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Redguard vs live.
MashmalloMan
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This is a direct comparison to LIVE REDGUARD and a pve DD perspective. Woodelf has it's own advantage of constant passive regen and utility passives. They both have their uses. Skip to the bottom to see how I compare their sustain.
If you're a class that uses a weapon skill line ability as your spammable (Most commonly bow/bow snipe pve builds, stam sorcs or stam dk), RG looks like it comes on top for sustain in COMBAT and by effect more dps due to how much utility that new 8% cost reduction would see use from these builds.
The adrenaline rush passive should work for bow/bow builds. Before recent nerfs bow/bow utilized this passive through relequen and poison enchants when counting as melee dmg, hopefully you didn't race change before if RG's new passives go live. (Light attacks should count as direct dmg, if your weaving that should be high uptime)
Redguard passives: (As of Jan 18 2019)
792 -> 950 stamina return on melee direct dmg every 5 seconds. [190 sta/1sec]
10% -> 2k stamina. (Effected by multipliers)
9% sta reg -> Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.
MAX STA VS LIVE
SUSTAIN VS LIVE
Comparing Woodelf to RG
TLDR: RG for my setup will have up to 146 sta/sec more vs live.
Edited by MashmalloMan on January 19, 2019 12:25PM If you're a class that uses a weapon skill line ability as your spammable (Most commonly bow/bow snipe pve builds, stam sorcs or stam dk), RG looks like it comes on top for sustain in COMBAT and by effect more dps due to how much utility that new 8% cost reduction would see use from these builds.
The adrenaline rush passive should work for bow/bow builds. Before recent nerfs bow/bow utilized this passive through relequen and poison enchants when counting as melee dmg, hopefully you didn't race change before if RG's new passives go live. (Light attacks should count as direct dmg, if your weaving that should be high uptime)
Redguard passives: (As of Jan 18 2019)
792 -> 950 stamina return on melee direct dmg every 5 seconds. [190 sta/1sec]
10% -> 2k stamina. (Effected by multipliers)
9% sta reg -> Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.
MAX STA VS LIVE
Stam Sorc has +8% max stam so 2k stam is slightly more rewarding than other stam classes.
My max stamina on live is 31177 using imperfect relequen, dubious, helm with tri glygh and 6/1 setup. 1 robust jewelry.
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%
My max stamina lowers to 28621 without the 10% from the OG 31117
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8
So a slight increase of 191.8 stamina is abysmal at best and I'm only at 30k stamina or so. This isn't a nerf, just slightly better, if your build has closer to 35k+ stamina, you will probably start to break even, not many builds have that much stamina so this a small buff.
This shows me that robust jewelry is slightly less valuable than before with less multipliers, easier decision to squeeze dps out of infused wpd or bloodthirsty than before.
My max stamina on live is 31177 using imperfect relequen, dubious, helm with tri glygh and 6/1 setup. 1 robust jewelry.
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%
My max stamina lowers to 28621 without the 10% from the OG 31117
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8
So a slight increase of 191.8 stamina is abysmal at best and I'm only at 30k stamina or so. This isn't a nerf, just slightly better, if your build has closer to 35k+ stamina, you will probably start to break even, not many builds have that much stamina so this a small buff.
This shows me that robust jewelry is slightly less valuable than before with less multipliers, easier decision to squeeze dps out of infused wpd or bloodthirsty than before.
SUSTAIN VS LIVE
Using the current Breton passive, we can assume the calculation for a Redguard's 8% cost reduction on weapon skills is additive to all other cost reduction passives like how it is on live.
