is not adjusted for 3 MOnths, then a big change, and then not touched for the next 3 months, makes it very hard to get classes balanced at all.

Classbalance IMO should be tweaked at minimum once per month, with changes to bigger than 5% of skills, if the change seems to be to strong after the first month, tune the skill down again by a few %...rinse and repeat, and we get to a healthy balance in prob 1-2 years and dont jump from sDK HA meta to a instand magblade meta, then to this meta and so forth

Princess_Ciri

They are welcomed as healers

Tasear

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

@Tasear

Well Sorc seems to do pretty good IMO, with Wrathstone from what Ive seen and heard so far.

The main Problem (IMO) for PVE is that Crit is just super strong, and classes like NB and Templar can profit way more from crits, due to their 10% Critdmg passive.
Sorcs, DK's and Partially wardens are lacking on basedmg or a similar modifier to make up for the Critdmg modifier on NB and Templars.

But there was already thread in the Forums about the Attro (not sure if it was yours aswell), were many good ideas have been discussed on how to make the attro better in PVE, but since classbalance is not adjusted for 3 MOnths, then a big change, and then not touched for the next 3 months, makes it very hard to get classes balanced at all.

Classbalance IMO should be tweaked at minimum once per month, with changes to bigger than 5% of skills, if the change seems to be to strong after the first month, tune the skill down again by a few %...rinse and repeat, and we get to a healthy balance in prob 1-2 years and dont jump from sDK HA meta to a instand magblade meta, then to this meta and so forth

I see that a different perspective on the issue. Thanks for sharing insight with everyone.

Tremors

Nightblades have too much in their kit at the moment and scale too good in raid. Surely ZoS knows this by now, it's only been a blade meta for 18 months+

Tasear

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

They are welcomed as healers

I know right... what am I thinking about complaining... when my dreams finally came true....

Kikke

Tasear wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

They are welcomed as healers

I know right... what am I thinking about complaining... when my dreams finally came true....

Lol xD

Anyway. All the points are made. Nothing for me to say apart from getting a better way to control pets...

zvavi

1 sorc is always welcome for the 6% spell crit group buff

Galarthor

Tremors wrote: »

Nightblades have too much in their kit at the moment and scale too good in raid. Surely ZoS knows this by now, it's only been a blade meta for 18 months+

I am pretty sure they do. And by the fact that it has already lasted as long as it has tells me that they want it that way.

royo

Incap damage scaling and cost, minor berserk, and ulti gen put nightblades well above the rest of the classes in competitive play.

Derra

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

@Tasear

The main Problem (IMO) for PVE is that Crit is just super strong, and classes like NB and Templar can profit way more from crits, due to their 10% Critdmg passive.

So you´re saying remove 10% critdmg passives?

cpuScientist

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

Tasear

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

SaintSubwayy

Derra wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

@Tasear

The main Problem (IMO) for PVE is that Crit is just super strong, and classes like NB and Templar can profit way more from crits, due to their 10% Critdmg passive.

So you´re saying remove 10% critdmg passives?

not at all, Im saying buff the crap out of other classe spassivesx, to be atleast on the same lvl as the 10% critdmg is...or give those classes the same 10% critdmg aswell

no big problem for PVP, since crit isnt as relevant there, but a nice move to close the gap in PVE....ot alteast lower the gap in PVE.

Seraphayel

Nothing is wrong with Sorc, people are the problem here as usual. Sorcs are as welcomed as every other class besides some pseudo elitist groups that only want perfect classes perfect builds and perfect gear to go easy mode.

cpuScientist

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nothing is wrong with Sorc, people are the problem here as usual. Sorcs are as welcomed as every other class besides some pseudo elitist groups that only want perfect classes perfect builds and perfect gear to go easy mode.

No they are simply the pushers of the envelope they want to get the highest score. And from this we get to see the balance of the classes at the highest level and thusly they help tremendously with balance and health of the game overall.

What's fun for these groups might not be fun for others but competitiveness is on a spectrum and ESO is great because there are groups that cover that spectrum if you are willing to look socialize and meet new people.

Back to the thread at hand though

Conduit0

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nothing is wrong with Sorc, people are the problem here as usual. Sorcs are as welcomed as every other class besides some pseudo elitist groups that only want perfect classes perfect builds and perfect gear to go easy mode.

