How to make a stronger PvE Sorcerer

lassitershawn

PvE DPS Sorcerer is weak right now for several reasons as outlined below:

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Weakest mag DPS, used only for conduits and prophecy in serious groups. Both of these jobs can be taken over by a healer and a stronger DPS spec can be used, making bringing sorcerer as DPS specifically less appealing. Also, only one sorc at most is ever used in serious groups because one sorc can easily provide both of these utilities.

Weak sustain. Related to low DPS. Personally, I think having to think about sustain is actually an interesting skill in DPSing that is largely unique to sorc rn, so while it could use better sustain, I’m not sure just buffing sustain is the optimal solution. Sorc is generally considered to be an easy class to learn but learning to manage sustain with tools like balance/spell sym/dark conversion adds another layer of skill. If this is to be addressed it could be done by making cfrags free, making sustain passives stronger, or making dark conversion instant but more delayed.

Weak survivability. Hardened ward is no longer a stronger active defense than NB/Magplar have since it is on par with dampen (literally a dampen clone, can it do something useful?). Have to slot a skill that is bad DPS (boundless) for major resists that NB and Magplar get easier, same goes for major expedition. No heals without slotting a skill that provides NO DPS (surge). Magblade has strong heals with siphoning alone, and basically heals to full instantly with swallow.

Imo the optimal solution is to focus on ways to make sorcerer more powerful in PvE in its own unique ways that don’t infringe on the use of other classes in raids and don’t make sorcerer significantly better in PvP. The three best areas that I have identified are stronger AoE, modifying sorcerer ultimates, and making aegis do something useful for DPS.

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AoE:

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Sorc is often thought of as an “AoE” class but outside of petsorc* this is just completely untrue. It honestly has inferior cleave to magplar always and magblade in some circumstances. Buffing sorc AoE without significantly buffing single could help make sorc a bit more viable for DPS without pushing out these other specs.

Increased LL damage (maybe ~10%) and radius. LL is currently inferior in shards to damage and has a weaker synergy. While amplitude is a move in the right direction for sorc it also takes away the ability LL had to proc implosion. The cleave potential is weakened by the fact that you need to place it so that the tank can access it, often meaning you are missing cleave (like the minis stacked on the back of Olms for example). The other morph (flood) that can take advantage of more radius and damage could also be a place to buff the skill by reducing the cost to account for casting it more often.

Better curse AoE component. While the range on the curse AoE is ok, it is applied extremely infrequently and rarely hits stuff. Imo curse aoe needs a slightly bigger radius and to be “infectious.” A target hit by haunting curse AoE acquires haunting curse itself (can only spread off original curse). I don’t think this will be unbalanced in PvP because sorc doesn’t have strong AoE to begin with and this won’t suddenly make sorc bombers OP or anything.

Possibly buff boundless AoE, it is hard to get into melee in PvE sometimes and hard to find barspace for this skill.

Ultimates:

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Changing ultimates up a bit is a strong way to make sorc DPS viable > just outsourcing to a sorc healer because healers are expected to use warhorns.

Overload isn’t really liked as it works rn and imo could be changed into the cheap bursty ult that sorc lacks. Making at least one morph an extraordinarily cheap ult (60-70) could bring sorcs into the ranks of MA users and because sorc is lower damage and support DPS to begin with you sacrifice less running MA. Being able to provide slayer, conduit, and prophecy would solidify sorc as a powerful support DPS. Would probably work similar to a ranged soul harvest but without the damage buff component, maybe having a chain lightning AoE feature instead (building on the AoE that I think sorc should gain a bit of). I don’t think this would be overpowered in PvP because I don’t think anyone really thinks of soul harvest as OP without the damage buff, dawnbreaker would probably still be preferred for the stun, DoT, and usefulness against vamps in PvP. If it was a good option in PvP that isn’t really a bad thing either imo. Alternatively solidify this as a sustain ultimate and make it worth using over other ults.

