Any Race can Tank or Heal Now but Select Ones will ONLY be able to be top DPS

IronWooshu

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

VaranisArano

Isnt that more or less how its always been in ESO?

Mathematically, some racial passives lend themselves to better DPS so those races become the meta.

IronWooshu

VaranisArano wrote: »

Isnt that more or less how its always been in ESO?

Mathematically, some racial passives lend themselves to better DPS so those races become the meta.

Yes but if they want to truely do freedom they need to not make damage scale off magicka or stamina anymore and have people build around weapon or spell damage. If they reduced magicka and stamina to just resource pools it would allow any race to essentially be close to the races that have a free 258 weapon or spell damage and the game would really become just about gearing and you would really see the true freedom in races.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Moonsorrow

Also in competitive groups, Nord just became the bis tank race, because of the ultigen passive. It is not that "strong" as itself, but it is better than any other race has, means few seconds faster Warhorns. Thus Nord is now the best tank instead of Argonian because of that 1 racial passive.

So freedom was not increased on tanking also if want to be optimal. It just moved from Argonian to Nord.

More freedom would have come from stam/mag morphs of passives.

True freedom would have come from making racial passives into Birth Signs or what wanted to call them that you pick when creating the character, and make some tied to another one so could not pick all the "best ones" so picking then some bis tank/dps/sustain passive would also get you a 2nd passive that was more of flavor and niche uses. One could then make a "package" out of them to enjoy their playstyle on that character with any race and have fun in the game without the "bis this and that race or you are not welcome here" feelings.

WuffyCerulei

I’m gonna be cat and lizard, regardless.

IronWooshu

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Also in competitive groups, Nord just became the bis tank race, because of the ultigen passive. It is not that "strong" as itself, but it is better than any other race has, means few seconds faster Warhorns. Thus Nord is now the best tank instead of Argonian because of that 1 racial passive.

So freedom was not increased on tanking also if want to be optimal. It just moved from Argonian to Nord.

The trade-off is sustain, Argonians have better sustain with potion passive. Getting Warhorn a few seconds faster won't matter if the Nord tank can't sustain, as it is now, the 3 races in Argonian, Nord and Imperial each have fair trade-offs. An Imperial could build for Ultimate generation while still having more health while a Nord can go for more damage in a monster set because his passive grants him 4k in resists. BiS tanking will be relative to what your guild needs but as for DPS leaderboards they will always go with the one who can squeeze out that extra 3 to 400 in damage.

Shantu

Maybe I'm just getting burned out, but all this "balancing" is really getting depressing. Sure hope the developers are having fun.

CipherNine

There is no race diversity when it comes to tank, heal, dps and there never will be. This is just an MMO with the ES name slapped on it.

Moonsorrow

IronWooshu wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Also in competitive groups, Nord just became the bis tank race, because of the ultigen passive. It is not that "strong" as itself, but it is better than any other race has, means few seconds faster Warhorns. Thus Nord is now the best tank instead of Argonian because of that 1 racial passive.

So freedom was not increased on tanking also if want to be optimal. It just moved from Argonian to Nord.

The trade-off is sustain, Argonians have better sustain with potion passive. Getting Warhorn a few seconds faster won't matter if the Nord tank can't sustain, as it is now, the 3 races in Argonian, Nord and Imperial each have fair trade-offs. An Imperial could build for Ultimate generation while still having more health while a Nord can go for more damage in a monster set because his passive grants him 4k in resists. BiS tanking will be relative to what your guild needs but as for DPS leaderboards they will always go with the one who can squeeze out that extra 3 to 400 in damage.

One can sustain just fine with Nord, trust me.. the competitive groups will pick Nord tank even if that bonus seems small to you, for them it still outshines every other race. You would know this if you were in such a group.

AcadianPaladin

Yeah, I think that race selection should have exactly the same amount of performance impact that gender selection has. There are countless other choices to make that can and do affect performance. Let race join gender in simply being a cosmetic choice so players can pick the race they want to play instead of the one that racial bonuses tries to steer them into. I imagine Shalidor the Nordic mage would likely agree.

IronWooshu

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Yeah, I think that race selection should have exactly the same amount of performance impact that gender selection has. There are countless other choices to make that can and do affect performance. Let race join gender in simply being a cosmetic choice so players can pick the race they want to play instead of the one that racial bonuses tries to steer them into. I imagine Shalidor the Nordic mage would likely agree.

That is not at all what this thread is about, its basically saying remove the damage modifiers from the Stamina and Magikca pools and use them soely as resource pools and nothing more. That way classes would still get 258 spell or weapon damage in the passives but the gap to get the same DPS for classes who don't have damage modifiers wouldn't be as large as trying to close the gap on 258 wpn/spell damage and an extra 129 from the 2k magicka or stamina.

If they did that the skill gap would increase exponentially, do you think you could keep up or do you need your crutch race with all DPS passives to help you stay competitive?