If those elitists don't want Sorcs it means Sorcs are under performing, which means there is something wrong.

cpuScientist

Tasear wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

I get that you are asking the questions not as someone who doesn't know but just providing the general arguments that come up.

Dark conversions cast time makes it too wonky for PvE further the resources granted is not competitive with skills such as Templar rune or warden Betty and the such. It is only somewhat competitive with the mages guild spell sym but not even as the free cast afterwards and the amount given and the instant cast of it makes spell sym better than dark deal.

Cost reduction is not high enough reduction after blocking is one weak and two does not reliably affect DPS only tanks and then not even needed or wanted. It is a very wasted passive that even the target audience tanks don't need or even notive and would prefer something more useful.

Sorc sustain makes it untenable. Dark deal is part of the class identity in PvP but has no place in PvE. And it's existence keeps sorcs back in many regards. How it could be tweaked to not anger PvP sorcs LIKE MYSELF I have ideas but do not know.

bardx86

cpuScientist wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

I get that you are asking the questions not as someone who doesn't know but just providing the general arguments that come up.

Dark conversions cast time makes it too wonky for PvE further the resources granted is not competitive with skills such as Templar rune or warden Betty and the such. It is only somewhat competitive with the mages guild spell sym but not even as the free cast afterwards and the amount given and the instant cast of it makes spell sym better than dark deal.

Cost reduction is not high enough reduction after blocking is one weak and two does not reliably affect DPS only tanks and then not even needed or wanted. It is a very wasted passive that even the target audience tanks don't need or even notive and would prefer something more useful.

Sorc sustain makes it untenable. Dark deal is part of the class identity in PvP but has no place in PvE. And it's existence keeps sorcs back in many regards. How it could be tweaked to not anger PvP sorcs LIKE MYSELF I have ideas but do not know.

Getting rid of the cast time on Dark deal is a start.

Mintaka5

IMO the problem is that sorc has been softened to the point of becoming a DD support role, especially magicka (stams seem fairly strong). It used to be that magsorcs could deal sufficient damage, but over the years ZOS has been nerfing key elements of skills that allowed for sustain related to magicka resources and damage mitigation (shields, and now racial passives that fed rosources), without making up for it in other aspects. While stamina elements across all builds remained for the most part unhindered, magicka users were constantly struggling with changes to their play styles, never really getting a foothold in a consistent build template. ZOS devs have overly focused on nerfing magicka on the DD side of things, and leaving support elements strongest (i.e. Negate ult, and Elemental Drain). Honestly when I use negate in PvP, or when someone needs Ele Drain for dummy parsing, it's the only thing that makes my character feel useful. DOT damage on magsorcs is meh, only improved for magDKs with flame skill focus, and the only place we see heavy damage on magsorcs is in burst/execute skills (i.e Crystal Frags, Mages Fury, Haunting Curse). These are great DD skills, but honestly they are so time delayed, that even filling them in with spammy skills, and light attacks that do minimal damage, just feels like an eternity in waiting to see what the end result will be: my kill, or my death.

Seraphayel

Conduit0 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nothing is wrong with Sorc, people are the problem here as usual. Sorcs are as welcomed as every other class besides some pseudo elitist groups that only want perfect classes perfect builds and perfect gear to go easy mode.

If those elitists don't want Sorcs it means Sorcs are under performing, which means there is something wrong.

It means there is something wrong FOR THEM. That's a huge difference.

Sorcs are nowhere near as bad as a lot of people make them to be.

Mintaka5

Seraphayel wrote: »

It means there is something wrong FOR THEM. That's a huge difference.

Sorcs are nowhere near as bad as a lot of people make them to be.

Yes, and that something is a worked over class (primarily magicka)

waitwhat

Derra wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

@Tasear

The main Problem (IMO) for PVE is that Crit is just super strong, and classes like NB and Templar can profit way more from crits, due to their 10% Critdmg passive.

So you´re saying remove 10% critdmg passives?

I mean they could do that for mag to help sorcs.

In all seriousness though, I'm worried about the buff to The Shadow on this front. It seems like a premonition to nerfs to crit elsewhere.

Pulque

One Sorc is recommended. Two are redundant.

waitwhat

Once upon a time, the magsorc was trials DPS king.

That once upon a time does not justify the under-performance of the sorc as a trials DPS now.

The issue seems to be that much of the sorc toolkit has been made irrelevant.

