Impact of % based max ressources vs fixed amount

CleymenZero

Hi,

I understood that based on the calculations here:
https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3ov0n4/formulas_for_max_statsweaponspell_damage_etc/&ved=2ahUKEwjD46_tzfXfAhXrw1kKHdWWCwIQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0yH9gqhn0oM2vyQtsBRifO&ampcf=1

the max stam transformation from %-based to fixed amount was, in some cases, a small nerf, in other cases, a considerable nerf.

What I did is I simply removed my skill points into the passive max stam or max magicka on 2 characters to see what the impact was (I wanted an idea of the order of magnitude).

Obviously, the greater the ressource pool of your build, the greater nerf so here are examples:
https://imgur.com/a/WnDyrhI

So the stamden lost 2739 with its smaller stam pool and the pet sorc lost 7.8k.

Now the 2k some races are going to get instead isn't going to compensate in most cases so I'm wondering if sets like Necropotence and Hulking Draugr are going to see some use. I imagine they crunched the numbers for a bit and only they have the answer but my post is only to serve the discussion around the race changes.

I am also not looking forward to that update as I will not be paying for race-change tokens and I have 14 toons so that free token is a bad joke.

CleymenZero

And yes, very few play pet sorc in endgame but they attempted to make them more useful and now we see this.

SaintSubwayy

well the more max magicka you had before this change will go live, the harder you're going to get hit.

does somehow work against certain skills, which scale with magicka only or mostly.
Backlash and Radiant oppression come to mind.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You are using a source of information from 2015, so your information is way off. Try using this build site, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor then get back to us.

Vapirko

It’s all conjecture until PTS goesup

f047ys3v3n

It is basically a nerf, and it does hit pet sorcs the hardest.

Overall, some of the changes look good and some bad when it comes to overall race balance. My most important toons were net nerfed as I do altmer mag sorc (not pet though.) Given that this build is not considered BIS for anything right now I am a little surprised I got the D.

CleymenZero

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You are using a source of information from 2015, so your information is way off. Try using this build site, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor then get back to us.

Buddy, wtv the calculations were back then and wtv they are now, the pictures were from this week. I just removed skill points in the passive category. So the equations are wrong but I didn't do the calculations myself, the game applied them.

The conclusion still stands and unless they don't change anything other than racial passives, it's obvious what is going to happen. Like I said I wanted to get an order of magnitude.

CleymenZero

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

You are using a source of information from 2015, so your information is way off. Try using this build site, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor then get back to us.

But thank you for the information.

Ajax_22

Did you calculate all the other % stat buffs increases you get from places like undaunted and other passives? Your "test" is nowhere close to accurate.

MashmalloMan

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

Stx

The racial changes will end up being a buff in overall stats for everyone except players who were stacking one stat as high as it could go. I think it's fine and I like the changes. Remember that the stats you get from racials will now also scale with other % boosts like champ points, undaunted, etc.

CleymenZero

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Did you calculate all the other % stat buffs increases you get from places like undaunted and other passives? Your "test" is nowhere close to accurate.

Losing 2700+ stam on a 3 bloodthirsty build is not going to be compensated by a flat bonus plus passives. I HOPE I'M WRONG (just to make it obvious). To account for that, you'd need passives on a stam build that would give you more that what can be had as passives go for a stam build.

For bis stam build, you currently wear 7 medium, now the trend may change with changes on racial passives but it remains that for stam, even if the impact is low, it is still a slight nerf.

Now considering magicka builds, ressource pool tends to be high. My 3 BT Altmer magNB has around 40k on front bar andy magsorc has between 40 to 43k.

Losing a percentage based bonus on magicka will hit harder. In terms of damage dealt, I still think that even with the 256 spell damage, it will result in a net loss of damage but we'll see.

Joker99

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

20% from CP? What you on about?

Gnortranermara

I'm not stressing it man. We're all hitting stupidly high numbers now anyway, so a blanket nerf was going to be coming in some shape or form soon enough. They might as well accomplish the nerf and racial balance at the same time, killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. They just better get the balance right so this nerf accomplishes its purpose.

