Wall of Frost is objectively overperforming — here's why

TheYKcid

This pertains to the Frost staff-variant of the Destro ability "Wall of Elements", and its morphs.

From the tooltips of the other elemental variants, we can see a clear pattern in the secondary effects procced by the ability:

• Flame: deals additional damage to Burning enemies
• Shock: sets Concussed enemies Off Balance

In both cases the generalised effect is gaining one additional effect, against targets that are afflicted by the elemental status of the corresponding element.

However, when using Frost staves... "Wall of Frost reduces enemy Movement Speed and immobilizes Chilled enemies".
In addition to performing a Frost-specific equivalent of what the other variants do, Wall of Frost also applies a constant AoE snare. This snare is also applied unconditionally (i.e it will affect you regardless of whether you are under the Chilled status).

The snare it applies isn't a minor one, either. While the tooltip doesn't state its value, I have tested it ingame using a speedometer addon, and it is a whopping 60%! That's double the value of Templar's Purge snare, for comparison with another common ground-based AoE snare. Almost every other snare of this magnitude has been nerfed heavily, either in terms of value or duration, yet Wall of Frost has remained untouched, making it egregiously strong in the low-mobility state of Murkmire PvP.

(edit: detailed comparison with Caltrops on page 3)

This is the very definition of "overloaded with effects", to use the terminology that ZOS employs in their balance notes. The current AoE snare meta stems from multiple root causes, but Frost wall—with its ease-of-access, spammability, and striking overperformance—is easily among the main culprits.

EDIT: To clarify my position—I think the immobilize-on-chilled aspect of the skill is appropriate. However, the snare is inconsistent with the design of the skill—and not to mention far too great in magnitude—and this is what should be removed, or at the very least toned-down.

Feanor

It has these effects though because it deals a lot less damage - Frost is still pitiful in terms of modifiers unless you specifically build for it, which has its own downside.

I agree though that 60% is a bit much. A mild snare - 15% would be way more manageable. Still, one has to consider the devs see Ice Staves as PvE tanking weapons. In that regard the powerful snare makes sense - tanks need CC options.

TheYKcid

But nobody uses these skills for their damage in a PvP context. Even so, the Frost multiplier is hardly much less than other elements. Altmer gets 4% to everything including frost (vs. Dunmer's 7% to fire and 2% to others)—not to mention this won't be an issue after the racials overhaul next patch. Wardens get 6% to frost damage, identical to DKs' 6% to flame AoE, and better than Sorcs' 5% to shock.

You're looking at maybe a 2-8% deficit on your frost modifier, at worst. Which in practice is less than 2-8% of your actual outgoing damage, due to the nature of additive stacking. That's almost nothing when you consider that the base damage of Wall of Elements is low to begin with, and people use it for the secondary effects with very little consideration for damage.

Immobilize is easily the strongest effect of the the 3 elements, and provides enough CC on its own. There is no justification for the snare on top of that, and it should be brought in line with the other elements.

PvE tanks have better class options in the form of talons/shards anyway.

Mojomonkeyman

Try to imagine playing a slow setup built around stationary aoes without executes. Now picture yourself trying to finish off any stamina setup in the game when soloing in cyro... Ill tell you what - it wont happen even using the oh-so op (according to your definition) frost woe. A single sidestep, a single dodge-roll will reset the snare on the very next gcd. Honestly, when soloing I never expect my frost woe to snare any enemy longer than a single gcd - because that's how it usually plays out.

60% snare might sound like a lot, not so much when it usually lasts only for a single gcd due to its narrow layout (compared to sticky snares or other ground snare aoes), does almost no dmg and cost 2k+ ressources.

Try to rely on frost stave chilled immobilisation for control without additional investment via charged/frost enchant, its pitiful - the immobilization procs are so rare, you can count them on one hand over a lengthy pvp session.

