With Epic removing random loot boxes from Fortnite...

Suddwrath

Will/should ZOS follow suit?

Epic is changing their loot boxes system to where players can see the content of the box before they purchase it thus removing the random factor. The contents inside of the boxes will change, but players will know what they are purchasing beforehand.

Haashhtaag

Removing the gambling aspect of it will make them bypass whatever regulations the feds will put in loot box gambling.

Yellow_Monolith

Just remove lootboxes in general and let people buy what they want individually. Nobody wanted Nix hounds

Wildberryjack

I'd be for it. Take everything from the crates and put it all in the crown store. I might buy crates every now and then if I have cash to spare but I'd be way more inclined to buy crowns to buy the items directly over having to gamble and hope I get what I want.

Suddwrath

Cactus316000 wrote: »

Just remove lootboxes in general and let people buy what they want individually. Nobody wanted Nix hounds

I'm all for just allowing players to buy what they want.

Look, I get that ZOS wants to make money. It's a business. But just get rid of the gambling and allow players to buy that one specific item they want rather than risk having to spend $100+ opening boxes full of stuff they don't want.

If that would mean ZOS has to raise the prices of individual items then so be it, but at least that way players won't have to gamble to get the 1 thing that they want.

Smaxx

SaltySudd wrote: »

Will/should ZOS follow suit?

Epic is changing their loot boxes system to where players can see the content of the box before they purchase it thus removing the random factor. The contents inside of the boxes will change, but players will know what they are purchasing beforehand.

While I haven't read any news regarding this, what you describe sounds a lot like what Valve did to circumvent gambling laws while keeping the very same system in place: They simply "offer" you a random selection of crappy items and that offer will only change once you buy the offered items. So all they do is basically revealing you in advance what you'll get in your next "loot box" that you buy.

To be honest, that system is not really better. It might prevent cases of "I just want to buy one and see what I get", but it just circumvents regulation without improving the situation.

Suddwrath

Smaxx wrote: »

While I haven't read any news regarding this, what you describe sounds a lot like what Valve did to circumvent gambling laws while keeping the very same system in place: They simply "offer" you a random selection of crappy items and that offer will only change once you buy the offered items. So all they do is basically revealing you in advance what you'll get in your next "loot box" that you buy.

To be honest, that system is not really better. It might prevent cases of "I just want to buy one and see what I get", but it just circumvents regulation without improving the situation.

The system that Epic will be implementing is that the loot box content will refresh every day, so players won't have to buy a box just to get the new box. I'd post a link but I think linking outside articles is against forum rules.

Hamish999

People keep saying about circumventing laws. There are no laws to circumvent! The contents of ZoS's Crown Crates are purely cosmetic and do not come under any gambling laws.
If it we could get some powerful weapons or armour or upgrades then that would be a different (legal) matter entirely.

Skwor

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

Suddwrath

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

FlyingSwan

Hamish999 wrote: »

People keep saying about circumventing laws. There are no laws to circumvent! The contents of ZoS's Crown Crates are purely cosmetic and do not come under any gambling laws.
If it we could get some powerful weapons or armour or upgrades then that would be a different (legal) matter entirely.

Not correct. Belgium & Netherlands found loot boxes to be illegal gambling, which forced the change. This will near definitely percolate out to the EU as a whole and, as it's the largest single market in the world, no retailer wants to fall afoul of it.

Brrrofski

I don't get it...

If you don't like the gambling aspect, don't buy them.

They are cosmetic items. They don't change the game at all. You're not forced to buy into the horrible RNG of the boxes.

If people stopped buying them, maybe ZOS would rethink their selling practice. Boycott them entirely if you want really change. Money talks more than forum posts.

It's not a dig at you OP, there's a million threads complaining about them. Just stop buying the crap.

Suddwrath

Brrrofski wrote: »

If you don't like the gambling aspect, don't buy them.

Well the issue mostly revolves around it being an issue for 1) Players with addictive personalities, and 2) It affects children. Someone under 18 can't gamble in a casino, but yet they are able to buy loot boxes despite it being a form of gambling.

