Bleeds overperforming in pvp

Sloban

Bleeds should not ignore resistances as this makes them overperform in pvp. This also artificially makes master dual wield By far the Best in Slot for any dual wield build. There is no reason for such a mechanic to exist as it passively hardcounters most any build which relies on resists for tanking, Similar to how oblivion damage counters sorc passively by ignoring shields which are now well balanced anyway. Without this being nerfed, more and more players will just be forced to master dual wield in order to be competitive in dueling, and axe bleed will forever be OP in duels.

Kikke

Dont worry, its getting a blanket nerf next dlc.

Skander

12% nerf
that's 6 % in pvp

I don't know if it's enough.

Sloban

That nerf is a joke, and it only applies to heavy weapons bleed. The problem is that bleeds ignore resist not that they do too much base damage.

ChunkyCat

Anything that kills me is obviously over performing and needs to be nerfed.

Real talk.

NBrookus

I'd much rather bleeds effectively counter tanks while not being even stronger against non-tanky targets than a blanket nerf. If they did more damage to higher resist targets and less damage to lower resist targets it wouldn't be THE choice to fight everyone.

But yes, bleeds are nerfed next patch and now useless.

TheDarkoil

I've never once looked at how I died in PvP and thought, you know what that needs nerfing. All these nerfs to skills, sets and mechanics have destroyed any variety that could have been. Sure nerf it though as I main a mag Sorc so it can only benefit me, in a couple of years we can all just run around light attacking each other as all other skills and damage types will have been nerfed into oblivion.

Tetrafy

I hardly ever die to bleeds.

evoniee

wait until you meet dat 2k+ rending tick, make all your heal do nothing.
not mentioning axe bleed that almost every dual wield use.

Illuvatarr

Play a mag sorc. Tired of *** nerfs. Bleeds are absolutely necessary in game until the devs find a way to balance out all of the high resists. They are op but need to be due to sheer number of super tanks running around in Cyro.

Crixus8000

Tetrafy wrote: »

I hardly ever die to bleeds.

No one really dies to bleeds. They die because bleeds does so much pressure, countering their heals then they die from execute.

StarOfElyon

I just dropped dead with half life bleeding

Sloban

NBrookus wrote: »

I'd much rather bleeds effectively counter tanks while not being even stronger against non-tanky targets than a blanket nerf. If they did more damage to higher resist targets and less damage to lower resist targets it wouldn't be THE choice to fight everyone.

But yes, bleeds are nerfed next patch and now useless.

you think a 12% nerf to heavy weapons bleed will make master dual wield rending useless? okay

Sloban

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Play a mag sorc. Tired of *** nerfs. Bleeds are absolutely necessary in game until the devs find a way to balance out all of the high resists. They are op but need to be due to sheer number of super tanks running around in Cyro.

Thing is it doesnt just counter super tanks, it counters everyone. The small percentage of super tanks youre referring too are rarely affected as this is mostly a small scale/dueling probelm

NBrookus

Sloban wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

I'd much rather bleeds effectively counter tanks while not being even stronger against non-tanky targets than a blanket nerf. If they did more damage to higher resist targets and less damage to lower resist targets it wouldn't be THE choice to fight everyone.

But yes, bleeds are nerfed next patch and now useless.

you think a 12% nerf to heavy weapons bleed will make master dual wield rending useless? okay

Yes. Everyone should abandon bleed builds

Morgul667

Bleeds are fine except for masters daggers that could be tuned down

Dashmatt

Bleeds are fine. Axe bleeds are getting nerfed anyway. Start a thread about Masters DW if you want to discuss something debatably OP.

Undefwun

Upfront, I have a bleed sorc... potentially 4 bleeds (2H axe, DW Axe bleed, rending and carve) + double dot poison.

The question I ask in everyone of these threads. Why are bleeds a problem and insane burst damage is ok?

Stamblades have front loaded burst (i was dropping 11-13.5k lethal arrows yesterday with my bowblade)
Mag sorcs and magblades have delayed burst.
Stamdens, sub assault into DBoS
etc etc..

All those can put you down in a second, I have to apply the bleeds, then hope for that 16% proc chance, meanwhile I have to survive, avoid damage, try not to be CC'd, the target self healing, team mate healing, cleansing etc etc.
A single templar (or other healer with purge slotted) in a group can undo most of my damage ability with a single synergy.

You have a higher survival rate against bleeds than burst. Is it just the frustration of dying over time instead of wham bam instant death?

And bleeds in CP pvp is not that strong at all...

Anyway we'll see how she performs after U21

Vapirko

Skander wrote: »

12% nerf
that's 6 % in pvp

I don't know if it's enough.