So, what you call overloaded and unconditional is actually VERY conditional and relying on both effects cooperating to generate reliable value. I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

Minno

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Try to imagine playing a slow setup built around stationary aoes without executes. Now picture yourself trying to finish off any stamina setup in the game when soloing in cyro... Ill tell you what - it wont happen even using the oh-so op (according to your definition) frost woe. A single sidestep, a single dodge-roll will reset the snare on the very next gcd. Honestly, when soloing I never expect my frost woe to snare any enemy longer than a single gcd - because that's how it usually plays out.

60% snare might sound like a lot, not so much when it usually lasts only for a single gcd due to its narrow layout (compared to sticky snares or other ground snare aoes), does almost no dmg and cost 2k+ ressources.

Try to rely on frost stave chilled immobilisation for control without additional investment via charged/frost enchant, its pitiful - the immobilization procs are so rare, you can count them on one hand over a lengthy pvp session.

So, what you call overloaded and unconditional is actually VERY conditional and relying on both effects cooperating to generate reliable value. I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

I immobilze better witha poison than i do Frost staff lol.

raasdal

Shhhhhh....

TheYKcid

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Try to imagine playing a slow setup built around stationary aoes without executes. Now picture yourself trying to finish off any stamina setup in the game when soloing in cyro... Ill tell you what - it wont happen even using the oh-so op (according to your definition) frost woe. A single sidestep, a single dodge-roll will reset the snare on the very next gcd. Honestly, when soloing I never expect my frost woe to snare any enemy longer than a single gcd - because that's how it usually plays out.

60% snare might sound like a lot, not so much when it usually lasts only for a single gcd due to its narrow layout (compared to sticky snares or other ground snare aoes), does almost no dmg and cost 2k+ ressources.

Try to rely on frost stave chilled immobilisation for control without additional investment via charged/frost enchant, its pitiful - the immobilization procs are so rare, you can count them on one hand over a lengthy pvp session.

So, what you call overloaded and unconditional is actually VERY conditional and relying on both effects cooperating to generate reliable value. I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

Faulty comparison, at best. Why would you run blockade in a solo openworld context, where mobility, versatility and burst are king? Obviously picking the most suboptimal use-case for an ability is going to reflect poorly on said ability.

That would be like an NB complaining that Cloak performs poorly in organised GvG, and asking for Cloak buffs as a solution. A little absurd, right?

The scenario in which Frost Blockade truly wrecks face is in static objective fights. Think flag/relic modes in BG, or holding a breach/scroll in openworld. The snare is absolutely unavoidable in such cases, and the immob is far from unreliable either—FYI, infused frost glyph + Frost Blockade backbar > Charged frontbar = a 96% chance to proc Chilled, and therefore immob, every 2.5 seconds.

Obviously it goes without saying that you can't balance the entire game around a single content mode (eg. BGs), and the same can be said about solo openworld—so neither argument/counterargument is by itself a compelling or holistic one. I would absolutely be welcoming of adjustments that boosted the efficacy of Blockade in a solo openworld context (in which I, like you, do not find it problematic), if it was correspondingly accompanied by nerfs to the areas in which it genuinely overperforms.

So, situationality aside, a more "apples-to-apples" comparison would be to contrast it with other skills that apply static ground snares. Templars' Sacred Ground passive, typically applied via purge? Half the snare value. DKs' Eruption? Slightly better snare at 70%, but a tiny radius of 5m—that's 74% less area covered than the 18×12m² Blockade.

Not happy with the cost of Blockade? Ritual & Eruption cost 800 & 1000 more mag, respectively. What about counterplay? In a static fight, 18×12m² is absolutely not side-steppable as melee, and the Blockade user dictates the pace of the fight. Snare immunity is your only option engaging into such a situation, and Shuffle costs about as much stam as Blockade does mag, but with a 2.5s duration vs. 8s on the latter.

