Tanks and Healers = Buff/Debuff Bots

KhajiitFelix

This is kinda sad that tank and healers are used mostly for support. No reason to pick 100 defense but 0 support tank, but 50 defense, 50 Buff/Debuff is simply better because trials bosses don't hit that hard that you need a real tank. Well healers are similar, except it's 20 heals and 80 buffs and debuffs.

So how about making Sunspire requiring a real tank and a real healer?

mairwen85

Define 'real' in your terms.

For me, I consider

• a 'real' healer provides buffs, and debuffs -- and replenishes resources (i.e. health is just another resource); does damage when possible
• a 'real' tank holds aggro / controls the fight / crowd control, provides buffs and debuffs, and/or does damage where possible

Skwor

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

This is kinda sad that tank and healers are used mostly for support. No reason to pick 100 defense but 0 support tank, but 50 defense, 50 Buff/Debuff is simply better because trials bosses don't hit that hard that you need a real tank. Well healers are similar, except it's 20 heals and 80 buffs and debuffs.

So how about making Sunspire requiring a real tank and a real healer?

Pfft how about we start trying to find a real DPS instead, that is a much harder thing to find.

KhajiitFelix

Skwor wrote: »

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KhajiitFelix wrote: »

This is kinda sad that tank and healers are used mostly for support. No reason to pick 100 defense but 0 support tank, but 50 defense, 50 Buff/Debuff is simply better because trials bosses don't hit that hard that you need a real tank. Well healers are similar, except it's 20 heals and 80 buffs and debuffs.

So how about making Sunspire requiring a real tank and a real healer?

Pfft how about we start trying to find a real DPS instead, that is a much harder thing to find.

You didn't understand, by real tank and healer I didn't mean good or bad. I meant a tank that holds aggros but need to have a very tank build that has no place for buffs and debuffs. Same for healer.

Seraphayel

mairwen85 wrote: »

Define 'real' in your terms.

For me, I consider

• a 'real' healer provides buffs, and debuffs -- and replenishes resources (i.e. health is just another resource); does damage when possible

Not really. A "real" healer is healing and rescuing allies from death.

What you suggest is a supporter in the usual MMORPG sense.

I already complained about this, healers are degraded to buff bots in ESO and I really don't like that (due to limited bar space as well).

KhajiitFelix

Also it might be a problem with trials being based on DDs, so tanks don't need a tank build because they can buff DDs and it will make trial simply easier because most of mechanics are DD based so a tank with a support build can easily complete any mechanic needed.

Nightingale707

I do not feel degraded to a buff/debuff bot on my healer... on the contrary, where is the fun or challange in spamming healing springs for an entire bossfight? boring as hell!
what makes healing interesting, is keeping up buffs/debuffs, having good uptimes and supporting your team to the best of your abilities.

I don´t have a lot of experience tanking, but the best tanks I know also strive for good uptimes and are proud of their parses.

MartiniDaniels

There are several points here:
1. you may don't believe, but ZOS does what majority wants, at least majority of their combat folks. Since % of DPS mains in this game much higher then % of tank and healer mains, DPS opinion will always be a priority. And % of healers is higher then % of tanks, so tanks are in worst possible position here. Just looks at required set they are a complete trash for tank own stats, while healer sets are mostly beneficial to healer capabilities.
2. mechanical skill cap is actually lower for tank and healer then for DPS. I mean it's harder to hit 45k+ dps with all the precise rotation and animation cancelling and lags, then to just got experience what you need to do in certain situations. Yes, required concentration and responsibility are higher on tanks and healers, but mechanical skill is not. So basically any tank/healer players with proper experience and gear are welcome to any vetHM trial content in the game, while majority of dps simply can't qualify no matter how experienced and geared they are. So being a healer and tank is your ticket to highest league.

mairwen85

Seraphayel wrote: »

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mairwen85 wrote: »

Define 'real' in your terms.