Remains to be seen but I REALLY appreciate ZOS finally making smaller changes. Can always be nerfed more if need be.

Vapirko

Skander wrote: »

12% nerf
that's 6 % in pvp

I don't know if it's enough.

Remains to be seen but I REALLY appreciate ZOS finally making smaller changes. Can always be nerfed more if need be.

SaintSubwayy

They should just remake the Invigorating Trait again, the Reg is already a horrible Idea.

Make something that reduces bleeds, according to Armortype the Effect is changed.

Heavy Armor only get like 50 DMG mitigation fagains bleed, while medium gets 150, and Light armor 250 Bleed DMG mitigation.

Thus making the Choice between Impen or Bleed mitigation, therefore heavy armor users will probably still use Impen, because its way stronger, but lightarmor users may change 1 or 2 pieces to bleed mitigation, making them not as wounrable to bleedstacking as heavyarmor is.

Numbers just need to be tweaked to make it worth for light, semiworth for medium and worthless for heavys

Kadoin

But if not bleeds, what will I crutch on when someone clearly outplays me? Valkyn won't activate itself!

Aedrion

Skander wrote: »

12% nerf
that's 6 % in pvp

I don't know if it's enough.

Lol what? No.

Battle spirit shaves off 50% of all damage so your 10k DoT becomes 5K
But the 10K DoT is actually 8800 now so 50% of that is 4400 which is also 12% lower than 5K.

Learn math please.

olsborg

Skander wrote: »

12% nerf
that's 6 % in pvp

I don't know if it's enough.

Its not. And they introduced the new version of deadly strikes set to increase bleed dmg further. + the main issue with bleeds atm is master dualwield and rending slashes.

Morgul667

Bleed issue is masters dw
Rest is fine for me

Thanatos_inside

U can be tanky and use bleeds - profit. Bleeds op againts any class and any type of armor. ZOS should change the mechanics of bleeds and nerf master duals.

Tetrafy

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Tetrafy wrote: »

I hardly ever die to bleeds.

No one really dies to bleeds. They die because bleeds does so much pressure, countering their heals then they die from execute.

I hardly die from bleeds because unless I play a to4 and I'm solo I hardly get worked.

Tetrafy

Kadoin wrote: »

But if not bleeds, what will I crutch on when someone clearly outplays me? Valkyn won't activate itself!

Not using zaan

likecats

Undefwun wrote: »

Upfront, I have a bleed sorc... potentially 4 bleeds (2H axe, DW Axe bleed, rending and carve) + double dot poison.

The question I ask in everyone of these threads. Why are bleeds a problem and insane burst damage is ok?

Stamblades have front loaded burst (i was dropping 11-13.5k lethal arrows yesterday with my bowblade)
Mag sorcs and magblades have delayed burst.
Stamdens, sub assault into DBoS
etc etc..

All those can put you down in a second, I have to apply the bleeds, then hope for that 16% proc chance, meanwhile I have to survive, avoid damage, try not to be CC'd, the target self healing, team mate healing, cleansing etc etc.
A single templar (or other healer with purge slotted) in a group can undo most of my damage ability with a single synergy.

You have a higher survival rate against bleeds than burst. Is it just the frustration of dying over time instead of wham bam instant death?

And bleeds in CP pvp is not that strong at all...

Anyway we'll see how she performs after U21

Your argument would be stronger if you argued why DOTs are a problem and burst damage is OK. But bleed is not like other DOTs.
Bleed is problematic because bleed does not have the same counterplay as burst damage.

How can you counter burst damage?
1. Build up resistance (bleed ignores resistance)
2. Dodge roll at the right time (bleed can't be dodged)
3. Block it (bleed can't be blocked)

Sure you can argue that you can infact dodge/block the initial hit of bleed, but that is actually a bad idea. Many a times you lose way more resources blocking/dodging those attacks than you get from just eating the bleed and trying to heal over it.


Secondly, it does take some amount of skill to line up burst. There is no longer any burst build that can reliably OHK people, since like morrowind. Negate any one of these 2 or 3 lined up burst damage and the entire thing is negated.

With bleeds however, you can apply and forget for the most part. Not saying that will win you the fight, but there is no element of timing with applying bleeds. You are almost best off applying bleeds ASAP. Ofcourse running a bleed build doesn't mean that you don't have burst damage. You can use burst damage + bleed and that is likely the gist of most complaints.

Bleeds need a higher opportunity cost, like oblivion damage, or they need to be toned down. As of right now bleed is as readily available as other DOTs like poison, or disease.

Simply put, people are not frustrated by DOTs, they are frustrated by bleeds. Because there is not reliably way to counter bleeds as of right now, and bleeds are way too easily available for very little cost.