Skwor

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

ESO crates do not meet any legal definition for gambling in the US what it does meet is a definition for gaming which has yet to be tested in the US courts and if it is it is likely to be found legal. So again who cares?

Please do not bother trying to argue otherwise not going to litigate this issue on a forum debate again.

FlyingSwan

Skwor wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

ESO crates do not meet any legal definition for gambling in the US. So again who cares?

I imagine ZOS cares because the EU have started to care. The EU is more lucrative than the USA market and have sovereignty that extends into non-EU countries, in the context of, "you want to sell to our citizens, you obey our consumer laws". i.e. It was the EU who drove the Steam changes around refunds.

Skwor

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

ESO crates do not meet any legal definition for gambling in the US. So again who cares?

I imagine ZOS cares because the EU have started to care. The EU is more lucrative than the USA market and have sovereignty that extends into non-EU countries, in the context of, "you want to sell to our citizens, you obey our consumer laws". i.e. It was the EU who drove the Steam changes around refunds.

Yawn. Sorry but the EU drives changes for the EU not the US. If it is a big enough headache from the Nanny State EU you will just lose the game. The US market is more than sufficient to keep US servers running with a profit.

Also not buying the EU market as being more lucrative, regardless though it is profitable so it does not matter which is more lucrative.

Businesses have always had to tailor their practices for other sovereign countries nothing new there.

Danikat

I'd be in favour of this. I don't buy crown crates, or any type of loot box, because I don't gamble with real money. (And yes I know I can buy crowns with gold, but thats very expensive and still results in ZOS getting a sale for loot boxes.) So anything which enables crown crate items to be purchased directly is good for me, whether it's a pack of items or individual ones.

SaltySudd wrote: »

Smaxx wrote: »

While I haven't read any news regarding this, what you describe sounds a lot like what Valve did to circumvent gambling laws while keeping the very same system in place: They simply "offer" you a random selection of crappy items and that offer will only change once you buy the offered items. So all they do is basically revealing you in advance what you'll get in your next "loot box" that you buy.

To be honest, that system is not really better. It might prevent cases of "I just want to buy one and see what I get", but it just circumvents regulation without improving the situation.

The system that Epic will be implementing is that the loot box content will refresh every day, so players won't have to buy a box just to get the new box. I'd post a link but I think linking outside articles is against forum rules.

As far as I'm aware there is no rule against posting links to other sites. People do it all the time so if there is a rule it's not very well enforced.

Hamish999 wrote: »

People keep saying about circumventing laws. There are no laws to circumvent! The contents of ZoS's Crown Crates are purely cosmetic and do not come under any gambling laws.
If it we could get some powerful weapons or armour or upgrades then that would be a different (legal) matter entirely.

The law is different in each country, but under current gambling legislation I'm aware of, particularly the USA and UK, that's irrelevant. What makes it legal without a gambling licence is that you always get something and legally we don't own anything on our accounts, including crowns, crown gems and crown store items, so you get nothing with a monetary value no matter what. Legally you're buying access to an additional service when you buy crowns, not currency or items. (Which is why they don't have to refund crown purchases.)

The fact that crown crate items are purely cosmetic might help ZOS escape criticism during discussions of whether loot box specific legislation is needed, but it won't necessarily protect them from the consequences. If legislators decide to simply say you cannot sell random items or a chance at the item you want and don't specify what type of items are and are not allowed then crown crates will be affected.

Of course it could go the other way too. For example if the UK decided loot boxes, including cosmetic ones, are gambling and come under current gambling laws that wouldn't prevent them being sold. It wouldn't even change the age rating of the game since it's already 18+ thanks to the justice system. ZOS would have to buy a gambling licence, but that's literally a matter of applying, paying the free and abiding by some fairly simple rules, and they may well decide it's worth the cost of the licence for the profit they make from crown crates. In which case absolutely nothing would change for players.

Skwor

Danikat wrote: »

I'd be in favour of this. I don't buy crown crates, or any type of loot box, because I don't gamble with real money. (And yes I know I can buy crowns with gold, but thats very expensive and still results in ZOS getting a sale for loot boxes.) So anything which enables crown crate items to be purchased directly is good for me, whether it's a pack of items or individual ones.

