CC in pvp (also bow knockback)

Tlania

first please fix the bow knockback, the fact I can take a stun and lose 3/4 of my health before I can break it is silly, leaves no counter play. second also could CCs have a cost increase at the moment range CC is been used as a new spammable there is no thought to it, just spam that CC for me a CC should be a tactical use, not a ability that hits hard and CC, pretty sure mag warden lost their stun because ZOS didn't want high damage abilities to stun, When your fighting vs a group all it is, snares and CC spam. please look into making CC a conscious use ability not a spammable. BTW this is mainly aimed at PC EU no CP. that's my whinge over @ZOS_BrianWheeler . thought for you new team maybe.

Nerftheforums

Are you seriously comparing the draining shot damage to the one of deep fissure and frag?
Not sure if noob or trolling

Checkmath

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the draining shot damage to the one of deep fissure and frag?
Not sure if noob or trolling

He is at least right, that a cc skill should not be used as spammable. Similar rule should count for snares.
Currently most cc abilities do some damage, which is not negligible at all, especially when outnumbered. Same gioes for snares, where the snare is tied to common skills and are used frequently. Both mechanics, cc and snare, should not be present together with damage as it is now. Rather it would make sense, if cc and snares are kind of spells similar to elemental drain, which gives a temporary advantage, but does not do damage.

The current mechanics of cc's and snares work in favor for the bigger number of players. When you play solo, you are really quick outnumbered and face situations, where single enemies use cc or snare abilities exclusively, but no other skills.
It leads to situations, where one group member only casts skills like magnum shot to cc the enemy on cooldown, meanwhile another enemy may only cast abilities with snares or roots. Meanwhile the other enemies solely focus on damage.

This approach would be fair, if both snares and cc abilities would not deal damage, but the current situation encourages the spammed use of snares and cc's and even rewards them, even tough both mechanics are meant to be used only from time to time to get a situational advantage.

Royaji

Checkmath wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the draining shot damage to the one of deep fissure and frag?
Not sure if noob or trolling

He is at least right, that a cc skill should not be used as spammable. Similar rule should count for snares.
Currently most cc abilities do some damage, which is not negligible at all, especially when outnumbered. Same gioes for snares, where the snare is tied to common skills and are used frequently. Both mechanics, cc and snare, should not be present together with damage as it is now. Rather it would make sense, if cc and snares are kind of spells similar to elemental drain, which gives a temporary advantage, but does not do damage.

The current mechanics of cc's and snares work in favor for the bigger number of players. When you play solo, you are really quick outnumbered and face situations, where single enemies use cc or snare abilities exclusively, but no other skills.
It leads to situations, where one group member only casts skills like magnum shot to cc the enemy on cooldown, meanwhile another enemy may only cast abilities with snares or roots. Meanwhile the other enemies solely focus on damage.

This approach would be fair, if both snares and cc abilities would not deal damage, but the current situation encourages the spammed use of snares and cc's and even rewards them, even tough both mechanics are meant to be used only from time to time to get a situational advantage.

A good point but you can't really have abilities that only do one thing in a game with only 10 skill slots. Take away all damage from CC and debuff abilites and your average PvP build will end up with 2-3 skills that can actually do damage.

TheYKcid

@Checkmath In the case of Draining Shot specifically, the issue people have is NOT with the damage tooltip—rather it's the multiple bugs associated with the skill.

First and foremost is that Draining CANNOT be CC-broken during the knockback. This is completely unlike ANY other stun/knockback in the game, which all reset your GCD allowing you to break immediately (test this with Flame Reach, for example—you can break the instant the knockback begins).

At best, this means victims are stunlocked for at least 1 second by the ability. At worst, you can get knocked down a terrain gradient—meaning you have further to travel—and this results in COMPLETE lockout for a 2s+ duration in the worst cases, literally an order of magnitude more punishing than other properly-behaving CCs.

And no, contrary to what some (ab)users of the ability may claim, this behaviour is irrespective of lag. It is 100%, easily reproducible in lag-free conditions. If any reps on PCNA would like a demonstration I'd be happy to oblige.

While the above poses the biggest issue, there are various other bugs with the skill.

It frequently applies the knockback without granting the CC state afterwards, making the target unable to break and therefore unable to receive CC immunity—leaving them liable to getting repeatedly CC'd immediately after the Draining. This happens when the user is interrupted before the shot impacts, and is also easily reproducible.

This can also happen when LOS between caster and target is broken, though I'm not entirely certain how it is replicated despite observing it occasionally. @Thogard may know more.

Under laggy conditions, a separate issue emerges in which there is a significant delay between the completion of the knockback and the application of the CC state—leaving the victim crouched on the ground, disabled but unable to break for the several seconds before the proper CC is applied. This is not an issue specific to Draining, but shared with other abilities that force your character to endure a short animation before CC is applied—eg. Time Stop, Fossilize, Rune Cage. Draining is simply the most abused because of how rewarding and easy it is to mindlessly spam (as you covered).

These bugs represent significant problems with the combat system that many players are all too happy to abuse—some unintentionally, but others very deliberately because of how well-known it is among the playerbase.