(Not sure about sets, left out of this analysis)
5/4% (Sorc or Templar passive) + 14% (7 Medium) + 8% (RG Racial Passive) + 15% (Weapon Skill Line Passive) = 42%
Base costs with 0 passives vs 36% (without RG) vs 42% cost reduction (with RG)
Endless Hail: 3511 --- 2317 --- 2036
Poison Injection: 2430 --- 1604 --- 1409
Lethal Arrow: 3240 --- 2138 --- 1879
Acid Spray: 4050 --- 2673 --- 2349
Magnum Shot: 2970 --- 1960 --- 1723
Rapid Strikes: 2700 --- 1782 --- 1566
Rending: 2160 --- 1426 --- 1253
Steel Tornado: 3780 --- 2495 --- 2192
Deadly Cloak: 3780 --- 2495 --- 2192
Shrouded Daggers: 2970 --- 1960 --- 1723
Crushing Weapon: 2715 --- 1792 (No benefit from the 8%)
So that's good news for anyone who didn't like relying on CW for sustain, Shrouded Dagger has cleave, little less dmg, but costs a tiny bit less too..
[Stam sorc DW/BOW - 28% (7 MED) + 20% (Sorc Passive) + 10% (Vampire) + 20% (Major Endurance) + 15% cp = 93%]
7 Medium, AY + Relequen + Stormfist, dubious cameron throne.
Live Sta Regen = 1943
Removing the 9% RG passive = 1856
Thats a loss of 87 sta reg or 43.5/sec.
A lot of people don't even use dubious or stormfist so this 9% is even more useless to them with a lower base regen..always been a weak passive.
Now the 8% cost reduction. Using a 12s static rotation as an example: Endless Hail - Razor Caltops - PI - Rending - Hurricane - Rearming Trap - 5x Shrouded Daggers.
The 8% will save -1250 stamina for Shrouded daggers and -649 stamina from PI/Endless/Rending, add +158 stamina return every 5 seconds from the extra adrenaline rush return vs live.
8% Cost reduction:
-1250 + -649 = -1899
-1899/12 = -158.25/1 sec
Adrenaline Rush:
+158/5 = 31.6/1 sec
Effective sustain per sec:
31.6 + 158.25 = 189.85
I lose +43.5 sta/sec passively for +189.85 sta/sec in combat. Net gain vs live is 146.35 stam/sec. This is a Major Sustain Buff.
(Not sure about sets, left out of this analysis)
5/4% (Sorc or Templar passive) + 14% (7 Medium) + 8% (RG Racial Passive) + 15% (Weapon Skill Line Passive) = 42%
Base costs with 0 passives vs 36% (without RG) vs 42% cost reduction (with RG)
Endless Hail: 3511 --- 2317 --- 2036
Poison Injection: 2430 --- 1604 --- 1409
Lethal Arrow: 3240 --- 2138 --- 1879
Acid Spray: 4050 --- 2673 --- 2349
Magnum Shot: 2970 --- 1960 --- 1723
Rapid Strikes: 2700 --- 1782 --- 1566
Rending: 2160 --- 1426 --- 1253
Steel Tornado: 3780 --- 2495 --- 2192
Deadly Cloak: 3780 --- 2495 --- 2192
Shrouded Daggers: 2970 --- 1960 --- 1723
Crushing Weapon: 2715 --- 1792 (No benefit from the 8%)
So that's good news for anyone who didn't like relying on CW for sustain, Shrouded Dagger has cleave, little less dmg, but costs a tiny bit less too..
[Stam sorc DW/BOW - 28% (7 MED) + 20% (Sorc Passive) + 10% (Vampire) + 20% (Major Endurance) + 15% cp = 93%]
7 Medium, AY + Relequen + Stormfist, dubious cameron throne.
Live Sta Regen = 1943
Removing the 9% RG passive = 1856
Thats a loss of 87 sta reg or 43.5/sec.
A lot of people don't even use dubious or stormfist so this 9% is even more useless to them with a lower base regen..always been a weak passive.
Now the 8% cost reduction. Using a 12s static rotation as an example: Endless Hail - Razor Caltops - PI - Rending - Hurricane - Rearming Trap - 5x Shrouded Daggers.
The 8% will save -1250 stamina for Shrouded daggers and -649 stamina from PI/Endless/Rending, add +158 stamina return every 5 seconds from the extra adrenaline rush return vs live.