SaltySudd wrote: »

Smaxx wrote: »

While I haven't read any news regarding this, what you describe sounds a lot like what Valve did to circumvent gambling laws while keeping the very same system in place: They simply "offer" you a random selection of crappy items and that offer will only change once you buy the offered items. So all they do is basically revealing you in advance what you'll get in your next "loot box" that you buy.

To be honest, that system is not really better. It might prevent cases of "I just want to buy one and see what I get", but it just circumvents regulation without improving the situation.

The system that Epic will be implementing is that the loot box content will refresh every day, so players won't have to buy a box just to get the new box. I'd post a link but I think linking outside articles is against forum rules.

As far as I'm aware there is no rule against posting links to other sites. People do it all the time so if there is a rule it's not very well enforced.

Hamish999 wrote: »

People keep saying about circumventing laws. There are no laws to circumvent! The contents of ZoS's Crown Crates are purely cosmetic and do not come under any gambling laws.
If it we could get some powerful weapons or armour or upgrades then that would be a different (legal) matter entirely.

The law is different in each country, but under current gambling legislation I'm aware of, particularly the USA and UK, that's irrelevant. What makes it legal without a gambling licence is that you always get something and legally we don't own anything on our accounts, including crowns, crown gems and crown store items, so you get nothing with a monetary value no matter what. Legally you're buying access to an additional service when you buy crowns, not currency or items. (Which is why they don't have to refund crown purchases.)

The fact that crown crate items are purely cosmetic might help ZOS escape criticism during discussions of whether loot box specific legislation is needed, but it won't necessarily protect them from the consequences. If legislators decide to simply say you cannot sell random items or a chance at the item you want and don't specify what type of items are and are not allowed then crown crates will be affected.

Of course it could go the other way too. For example if the UK decided loot boxes, including cosmetic ones, are gambling and come under current gambling laws that wouldn't prevent them being sold. It wouldn't even change the age rating of the game since it's already 18+ thanks to the justice system. ZOS would have to buy a gambling licence, but that's literally a matter of applying, paying the free and abiding by some fairly simple rules, and they may well decide it's worth the cost of the licence for the profit they make from crown crates. In which case absolutely nothing would change for players.

Someone who gets it. I just got tired of explaining this to people. Good job btw.

FlyingSwan

Skwor wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

ESO crates do not meet any legal definition for gambling in the US. So again who cares?

I imagine ZOS cares because the EU have started to care. The EU is more lucrative than the USA market and have sovereignty that extends into non-EU countries, in the context of, "you want to sell to our citizens, you obey our consumer laws". i.e. It was the EU who drove the Steam changes around refunds.

Yawn. Sorry but the EU drives changes for the EU not the US. If it is a big enough headache from the Nanny State EU you will just lose the game. The US market is more than sufficient to keep US servers running with a profit.
.

Sorry, but you are wrong. When selling within the EU, to an EU currency, the EU member state and eventually the EU overseeing courts have jurisdiction. No one has ever pulled a game from the EU, we are simply too rich to not want to do business with. Steam changed their entire stance on refunds due to EU pressure, for example, and there were loads of blowhards on the Steam forums saying they would pull out of the EU. It's all about numbers, and whilst the US is a nice market, it's just not that rich compared to the EU and APAC.

So yes, ZOS could keep the USA server lights on but that's actually their smallest market (out of the big three) so would be a bit of a stupid basket to put eggs into.

Acrolas

Certainly a good move for the two or three people who actually play Fortnite's single player campaign.

Quite circumstantial for the rest of the gaming world.

iiYuki

They should remove them regardless and do the right thing instead of trying to exploit vulnerable people who get addicted to gambling.

FlyingSwan

Danikat wrote: »

I'd be in favour of this. I don't buy crown crates, or any type of loot box, because I don't gamble with real money. (And yes I know I can buy crowns with gold, but thats very expensive and still results in ZOS getting a sale for loot boxes.) So anything which enables crown crate items to be purchased directly is good for me, whether it's a pack of items or individual ones.