Yet after countless threads and posts raising the issue, we still haven't received so much as an acknowledgement, much less an ETA on a fix. Myself and many others would gladly appreciate if the reps could push this through to the devs.

Nerftheforums

Imagine removing the stun from dizzy, for example, it would kill an already suffering playstyle. The same can be said for the stun on reach. Similarly, a snare removal on jabs would put many templars is a bad position. Having a cc tied to a spammable is not always a positive thing, as sometimes it can *** up your combo or provide an undesired cc immunity for which your team mates will get angry. The issue with draining shot's stun imo is that it is buggy as hell, sometimes lasting up to 4s. THAT is wrong.

Rikumaru

Draining CC needs to be breakable instantly, everytime I get CCed by this ability it takes 1-3 seconds to break free from this ability which is kind of insane.

NBrookus

Checkmath wrote: »

This approach would be fair, if both snares and cc abilities would not deal damage, but the current situation encourages the spammed use of snares and cc's and even rewards them, even tough both mechanics are meant to be used only from time to time to get a situational advantage.

Draining Shot
Destructive Touch
Unrelenting Grip
Javelin (less common)

^All CCs which are currently used as spammables. Unrelenting Grip has no cost on a CC immune target yet still grants expedition. Yet CCs like Eclipse and Fossilize cannot even be cast on a CC immune target.

There needs to be some cleanup here and consistent behavior. No CC should reward the caster for spamming it in lieu of using an appropriate damage-focused ability. In the case of the Bow line, it doesn't have a true spammable and while this potentially makes for more dynamic play, in reality most bow users don't do this and spam one or two abilities.

Spammable snares like Hidden Blade are also problematic, but a different topic.

Kadoin

Silver leash + draining shot them when they are coming to you. You win.

heavier

Tlania wrote: »

first please fix the bow knockback, the fact I can take a stun and lose 3/4 of my health before I can break it is silly, leaves no counter play. second also could CCs have a cost increase at the moment range CC is been used as a new spammable there is no thought to it, just spam that CC for me a CC should be a tactical use, not a ability that hits hard and CC, pretty sure mag warden lost their stun because ZOS didn't want high damage abilities to stun, When your fighting vs a group all it is, snares and CC spam. please look into making CC a conscious use ability not a spammable. BTW this is mainly aimed at PC EU no CP. that's my whinge over @ZOS_BrianWheeler . thought for you new team maybe.

we need to remove bow from meta while they work on deving action style combat system

heavier

Nerftheforums wrote: »

combo

*triggering*

Nutshotz

Just waiting for the bowtards to come on this post and say stop asking to nerf our playstyle.

evoniee

im *** hate a *** destruction touch spammer. also reverb bash cause it give so much for little effort.

evoniee

also all cc should be usable when the target have cc immune. make it so they can miss calculate the cc immune and waste their resorces

NBrookus

evoniee wrote: »

also all cc should be usable when the target have cc immune. make it so they can miss calculate the cc immune and waste their resorces

It used to be like that. Then they raised the floor, but only for some things.

CatchMeTrolling

The way draining shot ccs need to be worked, it’s known to stun lock you like javelin and fear. Clench also needs to be reworked, it shouldn’t be a spammable

Gilvoth

.

TheYKcid

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

Just waiting for the bowtards to come on this post and say stop asking to nerf our playstyle.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

the same thing is happening to ALL the CC's
and has been since beta 2013.

jediodyn_ESO

Bow needs an overhaul so that players can choose to play an archer both in PvP or PvE and compete with spellslingers. Real, fast damage that can be combined together the same way other casters combo staff skills.

Draining shot needs a simple overhaul to make more like (but not exactly like) reach and snipe needs an overhaul to make it a spammable that can kill players without the buggy lag problems taking well geared Heath bars from 100-0 instantly.

DivineFirstYOLO

stop trying to destroy snipe draining shot
stop trying to destroy our ranged playstyle every single day making request threads to destroy archer playstyle.
nothing wrong with what we have, its been here since 5+ years.
this is really childish and selfish.

Flame_of_Hades

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Bow needs an overhaul so that players can choose to play an archer both in PvP or PvE and compete with spellslingers. Real, fast damage that can be combined together the same way other casters combo staff skills.

Draining shot needs a simple overhaul to make more like (but not exactly like) reach and snipe needs an overhaul to make it a spammable that can kill players without the buggy lag problems taking well geared Heath bars from 100-0 instantly.

No. No. No. No. And this is coming from someone who normally has wings. No. The reason you see staff users combing skills is because they are using class spells, not all staff spells. Stamina classes as a whole are more generally geared toward melee combat. Take surprise attack, for example, or jabs from a stamplar. Both class abilites for stamina, that are melee range. Shalks is not really melee range, but that's a whole different problem with the warden p2w class...

On the other hand, magicka classes, besides mag dk, are more generally geared for ranged combat with things such as vampires bane, swallow soul, and frags.

Stamina has 4 different weapon choices, magicka really only has 2-3 depending on if you count sword and shield as viable for magicka.

JobooAGS

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Bow needs an overhaul so that players can choose to play an archer both in PvP or PvE and compete with spellslingers. Real, fast damage that can be combined together the same way other casters combo staff skills.

