Essay: Remove Sneak Speed Penalty from Nightblade

GrumpyDuckling

Introduction: Currently, every character from every class in The Elder Scrolls Online receives a sneak speed penalty that causes the character to move slower while sneaking. The only ways to remove the sneak speed penalty are to become a Vampire and purchase the Dark Stalker passive, or wear one of the following five piece sets: Night’s Silence or Shadow Dancer’s Raiment. While the implementation of the sneak speed penalty makes sense for most characters and classes, the one class it doesn’t make sense on is the class designed for stealthy gameplay -- the Nightblade.

Thesis: Removing the sneak speed penalty from the Nightblade class should be strongly considered because 1) the in-game description of the class suggests that Nightblade is designed for stealth and speed, and 2) the sneak speed penalty pressures Nightblades into Vampirism or spending a valuable 5 piece bonus so that stealth and speed gameplay can be better achieved.

Topic 1: Nightblades should not receive a sneak speed penalty because the in-game description for the class speaks to their reliance on both stealth and speed. The in-game description describes Nightblades as “Relying variously on stealth, blades and speed,” however the current penalty to Nightblade’s sneak speed impedes upon the class’ ability to rely on stealth and speed -- unless they use the same counters to the sneak speed penalty (Vampirism or the two aforementioned sets) that are available to every other class.

Topic 2: In attempt to move more swiftly and effectively in stealth, Nightblades may invoke Vampirism -- an option that if taken, may force some players to decide between build efficiency and their character’s lore/background and/or appearance preferences. While the weight of that decision seems logical for Dragonknights, Sorcerers, Templars, and Wardens (classes that are not designed for stealth but have the option to invoke Vampirism to gain stealth benefits), on the Nightblade it appears less logical. A class designed for stealth should not feel pressured to invoke Vampirism in order to make a core component of the class’ gameplay feel less tedious -- nor should they be forced to spend a valuable 5 piece bonus on Night’s Silence or Shadow Dancer’s Raiment to achieve less tedious gameplay.

Conclusion: Please consider removing the sneak speed penalty from the Nightblade class, as doing so would more accurately fit the design of the class, and would also lessen the pressure that Nightblades may feel to invoke Vampirism.

The purpose of this essay format is to attempt to provide clear arguments/objectives/reasoning in a style that most readers are familiar with, and one that hopefully ZOS will take more seriously (in that it is unlike posts that rely heavily on personal experience and/or emotional, knee-jerk statements and requests).

lassitershawn

Vampirism is honestly a problem in general for me. While this thread looks to be clearly from a PvP perspective, it is ridiculous that vampire is almost always BiS in PvE just for some mag/stam regen. I really think the devs should look into making the passives stronger (perhaps substantially so) but requiring the slotting of vamp skills to get them, or making vampires have much more damaging weakness to fire as you can barely feel it right now. Vampire is ugly and lore-ruining as you say and something so ubiquitous is clearly over-tuned in any event. Perhaps add more vampire skills instead of strong passives to make it appealing for that reason and not just passives.

Gnortranermara

Ok, but:

1. Require cloak to be slotted. (Meaning: make the sneak speed a passive of cloak)
2. And improve the so-called "counters" to cloak. The easy-bake oven potato button needs to go. Increase the reveal range on Magelight and Hunter. The tiny AOE is an absolute joke when cloaked NB's can easily outrun the range within the fraction of a second it takes to cloak and slip away, and the duration of reveal is way too short. And running detect pots is a garbage solution that prevents running other pots. This whole broken ability needs a complete rework.

Vesper_BR

I'm up for it as long cloack receive a RollDodge/streak/mistform treatment or have some kind of cooldown after 1 or 2 uses...

Nightblades resetting fights is pretty bad and annoying now. I have a nightblade and I can agree that's it's really unfair...

Another solution is to remove invisibility all together and make it some kind of speed buff/streak mobility skill. Or even a full Dodge skill for the duration time, like meridian armour.