Atronach is the unique sorc ult but currently it isn’t even strong enough to always warrant using over destro ulti (due to lack of cleave). Move the charged cleave atro morph to the base morph and change the cleave morph into an air atro to give poor stamsorcs something. Alternatively, give the major berserk to either more allies and/or the sorc themselves. Giving more major berserk would make sorc DPS more viable as support and is an alternative to overload being an MA option as the effect would be similar without as drastic changes to overload. I think this pseudo-architect functionality is optimal as it would be a support option completely unique to sorc that requires minimal changes and is far more viable on DPS than on healer. Should probably affect 2 allies and the sorc or 3 allies on synergy use. The increased power of berserk > slayer is balanced out by the higher cost over ults used to proc MA.

Aegis:

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Ubiquitous on sorc bars because of the passive but doing absolutely nothing useful when used. Keep the tank component for tanks, sorc DPS don’t care about it. ADD SOMETHING FOR DPS. Please.

Side notes:
Lightning staves and asylum staves clearly synergize with sorc more so than any other spec but lightning is really bad right now (suffering even more from the removal of implosion) and asylum staves have suffered a lot since the introduction of 2pc staves. Please add a 1pc to these staves (SD or maybe mag recovery) and make lightning viable for sorc, at least as a backbar weapon. Possibly increase off-balance allowed on PvE bosses.

*I am not addressing petsorcs in this because they are generally disliked for gameplay (really boring) in endgame PvE, have a lot of problems in raids, and are really an entirely different beast than is caster sorc.
**I realize that stamsorcs need some love too but I don’t play nor know much about them so I don’t want to speak on the topic too much.

These ideas probably need some finetuning and maybe only a couple could be implemented or something entirely different that achieves the same effect. Personally I think buffing the AoE potential and berserk potential of the atronach is the #1 thing outlined in this post that could be done to give sorc DPS more power without sidelining anything else. PvE magsorc needs something, it feels lackluster and sucks to sometimes just be outsourced to a healer for the utility of one synergy and passive.

RebornV3x

I agree with most of these changes good list.

lassitershawn

RebornV3x wrote: »

I agree with most of these changes good list.

Thanks, put a fair bit of effort into it as is evident by the wall of text xD

usmcjdking

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

lassitershawn

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Fixing sorcerer ultimates is definitely the way to go to make sorc DPS competitive vs outsourcing buffs to healers. Overload needs to be changed like you say and I think making atronach "pseudo-architect" would go a long way towards solidifying sorcerer as a very strong support DPS.

Tannus15

AOE
In my opinion the core problem for PvE end game dps is minor vulnerability.

Because this is a debuff applied tot he boss which affects the entire group, it only needs to be applied by a single person.
With sets like IA it can be applied by a support role, making lightning staffs significantly worse than inferno, even before you take into account the 8% single target dps increase.

Burning is good for each individual magicka dps, raising their personal dps. Minor invuln is not.

This makes the shock damage passive irrelevant. Slotting 2 lightning staves scales really badly in groups because you do less dps on a single target and you lose a lot of burning procs in exchange for a minor debuff which the group probably already has.

If shock damage could proc a damage tick like burning then there might be a point in looking at sorc shock damage increase.

Sustain Breton largely addresses the issues with sorc sustain. On PTS I can solo parse a 6mil without any sustain tools other than applying ele drain, magicka absorb back bar and witch mothers while using any set combinations. In a trial group I would either run blue food or change absorb magicka to spell damage.

Breton sorcs have no sustain problems. It's super fun and I highly recommend.

Ultimates
Atro synergy needs to affect the sorc as well as the synergiser. I don't care how many more people it affects. Atro is great and having atro on 1 bar and destro on the other is a perfect trial setup depending on if you want cleave burst or sustained dps.

Overload is trash and needs to be either buffed or replaced entirely. I like what they attempted to do with it, but it's still terrible right now.

My notes
I'd like to apply the daedric health bonus for having a pet summoned to having bound armour slotted. This will give sorcs a bit more durability.
Put minor berserk on boundless storm. This will give sorcs in vAS / no combat prayer an option other than wearing slime craw.
increase the damage increase on shock damage to make lightning staves single target be on par with inferno staff single target. inferno will still be better because of burning vs minor invulnerability, but at least sorc AOE dps will go up.

Tasear

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Damage was needed as someone said it was doing too much. Someone who doesn't like pvp Sorcs? Was it doing too much?

lassitershawn

Tannus15 wrote: »

AOE
In my opinion the core problem for PvE end game dps is minor vulnerability.