Tetrafy

It shouldn't be so difficult to hit top tier dps. If anything the average good player without cancelling should be easily able to hit 40k with a good rotation. And then increase to say like 80k for top 1 percent. You shouldnt have to hit bis numbers and just bairly for dps why make it so difficult?

Synnastix

“Rotation” is more relevant to DPS than race and most people can’t be bothered to work on that so why stress about race?

Nyladreas

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

There will always be FOTM, or only 1 way to top DPS, regardless of everything.

Reason? People who spend more time doing math ingame than they've ever done IRL & Elitism.

In some games minor number differences between classes and races work just fine. But ESO takes "the best build" to a mind-boggling extreme.

zaria

jonswowgothackedub17_ESO wrote: »

“Rotation” is more relevant to DPS than race and most people can’t be bothered to work on that so why stress about race?

This. race is an 10% dps buff at maximum. Yes race change from Nord to Altmer and you go from 20K to 22K dps on an magic build
Rotation is that matter, as you can do +40K on the Nord mage.

Fun fact is that you probably do more dps on an Altmer stamina warden than magic one.

John_Falstaff

zaria wrote: »

jonswowgothackedub17_ESO wrote: »

“Rotation” is more relevant to DPS than race and most people can’t be bothered to work on that so why stress about race?

This. race is an 10% dps buff at maximum. Yes race change from Nord to Altmer and you go from 20K to 22K dps on an magic build
Rotation is that matter, as you can do +40K on the Nord mage.

Fun fact is that you probably do more dps on an Altmer stamina warden than magic one.

10% is a lot of difference, especially multiplied by 8 in trial team. When you want to run for a score, it comes up. When you're learning new content and want to have extra damage to trade for survivability (and still burn things reasonably fast), it comes up. When you deal with guilds that want maximum performance (say what you want about it, but that's how things are in the game), it comes up. Wherever you go, you want to have an edge.

So yes. People who say "X is enough to do all content in the game, why bother having more" likely have never tried to tackle harder content. Damage is a currency that can be traded for comfort in game, either directly by having shorter, less strenuous fights, or indirectly by having a safety layer of damage that can be sacrificed for tankiness (yes, I know you demigods do all content without breaking sweat using green max stat food, but to practice vet Blackrose I went in with 20k health and heavy investments in sustain, and I had plenty of extra damage to trade for that). Extra damage matters.

As for stamina vs. magick - it's risk vs. reward, but even so, there was a heavy imbalance in that regard too.

VaranisArano

Nyladreas wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

There will always be FOTM, or only 1 way to top DPS, regardless of everything.

Reason? People who spend more time doing math ingame than they've ever done IRL & Elitism.

In some games minor number differences between classes and races work just fine. But ESO takes "the best build" to a mind-boggling extreme.

LOL, if only our Math teachers could see us now.

"Students, I know this is boring, but you'll use it later in real life to calculate the BIS meta for your video game!"

wsmith97ub17_ESO

oh my, first world problems...

Kadoin

Nyladreas wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

There will always be FOTM, or only 1 way to top DPS, regardless of everything.

Reason? People who spend more time doing math ingame than they've ever done IRL & Elitism.

In some games minor number differences between classes and races work just fine. But ESO takes "the best build" to a mind-boggling extreme.

Don't worry, he is selectively reading what he wants so he can complain about it. That is also something that will always exist in games and balancing.

TBois

Just come pvp where there is much greater racial and build diversity

Wifeaggro13

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

Because the cole core design philosphy was half baked. they based the whole game around meta dps. they diluted the tank and healing roles to be insignificant and almost uneeded. or worse its almost discouraged when your upper echelion of playing skill. because three dps and a hybrid heal can do the 4 man content faster and better for the most part.this game is missing the MMO part by trying to hard to be a single player rpg

TBois

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

Because the cole core design philosphy was half baked. they based the whole game around meta dps. they diluted the tank and healing roles to be insignificant and almost uneeded. or worse its almost discouraged when your upper echelion of playing skill. because three dps and a hybrid heal can do the 4 man content faster and better for the most part.this game is missing the MMO part by trying to hard to be a single player rpg

The game was designed with soft caps that gave diminishing returns after stacking one stat a bunch. I didn't pve much then, but in pvp it kept the radials well balanced. For example, bosmers were chosen for mag toons so that you got extra regen to break free and dodge.

Odnoc

If you want perfect balance, MMORPG is not for you, 99.9% of MMORPG's aren't balanced perfectly, and never will be. FPS are the way to go. Just saying.

Wifeaggro13

TBois wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

Because the cole core design philosphy was half baked. they based the whole game around meta dps. they diluted the tank and healing roles to be insignificant and almost uneeded. or worse its almost discouraged when your upper echelion of playing skill. because three dps and a hybrid heal can do the 4 man content faster and better for the most part.this game is missing the MMO part by trying to hard to be a single player rpg

The game was designed with soft caps that gave diminishing returns after stacking one stat a bunch. I didn't pve much then, but in pvp it kept the radials well balanced. For example, bosmers were chosen for mag toons so that you got extra regen to break free and dodge.

in pve the game played much different with vr and pre tam one. it was a mmo , no it leaves both the PVP and MMO PVE,r with much to be desired both communities are disenfranchised while ZOS chases the easy dollar.. its basically just a single player rpg now with multi player option.