For me, I consider

• a 'real' healer provides buffs, and debuffs -- and replenishes resources (i.e. health is just another resource); does damage when possible

Not really. A "real" healer is healing and rescuing allies from death.

So lets think about this logically then:

Health, stamina, magicka -- all three are resources. (pro-active healing)

1. If an ally has stam/mag = they can damage = kill before being killed = harder to kill.
2. If an ally has health = they can take more damage = harder to kill.
3. If an ally is buffed = they do more damage / have more health / have more resistance = harder to kill
4. if an enemy is debuffed = they do less damage / take more damage = allies harder to kill

So, if a player ensures all points above are met, they essentially fulfil your definition, yes?

Edited to add:

Actually that doesn't meet your definition -- the points presented help avoid death; your statement is explicitly rescue from death (reactive healing).

A 'real' healer does both -- but should be able to do less reactively.

zaria

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

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Skwor wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

This is kinda sad that tank and healers are used mostly for support. No reason to pick 100 defense but 0 support tank, but 50 defense, 50 Buff/Debuff is simply better because trials bosses don't hit that hard that you need a real tank. Well healers are similar, except it's 20 heals and 80 buffs and debuffs.

So how about making Sunspire requiring a real tank and a real healer?

Pfft how about we start trying to find a real DPS instead, that is a much harder thing to find.

You didn't understand, by real tank and healer I didn't mean good or bad. I meant a tank that holds aggros but need to have a very tank build that has no place for buffs and debuffs. Same for healer.

Its limit on how much you need to heal. Past that limit healer should do other stuff who is buffing or doing damage.
Then you have to heal a lot damage go first then support.

MartiniDaniels

mairwen85 wrote: »

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Seraphayel wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Define 'real' in your terms.

For me, I consider

• a 'real' healer provides buffs, and debuffs -- and replenishes resources (i.e. health is just another resource); does damage when possible

Not really. A "real" healer is healing and rescuing allies from death.

So lets think about this logically then:

Health, stamina, magicka -- all three are resources. (pro-active healing)

1. If an ally has stam/mag = they can damage = kill before being killed = harder to kill.
2. If an ally has health = they can take more damage = harder to kill.
3. If an ally is buffed = they do more damage / have more health / have more resistance = harder to kill
4. if an enemy is debuffed = they do less damage / take more damage = allies harder to kill

So, if a player ensures all points above are met, they essentially fulfil your definition, yes?

From tank point of view - main danger to survival are adds, which must be killed fast by mechanics. No matter how many health and sustain you have ton of adds will put you or your group down, so it's more profitable to buff 10 other people so they can kill adds faster, then trying to tank all those adds for long.

FakeFox

Supporting your group is, to me at least, a core element of being a real healer. It is what makes this role fun and challenging to play. If you would prefer to do nothing but heal, fine for me, but you seem to not understand why this would not work in ESO. Trials not having enough damage is not the problems, in fact in many situations the damage is already so high that raising it further would make them unplayable, because people would just constantly die to oneshots. At lot of phases already require constant high amounts of healing, but you can only push that to a certain point without completely reworking core mechanics. In vCR +3 healers already heavily build towards healing power to counter the high incoming damage and healing debuffs, but we still balance it with giving the maximum amount of support, I think this is the hardest you can push it. Further ESOs combat is not designed around complex skill interactions with long cooldowns, like other MMOs that have those pure healers as a role. Going for pure healing output in ESO means using basically one skill.

mairwen85

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

show previous quotes

mairwen85 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Define 'real' in your terms.

For me, I consider

• a 'real' healer provides buffs, and debuffs -- and replenishes resources (i.e. health is just another resource); does damage when possible

Not really. A "real" healer is healing and rescuing allies from death.

