Silver Leash

CrookedParadox

Silver Leash seems to be designed as a near direct reflection of Fiery grip and that's great for someone building a tank. However, I have two complaints:

1. Cost is nearly identical to the Magicka variant which means it's technically more expensive since stamina is also used for mobility and breakout skills.

2. The Crux of Fiery Grip for a tank is it's morph, Unrelenting Grip, which refunds the cost of the skill if it has no effect on the target. With the large hitboxes (xb1 experience speaking) this refund is crucial in making this skill worthwhile because a tank constantly has enemies in their face preventing lock-on to ranged targets.

Just in theorycrafting alone, I see this as serious challenge since 3/5 classes do not have a skill that brings ranged enemies into battle and I haven't seen other class neutral skills that can be used for this purpose.

So, vets with tank experience in Sorceror, Templar, and Nightblade tanking, am I missing a skill that replaces Unrelenting Grip or is this one of the primary reasons people lean toward Dragon Knight? Would love to see some discussion on this, I've been trying to theorycraft a Sorceror that deal a lil damage but can still tank most content (though probably barring primary tank for vet trials and vet dlc dungeons). Any constructive input would be appreciated.

AcadianPaladin

My DK tank uses Silver Leash instead of Unrelenting Grip. Depends on the build but my reason is to balance stam/mag use. Despite equal pools of stam/mag and decent magregen, I found myself running out of mag more than stam. So I morphed the ranged taunt to the stam morph and swapped in Silver Leash (stam) for Unrelenting Grip (mag). I find this works much better for me in trying to balance rooting (Talons - magic) with pulling in (Leash - stam). Yes, having a foe in the way of a target for Leash is a factor but I've found it to be not a big factor/problem.

Disclaimer: Though my DK tank is a 'main/pure tank' we don't run trials or DLC dungeons on this or any other character.

NyassaV

Leash does more damage therefore it will not receive any of the changes you asked for.

BejaProphet

I’m another DK that uses leash instead of chains. It’s fine. I’ve pugged all the dlc vet dungeons like that.

macsmooth

I don’t see why silver leash does a brief stun when it doesn’t even say it stuns in the tool tip

Jeezye

well im rocking a templar healtank and also use leash. I think its actually really good, kind of costly but I can easily compensate by repenting

DoobZ69

Pulling a target is not a necessity skill, its a quality of life skill. So if you're low on stamina simply don't pull because you don't have to. Magicka can be more important for skills like green blood so i'd rather run out of stamina in trash pulls than magicka, especially because a single heavy attack will give me enough stamina back to carry on but no magicka unless I am using a staff. Both virtually useless in a boss fight unless there's adds and the logic still follows.
Ergo I also use Silver Leash over chains as a DK.
Please remove both ZOS ^^

Solariken

The secret is jumping. You can get better targeting results by bunny hopping than by trying to strafe around the enemies in your grill.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Pulling a target is not a necessity skill, its a quality of life skill

I see it as absolutely a necessity skill. Makes the run so much better and faster.

CrookedParadox

NyassaV wrote: »

Leash does more damage therefore it will not receive any of the changes you asked for.

I struggle to see the minor damage done by either skill as justification to not balance them. It's so low that it's really not a serious factor and could easily be adjusted to match if that were a consideration. The skill is a utility, not a damage dealer.

CrookedParadox

Solariken wrote: »

The secret is jumping. You can get better targeting results by bunny hopping than by trying to strafe around the enemies in your grill.

Interesting view point and I will give it a try on my DK to see how I fair with it. I've grown fond of a slightly unique build that has my resources at base amounts tho, so just 1 or 2 miss hits will be costly. I suspect this isn't an issue for most but I don't really have any issues on my DK and would just like to try tanking with other classes.

CrookedParadox

Jeezye wrote: »

well im rocking a templar healtank and also use leash. I think its actually really good, kind of costly but I can easily compensate by repenting

Costly is one of the points I brought up. Ive noticed a trend with stamina morphs seemingly being lowered in cost and I assume it's because the stamina pool is also used for blocking, dodging, etc. That's why I don't understand why it would cost the same as a Fiery Grip which uses Magicka. To have it adjusted to be like Unrelenting Grip with the refund plus lowering the cost based on stamina pool, it would just be a quality of life improvement for tanks. I don't see it having any negative effects in PvP or just making it too powerful in general.

CrookedParadox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Pulling a target is not a necessity skill, its a quality of life skill

I see it as absolutely a necessity skill. Makes the run so much better and faster.

I also see this as a necessary skill. Some fights are much easier if you can pull in adds. Valkyn Skoria is one I can think of. The Flame atronachs can be deadly and the boss basically has a DPS check. Dragging the atronachs to the boss allows the damage dealers to continue focusing the boss and can help with survivability through aggro.

Hotdog_23

I say give silver bolts a magic and stam morph each so the player can choose the resources they want to use for they're build.

Plus they both need a 28 meter range and not 22 like silver leash.

Side note as a magical based tank that is not a DK or warden it would be nice to use magic based pull and not a stamina based.