TBois

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With all points into health and Undaunted Mettle passive every race will be at the same health pool but the only difference will be the races that get flat values for health so Imperial will have 2k more health than races with no health and a Nord will have 1k less than an Imperial and a Khajiit will have 250 less than a Nord.

However the races that have no extra damage modifiers will never be tops in DPS because their passives wont be able to compete with the races that get a free 250 weapon or spell damage or crit.

All in all Breton, Imperial, Argonian and Nord get pigeonholed into certain roles and really any race can heal and tank if geared properly because we have access to the same CP passives as every race that makes them tanky or increases healing.

It's not a huge deal but it doesn't allow every race to be equal when the difference in health is very neglibile but even a 2k difference in stamina and magicka is a 129 difference in damage.

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

Because the cole core design philosphy was half baked. they based the whole game around meta dps. they diluted the tank and healing roles to be insignificant and almost uneeded. or worse its almost discouraged when your upper echelion of playing skill. because three dps and a hybrid heal can do the 4 man content faster and better for the most part.this game is missing the MMO part by trying to hard to be a single player rpg

The game was designed with soft caps that gave diminishing returns after stacking one stat a bunch. I didn't pve much then, but in pvp it kept the radials well balanced. For example, bosmers were chosen for mag toons so that you got extra regen to break free and dodge.

in pve the game played much different with vr and pre tam one. it was a mmo , no it leaves both the PVP and MMO PVE,r with much to be desired both communities are disenfranchised while ZOS chases the easy dollar.. its basically just a single player rpg now with multi player option.

I would agree with this to some extent, but with the Murkmire patch I'm pretty happy with pvp build diversity aside from racial passives. At the high end, large grp level like 8+ healers and support roles are definitely needed. It is also a far crazy from something like bdo where everyone seems to kinda handle themselves. It is sad to see heal/tank plus 3 dps be the top comp for hard 4 man content though.

Matthros

IronWooshu wrote: »

Unless you have plans to make damage not scale off Magicka or Stamina anymore and make them just resource pools certain classes will never be able to reach the damage as others. This wouldn't be such a problem if more armor was BiS but end game everyone wears the same damn gear so even as a Nord if I geared in pure medium armor and went with all increase damage enchants I still would be behind the classes who are naturally DPS.

I have a feeling they may be doing this in the future.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453931/future-plan-to-remove-max-resources-from-damage-calculations#latest

Facefister

I am wondering why the overwhelming majority always gives the "competetive" scene as an example for balancing while the said majority isn't even remotely able to play at that level? The differences (mag/stam) among races is <2% and yet people cling to that min-maxed meta composition. Some of the best tanks is a cat, noone gives him as an example.

TBois

Facefister wrote: »

I am wondering why the overwhelming majority always gives the "competetive" scene as an example for balancing while the said majority isn't even remotely able to play at that level? The differences (mag/stam) among races is <2% and yet people cling to that min-maxed meta composition. Some of the best tanks is a cat, noone gives him as an example.

Probably because the passive matter very little to the nonconpetitive scene; whereas, the competitive scene cares a whole lot.

Facefister

Aha the competetive scene. Any competetive player will "brute-force" this <2% difference away by sheer skill and game sense.

IronWooshu

Facefister wrote: »

I am wondering why the overwhelming majority always gives the "competetive" scene as an example for balancing while the said majority isn't even remotely able to play at that level? The differences (mag/stam) among races is <2% and yet people cling to that min-maxed meta composition. Some of the best tanks is a cat, noone gives him as an example.

You just said it in your post, any race can tank or heal because passives dont matter to those roles but it does to DPS because it accounts for every little min/max possible and the only thing dividing classes in damage numbers come down to racials which certain races cant access that extra 1k or 2k stam/mag pool and an extra 258 weapon damage on top of that.

Taleof2Cities

IronWooshu wrote: »

You just said it in your post, any race can tank or heal because passives dont matter to those roles but it does to DPS because it accounts for every little min/max possible and the only thing dividing classes in damage numbers come down to racials which certain races cant access that extra 1k or 2k stam/mag pool and an extra 258 weapon damage on top of that.

I think it’s fine that some races are naturally proficient at DPS and others are not. It’s too early to post “sky is falling” threads like this ... since no one has had a chance to test anything in PTS.

The devs said it best in the racial balancing thread:

“Every race will now have a different way to engage with the game. This is either a new small but unique bonus, or an improvement to their core passive. Note that the smaller bonuses are not meant to work with every build, since these are meant to be more for flavor.”