So lets think about this logically then:

Health, stamina, magicka -- all three are resources. (pro-active healing)

1. If an ally has stam/mag = they can damage = kill before being killed = harder to kill.
2. If an ally has health = they can take more damage = harder to kill.
3. If an ally is buffed = they do more damage / have more health / have more resistance = harder to kill
4. if an enemy is debuffed = they do less damage / take more damage = allies harder to kill

So, if a player ensures all points above are met, they essentially fulfil your definition, yes?

From tank point of view - main danger to survival are adds, which must be killed fast by mechanics. No matter how many health and sustain you have ton of adds will put you or your group down, so it's more profitable to buff 10 other people so they can kill adds faster, then trying to tank all those adds for long.

100%

VonSwaego

ZOS says “play how you want”.

Most of the players on the forum say “ use trials leader board meta”.

Pick one I guess.

MEBengalsFan2001

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

This is kinda sad that tank and healers are used mostly for support. No reason to pick 100 defense but 0 support tank, but 50 defense, 50 Buff/Debuff is simply better because trials bosses don't hit that hard that you need a real tank. Well healers are similar, except it's 20 heals and 80 buffs and debuffs.

So how about making Sunspire requiring a real tank and a real healer?

Most MMO games now have the tank and healer as the buffer and debuffer. It is fairly common now that tanks that don't buff or debuff are not welcomed into groups and the same can be said of the healer.

Damage reduction, defense reduction, etc... are always welcomed to the groups and here is why...

Damage reduction on a target means less healing needed by the healer for tanks and dps; making it easier for the healer and tanks to focus on other support function outside of tanking and healing.

The defense reduction or increase damage buff are way to improve run time through content by allowing more damage out by all members of the party; this results faster content completion time.

Why wouldn't anyone want these over an extra heal or a tank having a bit more defensive ability/health?

What is great in games is when DPS realize that by them also buffing/debuffing content become even faster and quicker; making runs even smoother. In other MMO games I have played my core group we started to all run hybrid builds and our run time in content improved to the point where we were forgoing tanks or a healer depending upon what we ran.

I use to think like you that tanks should tank and healers should heal but both roles are classified as support and usually support includes buffing and debuffing so it makes sense that healer and tanks do the buffs and debuff and hopefully some DPS builds do it as well to ensure smoother and cleaner runs.

SoLooney

Have you even tanked any of the vet trials or even healed any of them?

Tank a vet cloudrest hard mode with minimal heals on you and see if zmaja still hits you with marshmallows . Also, try running a vet trial without healers if you only see them as buff slaves

It's not exactly easy but not hugely difficult to stay alive as a tank either

It actually takes skill to not only taunt the boss, but keeping up debuffs and buffing the group

Same with a healer, anyone can heal, but buffing the group and debuffing the boss takes some skill

No idea how you got that perspective that playing support in vet trials is easy

RogueShark

Tbh I probably wouldn't main a healer if it was as mind-numbing as most MMO games where all I did was heal. Just healing is incredibly boring. Buffing, debuffing, and monitoring those uptimes as well as healing makes things way more fun IMO.

That being said I still roll my eyes at the absolute non-sensical "we want to make healers feel more needed so we nerfed shields... and added a ton of one-shot mechanics!" approach of Murkmire and Wolfhunter.
Can't heal one-shots, ZoS!

Princess_Ciri

why is this a bad thing? It provides healers/tanks a way to prove they are the best at their role, by surviving/healing and also providing excellent buffs and debuffs. Without those things you're just springs spamming which is boring.

Shantu

RogueShark wrote: »

That being said I still roll my eyes at the absolute non-sensical "we want to make healers feel more needed so we nerfed shields... and added a ton of one-shot mechanics!" approach of Murkmire and Wolfhunter.
Can't heal one-shots, ZoS!

A-friggin'-men!!

Tanks and healer roles are fine. Please don't imply that ZOS has to "fix" anything. That generally doesn't go well.

josiahva

umm, Tanking and Healing are SUPPORT roles. That's what we do, my gameplay would NOT be improved by doing LESS, it would just lower the bar to be a good tank.