Gilvoth

everyone [all classes] should have double the sneak speed that we have currently, because right now moving in sneak is about like crawling in mud.

Zekka

Nah.

Vapirko

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

GrumpyDuckling

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

GrumpyDuckling

lassitershawn wrote: »

Vampirism is honestly a problem in general for me. While this thread looks to be clearly from a PvP perspective, it is ridiculous that vampire is almost always BiS in PvE just for some mag/stam regen. I really think the devs should look into making the passives stronger (perhaps substantially so) but requiring the slotting of vamp skills to get them, or making vampires have much more damaging weakness to fire as you can barely feel it right now. Vampire is ugly and lore-ruining as you say and something so ubiquitous is clearly over-tuned in any event. Perhaps add more vampire skills instead of strong passives to make it appealing for that reason and not just passives.

I don't understand your comment saying that this thread "looks to be clearly from a PVP perspective." The sneak penalty applies across all content.

Feanor

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Nightblades aren’t a class designed to sneak. They have an Invisibility skill, and that’s about it. If you want to enjoy an advantage you have to invest something, that’s how balance usually works. Besides, changes to stealth gameplay have to be done very warily - unless there is an increase in the pitiful detection radius.

SaintSubwayy

Simple answer...NO

Unless Cloak gets a nerf overall, the endless spamming of cloak and shade to prevent fighting someone who can kill you has to stop.
we'll see whats gona be done towards that in this PTS, since the topic of CLoak beeing a free escape with too little counters has already been discussed by classreps.

Using Cloak on a Gankblade to engange an Enemie is already very strong, if you look on buffs you get:

Cloack -> Complete invisibilty unless the enmy Knows you're here, and uses detection in the righ tmoment, grant Majore Ward and resolve
Surprise Attack as Opener -> Guaranteed Crit (in Combo with Cloack), Stunns from Sneak unlessss enemy is CC immune already, Applies Major Fracture
Incap -> 20% DMG done boost, Major Defile on the enemy, may Proc minor Defile aswell (can also stunn, if SA didnt already)
Killersblade -> Execute, can apply minor Defile, heals you

So the SNB gankblade Combo is already very strong...giving them the free movement to get to their enemies even faster seems to be more OP than it already can be. (given the opponent doesnt expect you to be there, and takes countermesures before you can strike)

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Vampirism is honestly a problem in general for me. While this thread looks to be clearly from a PvP perspective, it is ridiculous that vampire is almost always BiS in PvE just for some mag/stam regen. I really think the devs should look into making the passives stronger (perhaps substantially so) but requiring the slotting of vamp skills to get them, or making vampires have much more damaging weakness to fire as you can barely feel it right now. Vampire is ugly and lore-ruining as you say and something so ubiquitous is clearly over-tuned in any event. Perhaps add more vampire skills instead of strong passives to make it appealing for that reason and not just passives.

I don't understand your comment saying that this thread "looks to be clearly from a PVP perspective." The sneak penalty applies across all content.

Yes and No...in PVE alot of ppl are Vamps, therefore they already have sneek penatly removal if they choose to let it go to Rank 4.
and Sneaking ist complete garbage in any PVE content, be it Dungeon, Worldbosses, Trials or Delves...its useless except for thieving, when thieving just be a vamp, gain 10% stam recovery on top, to refill your stam faster.

so no REAL use for it in PVE sorry.

Cathexis

I'm just wondering if you understand that every class is designed for stealth.
Every class has stealth builds.

That said, I don't entirely disagree with the premise of your argument, but invisibility already affords a monstrous tactical edge. Cloak is already circumstantially overpowered.

GrumpyDuckling

Feanor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Nightblades aren’t a class designed to sneak. They have an Invisibility skill, and that’s about it. If you want to enjoy an advantage you have to invest something, that’s how balance usually works. Besides, changes to stealth gameplay have to be done very warily - unless there is an increase in the pitiful detection radius.