Nolic1

Joker99 wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

20% from CP? What you on about?

At 300 cp or 100 cp into each tree gives you 20% in each stat and has been this way sense Morrowind.

MashmalloMan

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I'm not stressing it man. We're all hitting stupidly high numbers now anyway, so a blanket nerf was going to be coming in some shape or form soon enough. They might as well accomplish the nerf and racial balance at the same time, killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. They just better get the balance right so this nerf accomplishes its purpose.

With these changes it won't be a nerf for everyone. RG was already the best choice for pve stam sorc, now it will be even better as over half our stamina drain comes from weapon abilties, that being said, the other stam races look pretty appetizing now too.

For a lot of people like myself, these changes can be a buff. Altmer looks better than ever. My orc looks like it will be way stronger for pvp due to how useful a bit of sustain and wpd can do. Hurt troll king synergy here, but thats okay.

Depends what build your using, anyone who chose sets to stack resources like HP for tanks or MAG for pet sorcs/shields will be nerfed for max resources, but hopefully other buffs of their racials prop them up.

The real problem is why do some skills like pets scale off only magicka, pet sorcs are already bottom tier. Adding more resources to races like people suggest isn't the solution as the numbers they chose is the sweet spot.. Doing a balance pass on any resource only scaling abilities is the solution.

Joker99

Nolic1 wrote: »

Joker99 wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

20% from CP? What you on about?

At 300 cp or 100 cp into each tree gives you 20% in each stat and has been this way sense Morrowind.

Pretty sure it's a flat increase.

Twohothardware

Has anyone considered the fact that overall damage has gotten too high and a bit of reduction of max Stamina/Magicka from Racials is a good thing to counter the CP that keeps increasing multiple times this year.

Yes builds that revolve around stacking only one stat like Pet Sorcs will lose some but those types of builds are also the easiest to play by far because of their tankiness and healing so they shouldn't have high dps.

Priyasekarssk

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I'm not stressing it man. We're all hitting stupidly high numbers now anyway, so a blanket nerf was going to be coming in some shape or form soon enough. They might as well accomplish the nerf and racial balance at the same time, killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. They just better get the balance right so this nerf accomplishes its purpose.

With these changes it won't be a nerf for everyone. RG was already the best choice for pve stam sorc, now it will be even better as over half our stamina drain comes from weapon abilties, that being said, the other stam races look pretty appetizing now too.

For a lot of people like myself, these changes can be a buff. Altmer looks better than ever. My orc looks like it will be way stronger for pvp due to how useful a bit of sustain and wpd can do. Hurt troll king synergy here, but thats okay.

Depends what build your using, anyone who chose sets to stack resources like HP for tanks or MAG for pet sorcs/shields will be nerfed for max resources, but hopefully other buffs of their racials prop them up.

The real problem is why do some skills like pets scale off only magicka, pet sorcs are already bottom tier. Adding more resources to races like people suggest isn't the solution as the numbers they chose is the sweet spot.. Doing a balance pass on any resource only scaling abilities is the solution.

I thought pet sorcs are already dead. Even bottom tier is too generous word. Meh. Good luck . No one in ZOs going to hear you.

Vapirko

It’s all conjecture until PTS goesup

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

This is a nerf to orc stamplars for sure. It’s going to be hard to get a good PoL hit. It might not even be worth running hulking anymore because of the way you lose more stamina as you stack more.

CleymenZero

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I'm not stressing it man. We're all hitting stupidly high numbers now anyway, so a blanket nerf was going to be coming in some shape or form soon enough. They might as well accomplish the nerf and racial balance at the same time, killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. They just better get the balance right so this nerf accomplishes its purpose.

With these changes it won't be a nerf for everyone. RG was already the best choice for pve stam sorc, now it will be even better as over half our stamina drain comes from weapon abilties, that being said, the other stam races look pretty appetizing now too.