Frost Blockade doesn't even add-up in the most direct comparison—to itself. As already mentioned, neither the flame nor shock variants have any equivalent to its snare.

jaws343

TheYKcid wrote: »

But nobody uses these skills for their damage in a PvP context. Even so, the Frost multiplier is hardly much less than other elements. Altmer gets 4% to everything including frost (vs. Dunmer's 7% to fire and 2% to others)—not to mention this won't be an issue after the racials overhaul next patch. Wardens get 6% to frost damage, identical to DKs' 6% to flame AoE, and better than Sorcs' 5% to shock.

You're looking at maybe a 2-8% deficit on your frost modifier, at worst. Which in practice is less than 2-8% of your actual outgoing damage, due to the nature of additive stacking. That's almost nothing when you consider that the base damage of Wall of Elements is low to begin with, and people use it for the secondary effects with very little consideration for damage.

Immobilize is easily the strongest effect of the the 3 elements, and provides enough CC on its own. There is no justification for the snare on top of that, and it should be brought in line with the other elements.

PvE tanks have better class options in the form of talons/shards anyway.

You are also forgetting that the Ice Staff does not have damage modifiers like the fire or shock staves do. So you are already trading either single target or aoe damage modifiers to run it.

TheYKcid

jaws343 wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

But nobody uses these skills for their damage in a PvP context. Even so, the Frost multiplier is hardly much less than other elements. Altmer gets 4% to everything including frost (vs. Dunmer's 7% to fire and 2% to others)—not to mention this won't be an issue after the racials overhaul next patch. Wardens get 6% to frost damage, identical to DKs' 6% to flame AoE, and better than Sorcs' 5% to shock.

You're looking at maybe a 2-8% deficit on your frost modifier, at worst. Which in practice is less than 2-8% of your actual outgoing damage, due to the nature of additive stacking. That's almost nothing when you consider that the base damage of Wall of Elements is low to begin with, and people use it for the secondary effects with very little consideration for damage.

Immobilize is easily the strongest effect of the the 3 elements, and provides enough CC on its own. There is no justification for the snare on top of that, and it should be brought in line with the other elements.

PvE tanks have better class options in the form of talons/shards anyway.

You are also forgetting that the Ice Staff does not have damage modifiers like the fire or shock staves do. So you are already trading either single target or aoe damage modifiers to run it.

True, but as previously mentioned, no one is really concerned about the damage of Frost Blockade. Neither the users nor targets.

I'm certain nobody would oppose a ~10% increase to its damage tooltip, provided the multiple soft CCs it applies were appropriately reined-in.

Edit: just realised you were referring to less damage output in general. Well it's not an issue if the Frost staff is run as a backbar (like the infused Frost backbar + charged frontbar setup I referenced earlier). It's even a pretty good defensive backbar option (as a substitute for the typical resto/S&B) due to the block passive.

StarOfElyon

I've been immobilized a number of times with this. It is just another CC headache for me only it's also AOE. It's like my two worst enemies had a baby.

Playing in BG is like: destructive clutch, wall of ice, roots, arrow barrage, Meteor, time stop, Meteor, destructive clutch, METEOR. Repeat.

TheYKcid

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I've been immobilized a number of times with this. It is just another CC headache for me only it's also AOE. It's like my two worst enemies had a baby.

Playing in BG is like: destructive clutch, wall of ice, roots, arrow barrage, Meteor, time stop, Meteor, destructive clutch, METEOR. Repeat.

The compelling gameplay model of BGs in Murkmire!

P.S. replace Meteor with Permafrost for greater fidelity.

Lord-Otto

All for removing snares, whatever makes the combat faster!

Moloch1514

So nerf PvE tanking (which is getting a nerf from enchant changes to 1H and forcing the use of Frost staff) even more, just for PvP. Sounds about right.

FrancisCrawford

TheYKcid wrote: »

The current AoE snare meta stems from multiple root causes

Indeed.

Qbiken

Moloch1514 wrote: »

So nerf PvE tanking (which is getting a nerf from enchant changes to 1H and forcing the use of Frost staff) even more, just for PvP. Sounds about right.