Sigh. You can't say that Nightblades aren't designed to sneak and expect me to take you seriously.

1) The in-game description of Nightblades speaks to their reliance on stealth.

2) They have a passive perk in Master Assassin that directly benefits engaging an enemy from sneak (Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10% while you are Sneaking or invisible. Increases the duration of the stun from Sneak by 100%).

3) They have a skill in Cloak that grants invisibility for a brief period of time.

4) They have a skill in Veiled Strike that gives additional bonuses if used while sneaking or invisible.

The evidence is in the construction of skills and passives and the description of the class literally says that Nightblades are a class "relying variously on stealth..." It's frustrating that I actually have to spell this out for others. Please read carefully and look at the class' description and skills/passives before commenting. Thank you.

RamiroCruzo

Why don't we just delete other classes and make this Elder Scrolls Online: Night Blyat? =3

Left4Daud

Saying Nightblades are designed to sneak is like saying DKs are designed to tank and Templars are designed to heal. It’s safe to say based on the game direction of the past few years (new classes and constantly reworked class identity) that these statements are no longer the desired model, and players holding on to them are hanging on to obsolete ideals.

The devs are consistently proving with game direction that they want all systems (stealth, tanking, healing, etc...) available to ALL classes and play styles. Every new major update brings this kind of balancing to the game. Your proposition directly conflicts what the devs have proved they are more interested in doing, does it not?

They would sooner make stealth/sneak changes on a global scale, than give anything more to Nightblades than what they’ve already given.

Heck, with how much of a hot topic cloak is, you might see things taken away long before anything to the degree of what you are requesting is even considered to be given.

Chilly-McFreeze

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Nightblades aren’t a class designed to sneak. They have an Invisibility skill, and that’s about it. If you want to enjoy an advantage you have to invest something, that’s how balance usually works. Besides, changes to stealth gameplay have to be done very warily - unless there is an increase in the pitiful detection radius.

Sigh. You can't say that Nightblades aren't designed to sneak and expect me to take you seriously.

1) The in-game description of Nightblades speaks to their reliance on stealth.

2) They have a passive perk in Master Assassin that directly benefits engaging an enemy from sneak (Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10% while you are Sneaking or invisible. Increases the duration of the stun from Sneak by 100%).

3) They have a skill in Cloak that grants invisibility for a brief period of time.

4) They have a skill in Veiled Strike that gives additional bonuses if used while sneaking or invisible.

The evidence is in the construction of skills and passives and the description of the class literally says that Nightblades are a class "relying variously on stealth..." It's frustrating that I actually have to spell this out for others. Please read carefully and look at the class' description and skills/passives before commenting. Thank you.

So what?

Sorc's description says that they "can use Conjuration and Destruction spells to hurl lightning bolts and create shock fields". Yet I have to see someone hurl a lightning bolt. I can ride on one, I can hurl some crystal shards, I can make a little cloud that lightning strikes someone to execute him or shot lightning bolts from my stick, but never have I had the skill of throwing a lightning bolt. Especially not as a stam sorc.

It almost seems like the desciption are rather vague and ambitious, yet not entirely honest, so newer players get a basic grip of the class.

Also sorcs have a block passive and a block buffing skill, yet other classes make better tanks.

What this really reads like is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. Magblades can utilize your 4), and stamblades really don't need another buff.

GrumpyDuckling

Left4Daud wrote: »

Saying Nightblades are designed to sneak is like saying DKs are designed to tank and Templars are designed to heal. It’s safe to say based on the game direction of the past few years (new classes and constantly reworked class identity) that these statements are no longer the desired model, and players holding on to them are hanging on to obsolete ideals.

The devs are consistently proving with game direction that they want all systems (stealth, tanking, healing, etc...) available to ALL classes and play styles. Every new major update brings this kind of balancing to the game. Your proposition directly conflicts what the devs have proved they are more interested in doing, does it not?