For a lot of people like myself, these changes can be a buff. Altmer looks better than ever. My orc looks like it will be way stronger for pvp due to how useful a bit of sustain and wpd can do. Hurt troll king synergy here, but thats okay.

Depends what build your using, anyone who chose sets to stack resources like HP for tanks or MAG for pet sorcs/shields will be nerfed for max resources, but hopefully other buffs of their racials prop them up.

The real problem is why do some skills like pets scale off only magicka, pet sorcs are already bottom tier. Adding more resources to races like people suggest isn't the solution as the numbers they chose is the sweet spot.. Doing a balance pass on any resource only scaling abilities is the solution.

I thought pet sorcs are already dead. Even bottom tier is too generous word. Meh. Good luck . No one in ZOs going to hear you.

It is a reserved privilege now. The one I run with from time to time parses like 57k on Foundation Stone Atronach. Yes I do 63k on my stamsorc but he's more useful than I am.

CleymenZero

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam classes shouldn't be effected as much because we didn't really stack max stam anyway, weapon dmg has become more and more valuable.

For my stam sorc:
Live: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive + 10% race] * [20% cp] = +46.4%
Removing the 10% racial passive: [4% undaunted + 8% stam sorc passive] x [20% cp] = +34.4%

Live max stam: 31117 - (Removed the 10% RG passive on PTS) = 28621
+2k sta * 1.344 = 2687.8
28621 + 2687.8 = 31308.8
31309 - 31117 = 191.8.

I should actually gain 191.8 stamina.

Plugging in your stamden numbers assuming your using at least 4% undaunted and max cp..
[4% undaunted] * [20%cp] = 1.248
2k * 1.248 = 2496
27938 + 2496 = 30434
30677 - 30434 = 243

Here you would lose 243 stam.

I found if I started with 33.5k max stam instead, removed the 10%, then added back 2687.8 stam, I would break even at 33.5k max stam. Insert developer comments:

"Developer comments" - This is a buff if you have below 33.5k max stam if you play as RG stam sorc.

We will have to wait till PTS to test properly, but it's apparent the more multipliers you have the higher the break even point becomes. For a mag sorc with inner light and bound aegis, I'd bet the break even point would be close to 35-36k max mag where if you have anything above that you will see a nerf with the 10% -> 2k mag change.

Pet sorcs will be hit hard here, no doubt.

I think I sated something along the lines of higher the ressource the bigger the loss. So in the end, all my magicka builds had minimum 38k magicka with 3 bloodthirsty or around 40-43k running arcane jewelry so this is a nerf for most magicka but might not affect stam much.

Banana

I might lose 500 magicka with current changes. Ill get over it.

Thevampirenight

Well I'm not sure but well they might be changing class passives and others even abilties to be flat value. My guess this is one of their solution to server perfermance problems the lesser the calculation going on the better the performance. If resources are some of the problem when it comes to many sever calculation's what I am thinking they are doing is reducing them. Where they can. its just a theory, as to why they are making the switch. But it makes sense. So we will have to see with the patch notes as to what else they are changing if they are going to switch more things to flat value or not. But if they are doing it with the passives its more then likely they are doing it with the class ones. So who knows we will have to wait and see.

iCaliban

What if you are a pet sorc at 57k max mag in pve? (altmer)

edit: if needed, Necro, mother sorrow, bound armor, mages guild, undaunted at 6%, ilambris monster, mage mundus

Tetrafy

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I'm not stressing it man. We're all hitting stupidly high numbers now anyway, so a blanket nerf was going to be coming in some shape or form soon enough. They might as well accomplish the nerf and racial balance at the same time, killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. They just better get the balance right so this nerf accomplishes its purpose.

Why not make the game more difficult I have never heard of an MMO that has a level ceiling amd constantly nerf base chracter to basically keep the same stats from 5 years ago.