Everyone hates pets it seems, but they offer essential benefits to many sorc builds, and are in principle a good idea. They need to be retooled (again and again apparently) to decide whether they are useful or not. Ideas: make the sorc pets such that they do not need to be slotted on both bars, increase base damage of pet single target attacks, guarantee that pets inherit all buffs and bonuses applied to caster.

A build should not have high AoE and high single-target DPS, but sorcs are forced to straddle both. The AoE is better than most, but not by much, and the single-target DPS has been, for extremely legitimate pvp reasons, been toned down. Devs, and sorcs, will have to choose which one the sorc will focus, and will have to decide what trials designs best fit that selection.

The class remains accessible, with a simpler rotation, and hence some may argue that their dps output is by rights lessened, but that's not much consolation to those who strongly identify with their sorc characters, and the PvE rotation is no longer as simple as it was when concussed was king (i.e. without cooldown).

What's more, the sorc class suffers heavily from the decline in lightning damage. Tied to that element, as is the magden had been with ice damage, the DPS of the sorc class rises and falls with that element's re-balancing. The solutions here would be to either de-couple classes from elemental damage, or perhaps provide a wealth of PvE scenarios in which no one element holds primacy over another.

The current predicament of sorcs makes me worry about nightblades. This is the result of magsorc DPS primacy from Homestead to Dragonbone. Nightblades should take note and care about the issues with sorcs. The class you save may be your own.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

When you talk sorcs at serious end game, you have to look at what they can do and who else can do it better. Before we get too far into it, serious raiders (and raid leaders) simply dont want to deal with pets. Yes they are better than they used to be, but they still can cause issues.

Assuming we are talking mag sorcs, they have potentially 2 roles. One is a ranged DPS and the other is a Healer. Most Trial groups (not talking mini trials) are going to have 2 healers and 2-3 ranged DPS.

Healer: This is is the most common place you see a mSorc in high end raid. Do they heal as well as Templars or Wardens? Of course not. Only real unique healing a sorc can give to a group is their pet, but see the first sentence. In other words, they end up being resto staff healers, which is enough as there will always be a Templar there to pick up the slack. They are there for one or two things, their ultimate and the synergy that lets stamboys parse 80k, and sure, minor prophecy is nice, but not mindblowing (and you really only need one sorc for it). So if you want them to be more than a one or two trick pony for healing, they need other things to bring to the table.

Ranged DPS: Simply put, there is no compelling reason to bring a ranged sorc DPS when you could bring a mageblade or magplar. Sorcs have the worst sustain of the bunch, and their damage is the most RNG dependent of any class (Frag proc dependent). Their execute also scales at a lower health threshold, so they are not as good as handling burn phases as the other two. It's not that they are bad DPS per se, as good players can still make them sing, but there are simply two alternatives that are clearly better at the exact same job.

Obviously if you arent pushing score to the extreme, sorcs are perfectly viable, but really, so is any class. The only class that deserves an eye roll for DPS in a vet trail group is a magden....

Galarthor

Tasear wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

Dark Conversion takes too long, restores too little, can be interupted and on top of that takes up a slot when bar space is already and issue for sorcs due to the fact that their abilities are so one-dimensional.

Cost Reduction is simply not enough given the cost, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

waitwhat

Galarthor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

Dark Conversion takes too long, restores too little, can be interupted and on top of that takes up a slot when bar space is already and issue for sorcs due to the fact that their abilities are so one-dimensional.

Cost Reduction is simply not enough given the cost, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Also if we're talking about cost-reduction after blocking helping sustain, we should note that dark-conversion cannot be block-cast, so a sorc tank or dd is a sitting duck for a cleave or AoE during the cast time.

Galarthor

waitwhat wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Sustain is to crap on sorc really is the biggest problem

I don't disagree but why doesn't dark conversion, cost reduction, and cost reduction after blocking help.

Dark Conversion takes too long, restores too little, can be interupted and on top of that takes up a slot when bar space is already and issue for sorcs due to the fact that their abilities are so one-dimensional.

Cost Reduction is simply not enough given the cost, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Also if we're talking about cost-reduction after blocking helping sustain, we should note that dark-conversion cannot be block-cast, so a sorc tank or dd is a sitting duck for a cleave or AoE during the cast time.

That and who but a tank is blocking on a sorc? In PvE pretty much nobody. And in PvP you cannot afford to randomly block, lose stamina to then lose even more stamina when using dark deal.