They would sooner make stealth/sneak changes on a global scale, than give anything more to Nightblades than what they’ve already given.

Heck, with how much of a hot topic cloak is, you might see things taken away long before anything to the degree of what you are requesting is even considered to be given.

Your comparison is weak. Sneaking isn't a "role" defined in the game in that way that tanking and healing are, nor is the language of the class descriptions malleable to fit your attempt at making the comparison -- meaning that you can't change the language to make false comparisons. Saying Nightblades are designed to sneak is not at all "like saying DKs are designed to tank and Templars are designed to heal." Read the descriptions for both Dragonknight and Templar -- you'll notice nothing that says Dragonknights "rely" on tanking and that Templars "rely" on healing. The closest you'll come to attempting to make that statement accurate is the Templar description because it states that they restore health, magicka, and stamina to their allies, but it does not say that they "rely" on healing in the way that Nightblades "rely" on stealth.

My proposition does not directly conflict with what the devs have "proved they are more interested in doing." They want every class to perform every role -- they have stated that. Wanting every class to be able to perform every role does not mean that they have removed class "flavor" (the themes/skills that make a class unique), nor have they made any changes that contradict the in-game descriptions of what they want the classes to do.

GrumpyDuckling

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Nightblades aren’t a class designed to sneak. They have an Invisibility skill, and that’s about it. If you want to enjoy an advantage you have to invest something, that’s how balance usually works. Besides, changes to stealth gameplay have to be done very warily - unless there is an increase in the pitiful detection radius.

Sigh. You can't say that Nightblades aren't designed to sneak and expect me to take you seriously.

1) The in-game description of Nightblades speaks to their reliance on stealth.

2) They have a passive perk in Master Assassin that directly benefits engaging an enemy from sneak (Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10% while you are Sneaking or invisible. Increases the duration of the stun from Sneak by 100%).

3) They have a skill in Cloak that grants invisibility for a brief period of time.

4) They have a skill in Veiled Strike that gives additional bonuses if used while sneaking or invisible.

The evidence is in the construction of skills and passives and the description of the class literally says that Nightblades are a class "relying variously on stealth..." It's frustrating that I actually have to spell this out for others. Please read carefully and look at the class' description and skills/passives before commenting. Thank you.

So what?

Sorc's description says that they "can use Conjuration and Destruction spells to hurl lightning bolts and create shock fields". Yet I have to see someone hurl a lightning bolt. I can ride on one, I can hurl some crystal shards, I can make a little cloud that lightning strikes someone to execute him or shot lightning bolts from my stick, but never have I had the skill of throwing a lightning bolt. Especially not as a stam sorc.

It almost seems like the desciption are rather vague and ambitious, yet not entirely honest, so newer players get a basic grip of the class.

Also sorcs have a block passive and a block buffing skill, yet other classes make better tanks.

What this really reads like is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. Magblades can utilize your 4), and stamblades really don't need another buff.

Overload.

Chilly-McFreeze

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Nightblades aren’t a class designed to sneak. They have an Invisibility skill, and that’s about it. If you want to enjoy an advantage you have to invest something, that’s how balance usually works. Besides, changes to stealth gameplay have to be done very warily - unless there is an increase in the pitiful detection radius.

Sigh. You can't say that Nightblades aren't designed to sneak and expect me to take you seriously.

1) The in-game description of Nightblades speaks to their reliance on stealth.

2) They have a passive perk in Master Assassin that directly benefits engaging an enemy from sneak (Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10% while you are Sneaking or invisible. Increases the duration of the stun from Sneak by 100%).

3) They have a skill in Cloak that grants invisibility for a brief period of time.

4) They have a skill in Veiled Strike that gives additional bonuses if used while sneaking or invisible.