MashmalloMan

iCaliban wrote: »

What if you are a pet sorc at 57k max mag in pve? (altmer)

edit: if needed, Necro, mother sorrow, bound armor, mages guild, undaunted at 6%, ilambris monster, mage mundus

Had to make some assumptions:

• Witchmothers Potent Brew.
• We don't know yet where the 2k magicka falls in the formula, I'll assume it's effected by 20% cp.
• All enchantments are arcane, gold quality.
• "Mages Guild" = Meteor front bar, no inner light.
• All divines, gold quality.

((17334 Base Mag + 2000 Altmer + 6618 Enchantments + 1096 MS + 3288 Necro)*(1.2 CP)) + 3192 Food + 3092 Mundus + 3150 Necro 5pc)*(1 + 6% Undaunted + 2% Mages Guild + 8% Bound Armor)

= ((30336)*(1.2)) + 9434)*(1.16)
= ((36403.2) + 9434) * 1.16
= 45837.2 * 1.16
= 53171

For someone with this build.. If I swapped the 2k out for 10% magicka from altmer:

((17334 Base Mag + 6618 Enchantments + 1096 MS + 3288 Necro)*(1.2 CP)) + 3192 Food + 3092 Mundus + 3150 Necro 5pc)*(1 + 6% Undaunted + 2% Mages Guild + 8% Bound Armor + 10% Altmer)

= ((28334)*(1.2)) + 9434)*(1.26)
= ((34003.2) + 9434) * 1.26
= (43437.2) * 1.26
= 54731

Here, a mag pet build would only lose 1559 magicka. Honestly, it sounds like a lot, but you gain a LOT of spell dmg for abilities that had no element like daedric prey.

Thanks @Masel for his work here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

1.2.1. Maximum resources

Maximum resources are one of the two core determinants of base damage. You get it through enchantments, set bonuses, passives, food and drinks and attribute points. As I stated above, maximising (or rather idealising) the amount you have is crucial to doing damage. Here's the formula in general:

Maximum Magicka =((142 * Level + 858 + 111 * Attribute Flat Magicka + Item Flat Magicka + Set Flat Magicka)*(1 + 0.004 * min(CP.Magicka, 100) - 0.00002 * pow(min(CP.Magicka, 100), 2)) + Food Flat Magicka + Mundus Flat Magicka + Skill2 Flat Magicka)*(1 + Skill % Magicka + Buff % Magicka)

This again looks complicated, but it is easier if we break it down into pieces. The first term (142 * Level + 858) is simply the base magicka that every maximum level character has, and is equal to 10230. On top of that, we add the attributes we invested, which are 64 at maximum: 111*64=7104. Afterwards we have most of the flat magicka bonuses you can get, such as regular set bonuses. 5-piece bonuses do NOT fall under this category because they do not benefit from the CP bonus (why they don't is a different question).

Now comes the tricky part: These base values get amplified by 20%, which is the result of this part of the formula: (1 + 0.004 * min(CP.Magicka, 100) - 0.00002 * pow(min(CP.Magicka, 100), 2))=0.2. This is the reward that all players that invest at least 100 cps into the respective cp tree get. So if you wonder why max magicka bonuses are lower than spell damage flat bonuses with regard to the scaling ratio, then this is the reason why. Most flat bonuses to maximum resources are amplified strongly by your cp level, which is also why investing too much into maximum resources is very detrimental in no-cp content (e.g. sotha sil campaign and battlegrounds).

Then afterwards, we have bonuses that are not amplified by the cp-%, such as food, mundus stones (mage, tower, lord) and 5-piece sets (necropotence, shacklebreaker etc). Take this into account when you use a mundus stone. This is also the reason why using the mage and tower mundus stone is generally weaker than their weapon stat counterpart, as it misses this strong 20% amplifier.

The last amplifier includes things like warhorn, inner light, bound aegis/armaments and passives (nightblades' magicka flood), racial passives et cetera. This affects all bonuses you can get, and is multiplicative with the cp buff.

iCaliban

@Marshall1289 , thanks for the write up, I left a few things out apparently that were needed. But seeing the formula, I can go do the math on it myself.

For others, it was blue food and inner light max mag bonuses. The overall result seems clear, not a terrible loss in dps. Loss in max mag seems made up for by increased spell damage.