No PvE tank uses ice-staff for the snare iceblockade provides, get real.

del9

The snare is too strong for frost wall to have an additional effect. It would be more in line with the other elementals if they removed either the snare or immob; reduced the snare strength, or reduced the snare to a % chance to proc. Additionally, frost wall would be more balanced if a major/minor snare system was implemented as several players have been suggesting.

No one is enjoying the current state of snares.

Checkmath

How about AS staff, which procs chilled, concussion and burn every second cast of force pulse? Just add frost wall now^^

Koolio

I’ve been running this on my Magplar for quite sometime now. Even changed my build to have rattlecage to keep my bar space freed up. I have also been running charged with a disease glyph. It’s a great combo.

The issue that isn’t obvious is the magic block. You can’t block cast effectively while using moves. It will drain way to much magic even with Lich/desert/Argonian. Especially if your trying to use it as a defense or bar. You also lose about 1.5k tooltip(depending on build) of let’s say Honor The Dead because of the charged trait. So weaker healing and lots of magic drain is where I see the balance when trying to use it.

It almost ends up as a get away card for me more than anything. Think of it like magic caltrops.

Also Buff ice staffs not nerf them. It crazy that the ONE use of the entire skill line ( since ice staff is technically it’s own) is cried about. They were nerfed so hard and then inadvertently nerfed due to other staffs being buffed for Damage. We asked for ways to utilize them other than holding Block. This is it and it’s strong enough to be a contender.

Just my 2 cents

Koolio

del9 wrote: »

The snare is too strong for frost wall to have an additional effect. It would be more in line with the other elementals if they removed either the snare or immob; reduced the snare strength, or reduced the snare to a % chance to proc. Additionally, frost wall would be more balanced if a major/minor snare system was implemented as several players have been suggesting.

No one is enjoying the current state of snares.

They also restore 1k less magic then lightning staff don’t have the 8% Aoe/Single target buffs from the other staffs. Doesn’t do 12% more damage to heavy attacks(fire) or the 100% damage as AOE as lightning staffs.

This isn’t too strong when compared to those since it’s a medium ranged move.

Now if it had a 3 sec delay and a 21k tooltip of Damage then maybe it would be too strong. Wait that’s warden

Aliyavana

Ice wardens with perma and all those snares and roots man...

TheYKcid

@Koolio Most builds that run Frost as a defensive backbar do so without the Tri-focus passive, so they can continue to use their stam pool for blocking.

But overall I agree with you. It's not good design for an entire weapon type to have its relevance determined by a single, overperforming skill. Not would it be fair if that entire weapon type got rendered obsolete due to nerfs to said skill. I'd be in full support of buffs to the healthy and non-cheesy aspects of Frost staves, in tandem with Frost Wall nerfs.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I get it, you wouldn't care if frost staves lose all of their pvp value, because you arw annoyed by /dont use them. Not everyone is a stamblade or magsorc tho and can benefit from superior mobility to secure kills.

Funny anecdote that occured to me: a non-negligible potion of the Magblade & Magsorc population on PCNA BGs are running Frost Wall, so...

TheYKcid

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

The current AoE snare meta stems from multiple root causes

Indeed.

Wasn't intentional, but I'll roll with it.

Hey! Rolling, one of the few ways to get out of that root...

Solariken

I agree with the problems stated, just not sure what the proper adjustment should be yet.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Enchant one of your jewelry with as frost resist, you will never be rooted by ice wall. Or be a Nord.

TheYKcid

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Enchant one of your jewelry with as frost resist, you will never be rooted by ice wall. Or be a Nord.

I don't actually have a problem with the root by itself, though. After all, it is the Frost variants' unique effect to proc upon elemental status.

The snare is the bigger issue imo. It shouldn't even exist on this skill, and few would argue that we already have enough snares ingame. In fact, a problem with our current snare system—specifically highlighted by devs and players alike—is the attachment of free snares on skills that are otherwise already good and purposeful.

In the case of Frost Wall, not only is the snare freely attached, it shouldn't even exist by the design framework of the ability, when taking reference from the Flame & Shock variants.