SaltySudd wrote: »

Smaxx wrote: »

While I haven't read any news regarding this, what you describe sounds a lot like what Valve did to circumvent gambling laws while keeping the very same system in place: They simply "offer" you a random selection of crappy items and that offer will only change once you buy the offered items. So all they do is basically revealing you in advance what you'll get in your next "loot box" that you buy.

To be honest, that system is not really better. It might prevent cases of "I just want to buy one and see what I get", but it just circumvents regulation without improving the situation.

The system that Epic will be implementing is that the loot box content will refresh every day, so players won't have to buy a box just to get the new box. I'd post a link but I think linking outside articles is against forum rules.

As far as I'm aware there is no rule against posting links to other sites. People do it all the time so if there is a rule it's not very well enforced.

Hamish999 wrote: »

People keep saying about circumventing laws. There are no laws to circumvent! The contents of ZoS's Crown Crates are purely cosmetic and do not come under any gambling laws.
If it we could get some powerful weapons or armour or upgrades then that would be a different (legal) matter entirely.

The law is different in each country, but under current gambling legislation I'm aware of, particularly the USA and UK, that's irrelevant. What makes it legal without a gambling licence is that you always get something and legally we don't own anything on our accounts, including crowns, crown gems and crown store items, so you get nothing with a monetary value no matter what. Legally you're buying access to an additional service when you buy crowns, not currency or items. (Which is why they don't have to refund crown purchases.)

For the Uk (and therefore EU) that's not quite correct. Since recent changes to consumer protection laws in all EU members states, these 'items' are called 'digital content' and, even though they do not exist, are afforded the same protections as tangibles. This change was made to bring the single market up to speed with digital distribution. The reason refunds are not offered on Crown purchases is because ZOS have done their homework (although it did take some time and I forced a few refunds out of them before they realised how it works here) and state that the service starts within the 14 day cool-off. This is very specific EU terminology in their store sales contracts, because the must show compliance or they stand to lose any legal or credit card battle arising. So ZOS clearly recognise the importance of playing ball with the EU regs.

Now, I can't say how it will play out in the UK as they seem to wish to leave the protections of the EU, but as digital things are afforded the same protection status as tangibles, it's understandable why NL and Belgium have classed loot crates as gambling, and how that might be the case in all EU states because their laws are all made from the same directives.

Skwor

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NO and who cares? Last I checked Epic does not own ESO

True, but governments are continuing to crack down on loot box gambling. For instance, it is now illegal in Belgium and here in the States the FTC is beginning to investigate the practice.

ESO crates do not meet any legal definition for gambling in the US. So again who cares?

I imagine ZOS cares because the EU have started to care. The EU is more lucrative than the USA market and have sovereignty that extends into non-EU countries, in the context of, "you want to sell to our citizens, you obey our consumer laws". i.e. It was the EU who drove the Steam changes around refunds.

Yawn. Sorry but the EU drives changes for the EU not the US. If it is a big enough headache from the Nanny State EU you will just lose the game. The US market is more than sufficient to keep US servers running with a profit.
.

Sorry, but you are wrong. When selling within the EU, to an EU currency, the EU member state and eventually the EU overseeing courts have jurisdiction. No one has ever pulled a game from the EU, we are simply too rich to not want to do business with. Steam changed their entire stance on refunds due to EU pressure, for example, and there were loads of blowhards on the Steam forums saying they would pull out of the EU. It's all about numbers, and whilst the US is a nice market, it's just not that rich compared to the EU and APAC.

So yes, ZOS could keep the USA server lights on but that's actually their smallest market (out of the big three) so would be a bit of a stupid basket to put eggs into.

Since population details are not released I would like to see your sources. Making such statements as facts really need some reliable sourcing. Oh also the EU is second in GDP and the US is first. Hate to break it to you but the US is still the largest economy in the world. Your not as rich as you think you are 😉

ZOS_Mika

Since this thread has begun to derail and a good bit of this discussion isn't focused on ESO, we have decided to close it down. Thank you for your understanding.