The evidence is in the construction of skills and passives and the description of the class literally says that Nightblades are a class "relying variously on stealth..." It's frustrating that I actually have to spell this out for others. Please read carefully and look at the class' description and skills/passives before commenting. Thank you.

So what?

Sorc's description says that they "can use Conjuration and Destruction spells to hurl lightning bolts and create shock fields". Yet I have to see someone hurl a lightning bolt. I can ride on one, I can hurl some crystal shards, I can make a little cloud that lightning strikes someone to execute him or shot lightning bolts from my stick, but never have I had the skill of throwing a lightning bolt. Especially not as a stam sorc.

It almost seems like the desciption are rather vague and ambitious, yet not entirely honest, so newer players get a basic grip of the class.

Also sorcs have a block passive and a block buffing skill, yet other classes make better tanks.

What this really reads like is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. Magblades can utilize your 4), and stamblades really don't need another buff.

Overload.

Must have forgotten that since the last nerf round killed it for me.

Kulvar

lassitershawn wrote: »

Vampirism is honestly a problem in general for me. While this thread looks to be clearly from a PvP perspective, it is ridiculous that vampire is almost always BiS in PvE just for some mag/stam regen. I really think the devs should look into making the passives stronger (perhaps substantially so) but requiring the slotting of vamp skills to get them, or making vampires have much more damaging weakness to fire as you can barely feel it right now. Vampire is ugly and lore-ruining as you say and something so ubiquitous is clearly over-tuned in any event. Perhaps add more vampire skills instead of strong passives to make it appealing for that reason and not just passives.

Make a "vampire bloodlust" ultimate ability so instead of being mostly passives it become it's own "class" to build around like werewolf ?

kaithuzar

Vesper_BR wrote: »

I'm up for it as long cloack receive a RollDodge/streak/mistform treatment or have some kind of cooldown after 1 or 2 uses...

Nightblades resetting fights is pretty bad and annoying now. I have a nightblade and I can agree that's it's really unfair...

Another solution is to remove invisibility all together and make it some kind of speed buff/streak mobility skill. Or even a full Dodge skill for the duration time, like meridian armour.

Yea, it’s really unfair that sorcs can spam shields, dk’s can tank 20 players & kill them with only leap + talons (& heal from 15% to full), wardens can use shimmering shield to make all incoming magic attacks hit like a wet noodle, implosion is still broken until next patch, & Argonian templars are impossible to kill because you can’t proc befoul on them; but hey who said it was supposed to be fair right?

FrancisCrawford

From a casual PvE standpoint, I agree with all this emphatically.

Starlock

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

From a casual PvE standpoint, I agree with all this emphatically.

Yes, it would be nice to have a bit more flexibility in sets for my primary thief character. I don't mind that Shadow Dancer is a mandatory gear pick for her, but nor would I mind if it stopped being a mandatory gear pick for her. That said, I'm not oblivious to the implications for PvP... and while I personally don't give a darned about that game mode, removal of the sneak speed penalty without giving something else up is probably not a good idea design-wise.

Ragnarock41

''Oh hey, lets buff the already overperforming stealth class at being stealthy , I'm sure nothing will go wrong.''

Sure, you can have your buffs, I will personally support you on this, after nightblades are balanced in an unbiased way and FINALLY have actual counterplay.

Gilvoth

this forum is filled with mainly a small group of sorcerer players, so very few nightblades here.
so is very hard to make any comments or threads to even discuss in the slightest anything other than sorcerer.

the idea of faster sneak speeds as well as greater stealth protection is now and has allways been a main interest of nightblade and it should be because of all the counters to stealth and all the stealth detection methods.

i vote "yes" to any sneak speeds increase.
and i bet if we asked the rest of eso community about it [by way of their @account] then we would see Much higher numbers in agreement.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

They already have cloak, which accomplishes the same thing. Cloak is also already the most overpowered ability in PVP. In other words, No Thank You...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Gilvoth wrote: »

this forum is filled with mainly a small group of sorcerer players, so very few nightblades here.
so is very hard to make any comments or threads to even discuss in the slightest anything other than sorcerer.

the idea of faster sneak speeds as well as greater stealth protection is now and has allways been a main interest of nightblade and it should be because of all the counters to stealth and all the stealth detection methods.

i vote "yes" to any sneak speeds increase.
and i bet if we asked the rest of eso community about it [by way of their @account] then we would see Much higher numbers in agreement.