CatchMeTrolling

It’s the snare , they need to cap every snare to 30-40 percent. Major expedition should be the counter to avoid being snared down , along with a snare removal.

TheYKcid

Edited the OP to clarify my position on this ability. I think the root-on-chilled effect, by itself, is FINE and consistent with the abilty's design. The snare however does not belong.

Solariken

TheYKcid wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Enchant one of your jewelry with as frost resist, you will never be rooted by ice wall. Or be a Nord.

I don't actually have a problem with the root by itself, though. After all, it is the Frost variants' unique effect to proc upon elemental status.

The snare is the bigger issue imo. It shouldn't even exist on this skill, and few would argue that we already have enough snares ingame. In fact, a problem with our current snare system—specifically highlighted by devs and players alike—is the attachment of free snares on skills that are otherwise already good and purposeful.

In the case of Frost Wall, not only is the snare freely attached, it shouldn't even exist by the design framework of the ability, when taking reference from the Flame & Shock variants.

Yeah that's the thing, snares need to be taken away from other skills first, and that alone could change the landscape.

Templar Sun Fire and Jabs for example do NOT need snares (I main a Templar y'all, don't rage at me) when the class already has a freaking football field of snares in Sacred Ground.

Also with Dual Wield - either Hidden Blade or Rending should have a snare, but not both.

And then there are pets of all kinds that apply that generic rear-hit snare that is annoying AF and totally unnecessary.

Frost Wall needs its snare because it's area denial like Caltrops. I would change some of the other AoE offenders first like Time Stop and Permafrost.

TheYKcid

Solariken wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Enchant one of your jewelry with as frost resist, you will never be rooted by ice wall. Or be a Nord.

I don't actually have a problem with the root by itself, though. After all, it is the Frost variants' unique effect to proc upon elemental status.

The snare is the bigger issue imo. It shouldn't even exist on this skill, and few would argue that we already have enough snares ingame. In fact, a problem with our current snare system—specifically highlighted by devs and players alike—is the attachment of free snares on skills that are otherwise already good and purposeful.

In the case of Frost Wall, not only is the snare freely attached, it shouldn't even exist by the design framework of the ability, when taking reference from the Flame & Shock variants.

Yeah that's the thing, snares need to be taken away from other skills first, and that alone could change the landscape.

Templar Sun Fire and Jabs for example do NOT need snares (I main a Templar y'all, don't rage at me) when the class already has a freaking football field of snares in Sacred Ground.

Also with Dual Wield - either Hidden Blade or Rending should have a snare, but not both.

And then there are pets of all kinds that apply that generic rear-hit snare that is annoying AF and totally unnecessary.

Frost Wall needs its snare because it's area denial like Caltrops. I would change some of the other AoE offenders first like Time Stop and Permafrost.

Caltrops doesn't immobilize though, and generally has half the snare value (but possibly 70% for the first 3 seconds, if and only if targets are hit by the first tick upon application). If we're comparing the two skills as functional equivalents, this alone should suggest that Frost Wall is overloaded with effects.

If the snare absolutely needs to remain for some reason, it needs to be reduced to reflect the the other strengths of the skill.

Haashhtaag

There is no reason that the Templar cleanse has a snare.

sharquez

I would argue that that the snare and roots on frost staves are fine simply for the fact that skills like, forward, momentum, Shuffle, purge, cleansing ritual, exist. Its not as if the snare or roots are unable to be mitigated in anyway. Frost blockade area denial is one of the counterplay tools to the rock humping mechanic we all 'love' so much and removing the ability to punish positioning like that would only cater to those depraved geophiles.

Frost blockade's power in objective based engagements is definitely noticeable but that's how area denial tools in most games are. I'd say that in sheer killing power, ESO has the weakest persistent area denial tools (outside of siege) in any game I've played, but thats because of a general focus on catching you out of position and allowing the players to punish your misplay than simply killing you.