8% Cost reduction:
-1250 + -649 = -1899
-1899/12 = -158.25/1 sec
Adrenaline Rush:
+158/5 = 31.6/1 sec
Effective sustain per sec:
31.6 + 158.25 = 189.85
I lose +43.5 sta/sec passively for +189.85 sta/sec in combat. Net gain vs live is 146.35 stam/sec. This is a Major Sustain Buff.
Comparing Woodelf to RG
This is in a perfect scenario, with my rotation from above and IN COMBAT
Redguard
Conditioning: +2k stam - same as Woodelf.
Adrenaline Rush: +190 sta/sec.
Martial Training: 8% cost reduction on weapon skills equates to 190 sta/sec for my example above ^. (Different builds get different mileage here)
So in combat, that's 380 sta/sec in my ideal scenario.
Woodelf
Resist Affliction: + +2k stam - same as RG.
Y’ffre’s Endurance: +258 sta reg (Effected by multipliers)
Utility: Stealth Detect Radius + 3m / +20% movement speed after roll dodge for 3s / Poison Resistance +2310 / Immune to poison status effect
Stam Regen
[28% (7 MED) + 20% (Sorc Passive) + 10% (Vampire) + 20% (Major Endurance) + 15% cp = 93%]
258 x 1.93 = 498 or 249 sta/sec.
(RG's sustain) 380 - (WE's sustain) 249 = 131
RG gets +131 more sta/sec vs Woodelf in combat, when a RG is outside of combat, the Woodelf is gaining +249 sta/sec where the RG get's nothing.
Redguard
Conditioning: +2k stam - same as Woodelf.
Adrenaline Rush: +190 sta/sec.
Martial Training: 8% cost reduction on weapon skills equates to 190 sta/sec for my example above ^. (Different builds get different mileage here)
So in combat, that's 380 sta/sec in my ideal scenario.
Woodelf
Resist Affliction: + +2k stam - same as RG.
Y’ffre’s Endurance: +258 sta reg (Effected by multipliers)
Utility: Stealth Detect Radius + 3m / +20% movement speed after roll dodge for 3s / Poison Resistance +2310 / Immune to poison status effect
Stam Regen
[28% (7 MED) + 20% (Sorc Passive) + 10% (Vampire) + 20% (Major Endurance) + 15% cp = 93%]
258 x 1.93 = 498 or 249 sta/sec.
(RG's sustain) 380 - (WE's sustain) 249 = 131
RG gets +131 more sta/sec vs Woodelf in combat, when a RG is outside of combat, the Woodelf is gaining +249 sta/sec where the RG get's nothing.
- I feel this is balanced VERY well.
- Woodelf get's extra utility in their other passives where RG gets nothing but better sustain - they have the same stam.
- RG is more of a melee race therefore sta reg is less useful when you need to sprint/block.
- Woodelf plays to it's strength as a bow user by being able to stay at range and passively regen, less sprinting/blocking so regen is more valuable.
- If you sit in front of a test dummy: RG will win, period. They do not have the same sustain, but that's FINE.
TLDR: RG for my setup will have up to 146 sta/sec more vs live.
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 19, 2019 2:17PM1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.
Yeah, exactly. The sustain RG provides for any build using weapon abilities is very good though.
As a stam sorc I needed to use dubious and stormfist to sustain, with this change I can possibly move back to bi-stat food. Dubious effectively makes me lose 4k stamina because I need to enchant gear with HP to hit something I'm happy with.
Any class with its own spammable could switch if they wanted more like you said.
The numbers for some races need to be buffed a little, but they're taking the right direction and I'm excited.Edited by MashmalloMan on January 19, 2019 2:23PM0 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The wording suggests it may also reduce ult costs, since it doesn't strictly mention stam cost.
That could further contribute to more DPS via more frequent Ballistas, on classes that slot it.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep in mind that this is the best case sincerio for redguard vs bosmer as stam sorc uses the most weapon skills. The other 4 classes have their own class spammables (is venom claw really a spammable? According to recent tests it is *shrugs*) and therefore less weapon skills, especially on nb.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.
Yeah, exactly. The sustain RG provides for any build using weapon abilities is very good though.