Because this is a debuff applied tot he boss which affects the entire group, it only needs to be applied by a single person.
With sets like IA it can be applied by a support role, making lightning staffs significantly worse than inferno, even before you take into account the 8% single target dps increase.

Burning is good for each individual magicka dps, raising their personal dps. Minor invuln is not.

This makes the shock damage passive irrelevant. Slotting 2 lightning staves scales really badly in groups because you do less dps on a single target and you lose a lot of burning procs in exchange for a minor debuff which the group probably already has.

If shock damage could proc a damage tick like burning then there might be a point in looking at sorc shock damage increase.

Sustain Breton largely addresses the issues with sorc sustain. On PTS I can solo parse a 6mil without any sustain tools other than applying ele drain, magicka absorb back bar and witch mothers while using any set combinations. In a trial group I would either run blue food or change absorb magicka to spell damage.

Breton sorcs have no sustain problems. It's super fun and I highly recommend.

Ultimates
Atro synergy needs to affect the sorc as well as the synergiser. I don't care how many more people it affects. Atro is great and having atro on 1 bar and destro on the other is a perfect trial setup depending on if you want cleave burst or sustained dps.

Overload is trash and needs to be either buffed or replaced entirely. I like what they attempted to do with it, but it's still terrible right now.

My notes
I'd like to apply the daedric health bonus for having a pet summoned to having bound armour slotted. This will give sorcs a bit more durability.
Put minor berserk on boundless storm. This will give sorcs in vAS / no combat prayer an option other than wearing slime craw.
increase the damage increase on shock damage to make lightning staves single target be on par with inferno staff single target. inferno will still be better because of burning vs minor invulnerability, but at least sorc AOE dps will go up.

I want atro berserk to apply to user + 2 allies or 3 allies because that makes it like pseudo MA. Gives sorc a much more solid place as support mag DPS than it is rn. Agree with daedric health bonus.

usmcjdking

lassitershawn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Fixing sorcerer ultimates is definitely the way to go to make sorc DPS competitive vs outsourcing buffs to healers. Overload needs to be changed like you say and I think making atronach "pseudo-architect" would go a long way towards solidifying sorcerer as a very strong support DPS.

I would actually like to see this ultimate work more like 2pc Molag Kena. When I think of a sorc goes into Overload, I imagine a scenario where the sorc enters a state of such horrific damage that they can neither control nor maintain.

No activation cost and drains like 20 ult per second, increasing damage from non-pet sources by 5% and increasing costs by 3% every second it's active up to 10 seconds. Have to remove petsorc from the equation since that could easily be abused by HA pet builds.

Tannus15

usmcjdking wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Fixing sorcerer ultimates is definitely the way to go to make sorc DPS competitive vs outsourcing buffs to healers. Overload needs to be changed like you say and I think making atronach "pseudo-architect" would go a long way towards solidifying sorcerer as a very strong support DPS.

I would actually like to see this ultimate work more like 2pc Molag Kena. When I think of a sorc goes into Overload, I imagine a scenario where the sorc enters a state of such horrific damage that they can neither control nor maintain.

No activation cost and drains like 20 ult per second, increasing damage from non-pet sources by 5% and increasing costs by 3% every second it's active up to 10 seconds. Have to remove petsorc from the equation since that could easily be abused by HA pet builds.

I don't see why it would need to increase costs if it costs ultimate to activate and maintain. Just have it allow the sorc to do massive bursts of damage.

usmcjdking

Tannus15 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Fixing sorcerer ultimates is definitely the way to go to make sorc DPS competitive vs outsourcing buffs to healers. Overload needs to be changed like you say and I think making atronach "pseudo-architect" would go a long way towards solidifying sorcerer as a very strong support DPS.

I would actually like to see this ultimate work more like 2pc Molag Kena. When I think of a sorc goes into Overload, I imagine a scenario where the sorc enters a state of such horrific damage that they can neither control nor maintain.

No activation cost and drains like 20 ult per second, increasing damage from non-pet sources by 5% and increasing costs by 3% every second it's active up to 10 seconds. Have to remove petsorc from the equation since that could easily be abused by HA pet builds.