More choice!

max_only

Shhhhhhh. Silver leash is finally beautiful, we fought hard for it, don’t call attention to it.

All my tanks use it. Even my Warden tank and my DK tank. My Warden tank doesn’t like how long Frozen Device takes to arm, but I’m getting use to it, some fights I need the leash, some fights the Frozen Device is fricken sweet. My dk tank uses his very small magicka pool for his buffs. All his points are in stam, he has more than enough health from passives/armor/cp/race/etc. So he can spam taunt and leash to his hearts content. Back In My Day, when I used to play NB saptank, Silver Leash didn’t pull mobs to you, it pulled you to mobs. Then they fixed leash but nerfed saptank 3 times in a row so..... My templar tank can’t function with out it. My Sorc tank never worked out for me, but I guess you can force it to work somehow. It will have to be a stamSorc with great stam recovery and you just need to use it smartly. Really, you don’t need the “refund if missed” once you get the hang of it.

idk

I use leash on my Warden and chains on my DKs. While you do have a point that it is more expensive, mostly due to it not refunding the cost if it cannot pull the target, I do not think we need skills homogenized. If we start doing that we might as well get rid of classes and have boring one build for each role situation.

I really cannot say I have an issue often with leash. My build is different to adjust for the added stam use.

I would much rather the bug with chains, and leash, get fixed where a random pull the NPC whiplashes back instantly as though they were never pulled except they have immunity. It is odd to see and clearly a server side correction that incorrectly occurred.

CrookedParadox

So the arguments against my ideas so far have been that the skill is "usable and good enough as is" and that it's "not really a necessary skill for a tank". I feel these arguments are stemming from the idea of fear of change though. Are there any game affecting reasons why balancing it closer to Unrelenting Grip and lowering the cost based on being stamina? Both of these changes would be improvements so long as it doesnt change the overall balancing of the game.

I also like the idea of changing the morphs so there are two variants, one magicka and one stamina. So long as they both are designed to pull enemies in, that would be great for building tanks in all classes.

usmcjdking

I'd prefer it's damage to be dramatically reduced as well as a cost reduction, it gets a little costly on a conventional tank build.

BejaProphet

CrookedParadox wrote: »

So the arguments against my ideas so far have been that the skill is "usable and good enough as is" and that it's "not really a necessary skill for a tank". I feel these arguments are stemming from the idea of fear of change though. Are there any game affecting reasons why balancing it closer to Unrelenting Grip and lowering the cost based on being stamina? Both of these changes would be improvements so long as it doesnt change the overall balancing of the game.

I also like the idea of changing the morphs so there are two variants, one magicka and one stamina. So long as they both are designed to pull enemies in, that would be great for building tanks in all classes.

It is cheaper than chains. And why would we be scared of ZOS buffing a skill we are already using?

ccfeeling

Zos won't make this skill better than whip or same level and theh stated that DK is the best tank in this game ever.
Non DK tanks will not have those useful tanking tools.
I feel Surprise that some DK use silver instead of whip , are u guys use it in hardest content?

Silver, time stop, what I feel they are just low tier skills.

I dont expect dev create something meaningful to non dk tanks, they just dont play this game.

Over 80% trial tanks are DK, I feel speechless.

max_only

ccfeeling wrote: »

Zos won't make this skill better than whip or same level and theh stated that DK is the best tank in this game ever.
Non DK tanks will not have those useful tanking tools.
I feel Surprise that some DK use silver instead of whip , are u guys use it in hardest content?

Silver, time stop, what I feel they are just low tier skills.

I dont expect dev create something meaningful to non dk tanks, they just dont play this game.

Over 80% trial tanks are DK, I feel speechless.

I’ve tanked a few trials as my warden. I don’t usually have the same time off when my guild runs trials so I haven’t done many. Their regular progression tank player is a warden though.

CrookedParadox

BejaProphet wrote: »

CrookedParadox wrote: »

So the arguments against my ideas so far have been that the skill is "usable and good enough as is" and that it's "not really a necessary skill for a tank". I feel these arguments are stemming from the idea of fear of change though. Are there any game affecting reasons why balancing it closer to Unrelenting Grip and lowering the cost based on being stamina? Both of these changes would be improvements so long as it doesnt change the overall balancing of the game.

I also like the idea of changing the morphs so there are two variants, one magicka and one stamina. So long as they both are designed to pull enemies in, that would be great for building tanks in all classes.

It is cheaper than chains. And why would we be scared of ZOS buffing a skill we are already using?

From what I'm seeing on Wiki (which can be wrong) it shows Silver Leash at 3510 stamina and Unrelenting Grip at 3511 magicka. While technically it is cheaper, 1 pt doesn't really matter when you're working with over 3500 pts each use.

As far as the scared part, people tend to dislike change and, more so, fear attention being drawn to something they already consider usable for fear the changes will be made in the wrong direction.

CrookedParadox

ccfeeling wrote: »

Zos won't make this skill better than whip or same level and theh stated that DK is the best tank in this game ever.
Non DK tanks will not have those useful tanking tools.
I feel Surprise that some DK use silver instead of whip , are u guys use it in hardest content?