Draining shot needs a simple overhaul to make more like (but not exactly like) reach and snipe needs an overhaul to make it a spammable that can kill players without the buggy lag problems taking well geared Heath bars from 100-0 instantly.

No. No. No. No. And this is coming from someone who normally has wings. No. The reason you see staff users combing skills is because they are using class spells, not all staff spells. Stamina classes as a whole are more generally geared toward melee combat. Take surprise attack, for example, or jabs from a stamplar. Both class abilites for stamina, that are melee range. Shalks is not really melee range, but that's a whole different problem with the warden p2w class...

On the other hand, magicka classes, besides mag dk, are more generally geared for ranged combat with things such as vampires bane, swallow soul, and frags.

Stamina has 4 different weapon choices, magicka really only has 2-3 depending on if you count sword and shield as viable for magicka.

You can say relentless focus, potl, javelin, cutting dive, crushing weapon, silver shards, and shalks are all ranged skills

Trancestor

Gonna have to rework Master Destro Staffs for that, maybe give it a nice boost to it's dot instead of the direct damage.

heavier

yeas we have cc
nerf pl0x

Liww

i cant break free from immobile + stun stacks, I cant break nor roll, arrow knockback cant be broken untill you've come to a complete standstill most of the times.

idk about nerfing the skill but these seem like plain bugs to me, atleast comparing it to similar types of skills and their behavior, this doesn't seem to be intended or the design is very.. odd.

I think bow is too strong in general to not have a minimum range, I can move through players and land my lethal arrow shooting more or less backwards but dizzying misses point blank at times. but that's off-topic.

brandonv516

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The way draining shot ccs need to be worked, it’s known to stun lock you like javelin and fear. Clench also needs to be reworked, it shouldn’t be a spammable

Making the Master Destro highly potent and desirable.

StarOfElyon

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Checkmath In the case of Draining Shot specifically, the issue people have is NOT with the damage tooltip—rather it's the multiple bugs associated with the skill.

First and foremost is that Draining CANNOT be CC-broken during the knockback. This is completely unlike ANY other stun/knockback in the game, which all reset your GCD allowing you to break immediately (test this with Flame Reach, for example—you can break the instant the knockback begins).

At best, this means victims are stunlocked for at least 1 second by the ability. At worst, you can get knocked down a terrain gradient—meaning you have further to travel—and this results in COMPLETE lockout for a 2s+ duration in the worst cases, literally an order of magnitude more punishing than other properly-behaving CCs.

And no, contrary to what some (ab)users of the ability may claim, this behaviour is irrespective of lag. It is 100%, easily reproducible in lag-free conditions. If any reps on PCNA would like a demonstration I'd be happy to oblige.

While the above poses the biggest issue, there are various other bugs with the skill.

It frequently applies the knockback without granting the CC state afterwards, making the target unable to break and therefore unable to receive CC immunity—leaving them liable to getting repeatedly CC'd immediately after the Draining. This happens when the user is interrupted before the shot impacts, and is also easily reproducible.

This can also happen when LOS between caster and target is broken, though I'm not entirely certain how it is replicated despite observing it occasionally. @Thogard may know more.

Under laggy conditions, a separate issue emerges in which there is a significant delay between the completion of the knockback and the application of the CC state—leaving the victim crouched on the ground, disabled but unable to break for the several seconds before the proper CC is applied. This is not an issue specific to Draining, but shared with other abilities that force your character to endure a short animation before CC is applied—eg. Time Stop, Fossilize, Rune Cage. Draining is simply the most abused because of how rewarding and easy it is to mindlessly spam (as you covered).

These bugs represent significant problems with the combat system that many players are all too happy to abuse—some unintentionally, but others very deliberately because of how well-known it is among the playerbase.

Yet after countless threads and posts raising the issue, we still haven't received so much as an acknowledgement, much less an ETA on a fix. Myself and many others would gladly appreciate if the reps could push this through to the devs.

I got shot into lava earlier tonight and I couldn't break free from the stun. So I just burned to death.

gepe87

Why Draining Shot make you fall from Upperfloors and Reach don't? Both causes knockback.

DrFail

Reach and javelin can definitely knock you off a tower I was javelin fighting a guy over a flag because of this in bg

TheBonesXXX

Lotta QQ on this thread, "play it muh wai or I'll be making rivers of salt on the forum even tho I'm a grown pursen"

Seriously, I don't disagree that Draining shot is busted. But some people here obviously have complete melee bias.

Play the styles you complain about and be proficient before you come to the forums. Then at least try to appear a little impartial.

Situational awareness USED to be coveted in PvP. Just think about the person down the road who's going to undo that which you are petitioning for down the road.

Or how it's going to have a ripple effect and create an even more foolish meta. Thanks.

MirkoZ

Tlania wrote: »

first please fix the bow knockback, the fact I can take a stun and lose 3/4 of my health before I can break it is silly, leaves no counter play.

It is fixed on pts

Bow
Scatter Shot: Fixed an issue where the stun applied from this ability and its morphs was not able to be broken until after the knock back had completed, which made it feel less responsive to CC break.