I don't see why it would need to increase costs if it costs ultimate to activate and maintain. Just have it allow the sorc to do massive bursts of damage.

Because opportunity cost skills/items are generally fun to use? It adds a layer of complexity and depth that isn't otherwise available. So instead of dumbing the skill down into "hit button & profit", make is absurdly strong but have an incredibly difficult maintenance mechanic.

It might not raise sorc dummy DPS, but it will certainly make them incredible for stuff like destroying or burning high priority adds or through certain phases.

ZonasArch

To make a stronger character, never skip leg day, eat a lot of protein, stay hydrated, stretch well, and chase the meta. Meta is all that meta. Matter. Matter is that meta. No... Meta is all that matters. There.

Seraphayel

Tasear wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Damage was needed as someone said it was doing too much. Someone who doesn't like pvp Sorcs? Was it doing too much?

Absolutely. Overload LA was incredibly strong and too powerful. It was necessary to tone it down but the outcome now is debatable.

zvavi

well then, i don't wanna sound mean or anything, but they are buffing sorc with the next patch (pve wise). lets see how it goes. you can keep complaining later. i am actually pretty happy with the changes, cant wait to test my pet sorc.

twofaced

LOL! Magsorc is not unique?! I have 8 AOE abilities slotted. The damage magsorc can apply to an enemy group is insane. I tried other classes and all of them feel toothless and honestly suck in PvE. Only magsorc can melt trash so fast.

I'd like to see more versatility and surviveability, but it shouldn't be achieved in a usual way changing numbers. It should be qualitative change.
1) Apply dodge status to streak
2) Let clanfear taunt on attack
....
dozens of good ideas not breaking balance, but who is listening mere mortals here...

lassitershawn

twofaced wrote: »

LOL! Magsorc is not unique?! I have 8 AOE abilities slotted. The damage magsorc can apply to an enemy group is insane. I tried other classes and all of them feel toothless and honestly suck in PvE. Only magsorc can melt trash so fast.

I'd like to see more versatility and surviveability, but it shouldn't be achieved in a usual way changing numbers. It should be qualitative change.
1) Apply dodge status to streak
2) Let clanfear taunt on attack
....
dozens of good ideas not breaking balance, but who is listening mere mortals here...

Not to be rude, but I don't think you know what you're talking about with regards to endgame PvE. A non petsorc will at best have two strong AoE abilities, blockade and liquid lightning. Blockade is not a class skill and liquid lightning is small and must be placed directly on tank for conduit synergy (resulting in adds/minis held nearby like Felms on Olms' tail not getting cleaved necessarily). You can get a bit more cleave if you use flood but you hurt sustain and must cast it much more often, taking up spammable GCDs. Haunting curse is pitiful AoE. You also lose cleave if you use the atronach ultimate instead of destro. Templar always has better cleave and nightblade often does as a result of these factors. It isn't by chance that you see a single sorc in top vHoF, vAS, and vCR groups and in HoF at least it is almost always a healer at this point.

lassitershawn

usmcjdking wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Overload absolutely needs an redesign. The concept is fine but the deployment of the skill is very lacking.

It has the absolute worst animation in the game which has an incredibly long front & backswing. The damage on it isn't enough to mitigate the pain in getting through the awful animation. It needs a complete animation rework from the ground up.

The ultimate doesn't do enough. Overload doesn't feel like an ultimate ability - it feels like a budget Elemental Weapon that costs your ultimate instead of 2k mag. It needs to have more powerful secondary effects.

Fixing sorcerer ultimates is definitely the way to go to make sorc DPS competitive vs outsourcing buffs to healers. Overload needs to be changed like you say and I think making atronach "pseudo-architect" would go a long way towards solidifying sorcerer as a very strong support DPS.

I would actually like to see this ultimate work more like 2pc Molag Kena. When I think of a sorc goes into Overload, I imagine a scenario where the sorc enters a state of such horrific damage that they can neither control nor maintain.

No activation cost and drains like 20 ult per second, increasing damage from non-pet sources by 5% and increasing costs by 3% every second it's active up to 10 seconds. Have to remove petsorc from the equation since that could easily be abused by HA pet builds.