Silver, time stop, what I feel they are just low tier skills.

I dont expect dev create something meaningful to non dk tanks, they just dont play this game.

Over 80% trial tanks are DK, I feel speechless.

While it's definitely clear that DKs are the top dog as far as tanks go (I have one as well), I just don't understand why the developers would put utility skills in the other classes if they didn't intend for us to at least attempt to make a viable tank with them. The mindset of DKs are the only good tank ruins a good portion of the fun that comes with theorycrafting in this game.

If 80%+ is an accurate measure for Trials tanks as a DK then I think that alone says it needs to be re-examined. It just seems to go against the design of the game as a whole.

CrookedParadox

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'd prefer it's damage to be dramatically reduced as well as a cost reduction, it gets a little costly on a conventional tank build.

The cost reduction is primarily why I started this thread. It just doesn't make sense to me, especially being a stamina based skill. I believe the only real use case is as a tank as well so the damage output it's basically irrelevent. They could drop it to 100 phys dmg and it really just wouldn't matter.

CrookedParadox

idk wrote: »

I use leash on my Warden and chains on my DKs. While you do have a point that it is more expensive, mostly due to it not refunding the cost if it cannot pull the target, I do not think we need skills homogenized. If we start doing that we might as well get rid of classes and have boring one build for each role situation.

I find it interesting that you bring up making skills homogenized because it would seem that most DPS builds are that way. Costs and application are similar with mostly visual effects and passives offering differences between classes. Looking at builds across the internet, they all appear to be a template with only slight variety because some skills outshine the rest. I think each class should have it's strengths and weaknesses but comparable skills should at least be similar in cost/performance ratio. This clearly isn't the case between Silver Leash and Unrelenting Grip.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Lowering the Stam cost of leash to be in line with other Stam costing skills would lower the cost 15%, or from 3500 to 3000. Not huge difference, especially when you consider that dk chains refund all the magic touch used to cast, if you can pull. I think that a better way is to simply not let you cast the skill if the target can't be pulled.

CrookedParadox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Lowering the Stam cost of leash to be in line with other Stam costing skills would lower the cost 15%, or from 3500 to 3000. Not huge difference, especially when you consider that dk chains refund all the magic touch used to cast, if you can pull. I think that a better way is to simply not let you cast the skill if the target can't be pulled.

If we got both of those changes I'd be stoked. I'd settle for the cast block tho. Good call

BejaProphet

@ccfeeling I don’t run a lot of vet trials anymore but when I do I run silver leash. I have also pugged all vet DLC dungeons with it. Not to prove I could, but because it’s stronger for my particular build.

@CrookedParadox game won’t let me in right now to double check but I would have swore it was a much larger cost difference. But even if I’m mistaken, the real difference is that we can simply heavy attack to get stam back. And by using silver leash I get a more balanced strain on my resources by leashing with stam and using magicka to root. But I’ll double check later when the game lets me on.

CrookedParadox

BejaProphet wrote: »

@ccfeeling I don’t run a lot of vet trials anymore but when I do I run silver leash. I have also pugged all vet DLC dungeons with it. Not to prove I could, but because it’s stronger for my particular build.

@CrookedParadox game won’t let me in right now to double check but I would have swore it was a much larger cost difference. But even if I’m mistaken, the real difference is that we can simply heavy attack to get stam back. And by using silver leash I get a more balanced strain on my resources by leashing with stam and using magicka to root. But I’ll double check later when the game lets me on.

I get that your particular build is able to manage the skill and it's nice to know that someone is successfully using this skill. Chances are that this thread won't see a developer's eyes anyway. However, my argument is the comparison. In a vacuum, Silver Leash is considerably more expensive than Unrelenting Grip and I see this as a imbalanced strain on at least 3/5 current classes in the game because they don't have another option.

MartiniDaniels

BejaProphet wrote: »

I’m another DK that uses leash instead of chains. It’s fine. I’ve pugged all the dlc vet dungeons like that.

++
Since we need magicka for claws and obsidian shield spamming, i use silver leash all the time, i simply don't remember a moment when i have magicka for 3-4 consequent chains.

BejaProphet

CrookedParadox wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@ccfeeling I don’t run a lot of vet trials anymore but when I do I run silver leash. I have also pugged all vet DLC dungeons with it. Not to prove I could, but because it’s stronger for my particular build.

@CrookedParadox game won’t let me in right now to double check but I would have swore it was a much larger cost difference. But even if I’m mistaken, the real difference is that we can simply heavy attack to get stam back. And by using silver leash I get a more balanced strain on my resources by leashing with stam and using magicka to root. But I’ll double check later when the game lets me on.

I get that your particular build is able to manage the skill and it's nice to know that someone is successfully using this skill. Chances are that this thread won't see a developer's eyes anyway. However, my argument is the comparison. In a vacuum, Silver Leash is considerably more expensive than Unrelenting Grip and I see this as a imbalanced strain on at least 3/5 current classes in the game because they don't have another option.

How did go from equal to considerably more expensive?