That's a ridiculous statement. Most forum warriors (looks in mirror) play just about every class. Sure we might play some more than others, but I assure you, a lot of people dont speak from the perspective of one class. The only way to truly understand the pros and cons to each class is to play them. You know how I know cloak is OP? I play NB from time to time...

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Simple answer...NO

Unless Cloak gets a nerf overall, the endless spamming of cloak and shade to prevent fighting someone who can kill you has to stop.
we'll see whats gona be done towards that in this PTS, since the topic of CLoak beeing a free escape with too little counters has already been discussed by classreps.

Using Cloak on a Gankblade to engange an Enemie is already very strong, if you look on buffs you get:

Cloack -> Complete invisibilty unless the enmy Knows you're here, and uses detection in the righ tmoment, grant Majore Ward and resolve
Surprise Attack as Opener -> Guaranteed Crit (in Combo with Cloack), Stunns from Sneak unlessss enemy is CC immune already, Applies Major Fracture
Incap -> 20% DMG done boost, Major Defile on the enemy, may Proc minor Defile aswell (can also stunn, if SA didnt already)
Killersblade -> Execute, can apply minor Defile, heals you

So the SNB gankblade Combo is already very strong...giving them the free movement to get to their enemies even faster seems to be more OP than it already can be. (given the opponent doesnt expect you to be there, and takes countermesures before you can strike)

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Vampirism is honestly a problem in general for me. While this thread looks to be clearly from a PvP perspective, it is ridiculous that vampire is almost always BiS in PvE just for some mag/stam regen. I really think the devs should look into making the passives stronger (perhaps substantially so) but requiring the slotting of vamp skills to get them, or making vampires have much more damaging weakness to fire as you can barely feel it right now. Vampire is ugly and lore-ruining as you say and something so ubiquitous is clearly over-tuned in any event. Perhaps add more vampire skills instead of strong passives to make it appealing for that reason and not just passives.

I don't understand your comment saying that this thread "looks to be clearly from a PVP perspective." The sneak penalty applies across all content.

Yes and No...in PVE alot of ppl are Vamps, therefore they already have sneek penatly removal if they choose to let it go to Rank 4.
and Sneaking ist complete garbage in any PVE content, be it Dungeon, Worldbosses, Trials or Delves...its useless except for thieving, when thieving just be a vamp, gain 10% stam recovery on top, to refill your stam faster.

so no REAL use for it in PVE sorry.

You have obviously never farmed a set like Amber Plasm. I assure you, sneak can be very handy in PVE (of course its more useful in PVP).

Vapirko

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can slot the mag morph of one of your skills for faster sneak speed. I forget which one. But doesn’t stealth need to be easier? No.

Same principle applies to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack that it does for Vampirism and Night's Silence/Shadow Dancer's Raiment. The class designed to sneak is forced to give up a quality skill (Surprise Attack for stamina Nightblade), invest in Vampirism, or sacrifice quality sets in order to reduce the penalty for sneaking or not be penalized for sneaking. It just doesn't make sense.

Stealth is powerful, its only fair that you should have to sacrifice something to get it. The dark elf changes next patch are also going to fit very well into a vampire stamblade or magblade setup so you might consider that. Id love to have the forward momentum snare removal in medium armor and not have to slot shuffle and be able to get another utility skill on my stamplar, but unfortunately i need the burst heal and major evasion. It sucks but there needs to be some give and take.