As a stam sorc I needed to use dubious and stormfist to sustain, with this change I can possibly move back to bi-stat food. Dubious effectively makes me lose 4k stamina because I need to enchant gear with HP to hit something I'm happy with.
Any class with its own spammable could switch if they wanted more like you said.
The numbers for some races need to be buffed a little, but they're taking the right direction and I'm excited.
My concern is that switching to Orc from Redguard may provide higher dps increase than remaining Redguard and switchin Artaeum Broth to bi-stat.Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 19, 2019 2:50PM0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.
Yeah, exactly. The sustain RG provides for any build using weapon abilities is very good though.
As a stam sorc I needed to use dubious and stormfist to sustain, with this change I can possibly move back to bi-stat food. Dubious effectively makes me lose 4k stamina because I need to enchant gear with HP to hit something I'm happy with.
Any class with its own spammable could switch if they wanted more like you said.
The numbers for some races need to be buffed a little, but they're taking the right direction and I'm excited.
My concern is that switching to Orc from Redguard may provide higher dps increase than remaining Redguard and switchin Artaeum Broth to bi-stat.
I'd say mission accomplished by ZOS. There is now more than 1 clear choice.
I imagine for my case, they would be neck and neck, for any class that can handle sustain without RG, then Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit are going to be better.
Templar and NB lean towards Khajiit due to crit dmg passive.
If you need sustain, but have a class spammable Woodelf looks very apealing.
No class spammable, need sustain, RG.
I'll need to wait till PTS next week to test Orc vs RG, I almost hope Orc comes on top, they have many useful passives that I would love to use as a stam sorc in pve. I already use them for pvp.1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The wording suggests it may also reduce ult costs, since it doesn't strictly mention stam cost.
That could further contribute to more DPS via more frequent Ballistas, on classes that slot it.
I doubt it, but we will have to see.Keep in mind that this is the best case sincerio for redguard vs bosmer as stam sorc uses the most weapon skills. The other 4 classes have their own class spammables (is venom claw really a spammable? According to recent tests it is *shrugs*) and therefore less weapon skills, especially on nb.
Stam sorc can also switch rending slashes in as a cheap spammable and instead use deadly cloak for more mitigation and aoe, this saves on stamina drain while providing about the same single target dps. The bleed dot hits after 1 second, but weaving is about 1.1 seconds working the same way venomous claw does for stam dks. I just like the cleave dmg shrouded daggers provides.
Using rending as a spammable in a static rotation like this -> Endless Hail -> Razor Caltrops -> PI - Hurricane -> Deadly Cloak -> Rending Slashes x 5.
VS my shrouded daggers example and the new RG passive:
(Shrouded Daggers) 1723 - (Rending Slashes) 1253 = 470
470 * 5 = 2350
Using deadly cloak in place of Rending Slashes:
(Rending Slahes) 1253 - (Deadly Cloak) 2192 = -939
2350 - 939 = 1421
This doesn't take in to account a dynamic rotation, this includes overcasting hurricane and deadly cloak and you still save 1421 stamina per rotation. If you go any other race like Orc and use this setup, you will save even more stamina drain.
I'd imagine you can sustain that rotation on an stam sorc orc, getting more dps than a RG with bi-stat food.
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Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.
Uhh... Khajiit?
Khajiit will be very viable and maybe the best in some scenarios. Especially Stamblade.1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Well, as of new update (if it goes live in announced state) it will be choice for end-game PvE stamDPS between three: Reguard (out of the three: max sustain, least dmg), Dunmer (max dmg, least sustain), Orc (something between the two).
Speaking only from numbers, Switching to Orc or Dunmer from Redguard is going to provide somewhat significant DPS increase (Weapon damage modifiers are much higher than that of stamina, especially after -10% Reguard max stam).
My guess is that stamblade and stamwarden will switch to Orcs (or possibly Dunmers) while others will remain Redguard.
What I wanted to say, Redguards aren't a no-brainer choice anymore.
Uhh... Khajiit?
Khajiit will be very viable and maybe the best in some scenarios. Especially Stamblade.
Everyone always forgets the kitties.
1