Sounds interesting, I don't really care what they do with overload as long as it is stronger than the useless crap it is rn.

What I'm most interested in is changing atronach to provide a bit more group support and maybe some cleave, in my opinion this is the best way to make sorc DPS more viable without outshining the raw damage of other classes because it provides good group utility in a similar way to architect, but unique to sorc.

lassitershawn

zvavi wrote: »

well then, i don't wanna sound mean or anything, but they are buffing sorc with the next patch (pve wise). lets see how it goes. you can keep complaining later. i am actually pretty happy with the changes, cant wait to test my pet sorc.

This is fair enough, amplitude is a step in the right direction. Still, I find it highly unlikely that it will match stam, magblade, or magplar for DPS leaving it a bit better than now but more or less in the same boat. I don't actually want it to outmatch those specs which is why I focused mainly on only suggesting buffs to cleave and group support.

Camb0Sl1ce

@lassitershawn love alot of your ideas here, amplitude is a step in the right direction but sorc definitely needs a little more.

lassitershawn

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

@lassitershawn love alot of your ideas here, amplitude is a step in the right direction but sorc definitely needs a little more.

Thanks!

FrancisCrawford

1. I agree that Liquid Lightning is a strong single-target boss fight damage skill, but not much otherwise.

2. Single-barring pets would automatically make sorcerers a little more powerful, and potentially also more fun to play. But that's obviously just for pet sorcerers.

3. In general, while sorcerers have been my main since beta, I find non-pet sorcerers pointless ... well, at this point. And pet sorcerer is pretty boring.

4. Frags used to be the signature skill of the class (pets perhaps aside). Buffing it so that it was useful again would have a lot of merit. Historically it's always been a single target skill, since the other morph has always been useless. But the name has always made it seem like something that should have multiple hits.

lassitershawn

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

1. I agree that Liquid Lightning is a strong single-target boss fight damage skill, but not much otherwise.

2. Single-barring pets would automatically make sorcerers a little more powerful, and potentially also more fun to play. But that's obviously just for pet sorcerers.

3. In general, while sorcerers have been my main since beta, I find non-pet sorcerers pointless ... well, at this point. And pet sorcerer is pretty boring.

4. Frags used to be the signature skill of the class (pets perhaps aside). Buffing it so that it was useful again would have a lot of merit. Historically it's always been a single target skill, since the other morph has always been useless. But the name has always made it seem like something that should have multiple hits.

Lots of people find pets (excluding atro) boring (myself included) and pet sorcs have a lot of limitations in raid. Slow target swapping and lots of heavies go counter to the burst that is stronger in newer trials and bar space is limited. Imo current sorcerer pets are one of the single hardest things to value between different aspects of the game and even different contexts inside of PvE and PvP. They need a total revamp to be fun imo and I intentionally excluded them for that reason and that they aren't commonly used by sorc DPS in endgame raiding (my personal focus).

Camb0Sl1ce

@lassitershawn I don't know what implications it would have, but right now its inferno or gtfo for the single target especially for the recent mini trials. Sorcs already have an increase in shock damage in their passives, but i wonder if increasing it a little would help shock staves synergize better with sorcs, at least as a backbar weapon.

lassitershawn

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

@lassitershawn I don't know what implications it would have, but right now its inferno or gtfo for the single target especially for the recent mini trials. Sorcs already have an increase in shock damage in their passives, but i wonder if increasing it a little would help shock staves synergize better with sorcs, at least as a backbar weapon.

Possibly, and I don't see a way to make shock viable frontbar without drastic changes tbh. I think the main problem is that shock blockade in particular does less damage than fire blockade.

Camb0Sl1ce

@lassitershawn true, maybe a crazy idea would be to allow sorcs to have increased off balance uptime or shorter cool down? Possibly tie it to bound aegis so it wouldn't just be put off on sorc healers.

twofaced

lassitershawn wrote: »

Templar always has better cleave and nightblade often does as a result of these factors.

I'd like to see a video they dealing 40k+ per target AOE DPS. Ofc for more than 2 sec and self buffed. If there is one, I'll take my words back and admit magsorc is useless sh*t, otherwise it's your L2P problem that you don't know the difference in classes.