Race changes and why nerfing is the wrong approach

cheifsoap

Let me start everything off with saying I've been playing MMORPG's since UO was released and since then I've played EQ, WoW, and beta'd a handful of other ones. There's one challenge all of these games have had and its balance between the classes and/or races. Nerfing has done nothing but cause a split between the player base and the development team. No one likes getting nerfed, especially since so much time and effort has gone in to developing builds and gearing those characters. I've seen this happen so many times, it's one of the primary reasons I gave up on WoW 7 or so years ago.

There are a couple of things I think ESO devs have to accept, unless you remove all race based perks, there will always be a meta. MMO's in general promote min/maxing for those who want to get the most out of their character and the numbers will be crunched and a winner will rise. While I respect the effort ESO devs have made, I feel that it is misguided and only repeating the same mistakes other companies have made in an effort to "balance". Stop nerfing and start buffing. Bring other races in line with each other without nerfing, it takes a little bit of effort and creativity but I promise that the reception will be more positive.

With all that being said, I don't disagree with all of the changes; I think power creep is real and removing percentage based perks was the right thing to do and honestly, should have been done a long time ago but I highly recommend reevaluating the approach to balancing the races otherwise you'll repeat the same mistakes every dev has made since UO.

Tasear

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

SaintSubwayy

Tasear wrote: »

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

Raise teh floor, and lower the cieling will ultimatly end up in the loss of the endgame PVE community. As sad as it is.
If it werent for annicanceling and weaving, which both require some skill, the cieling would already be the floor IMO.

This babysitting for not as skilled players as others are, and trying to give them stuff nearly for free has to stop asap.

Soe call it elitism, but actually its pretty much like evolution, good stuff stais, bad dies out.
Players good enough to complete any content may stay when something new is released, but ppls who cannot complete dungeons ect. will leave at some point, because their needs arent satisfied.

As long as the playerinflux outnumbers the players leaving ZOS will keep watering down content, and older players get bored and move on.

So a good player may stick for lets say 5 years incl. ESO+ and buys chapters. spending money consistently.
While new players may buy the game, play 1-2 years maybe sub, maybe dont sub and then they leave.

ZOS doesnt value the longterm subs and players enough IMO.
but thats their choice.

Tasear

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

Raise teh floor, and lower the cieling will ultimatly end up in the loss of the endgame PVE community. As sad as it is.
If it werent for annicanceling and weaving, which both require some skill, the cieling would already be the floor IMO.

This babysitting for not as skilled players as others are, and trying to give them stuff nearly for free has to stop asap.

Soe call it elitism, but actually its pretty much like evolution, good stuff stais, bad dies out.
Players good enough to complete any content may stay when something new is released, but ppls who cannot complete dungeons ect. will leave at some point, because their needs arent satisfied.

As long as the playerinflux outnumbers the players leaving ZOS will keep watering down content, and older players get bored and move on.

So a good player may stick for lets say 5 years incl. ESO+ and buys chapters. spending money consistently.
While new players may buy the game, play 1-2 years maybe sub, maybe dont sub and then they leave.

ZOS doesnt value the longterm subs and players enough IMO.
but thats their choice.

I have a different perspective then you do. End game will still be able to push numbers, but radicials won't make or break player or skill as much anymore. You can still be competitive but other racial aren't hurt as much when they try to push themselves to limit of their skill with that race.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

They still haven't fixed the fact that Khajiits have more whiskers on one side then the other. Odd numbered whiskered Kitties are bad luck.

This kind of ties into the CP cap lock of 830. They are removing power that CP gave. But from outside the CP tree.I will be on PTS and will collect data and numbers to help with the changes.

Baroness Tasear you said this "but bring other racial options in line" How does this apply to selecting Dunmer Vs. Altmer for Magicka? For Mag DK the favorite was Dunmer. Now not so much. I say this with respect and Love.

Altmer losing the 9% recovery is going to crimp my Healer.

I will wait and see what happens with my Bosmer Warden prototank.

Others have said more eloquently. I will wait and see the results when I get to the PTS


The only thing I see brought inline is that the reductions are equally distasteful for all races.

And BTW T. thank you for your work as a rep and your healer guides.

SaintSubwayy

Tasear wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

Raise teh floor, and lower the cieling will ultimatly end up in the loss of the endgame PVE community. As sad as it is.
If it werent for annicanceling and weaving, which both require some skill, the cieling would already be the floor IMO.

This babysitting for not as skilled players as others are, and trying to give them stuff nearly for free has to stop asap.

Soe call it elitism, but actually its pretty much like evolution, good stuff stais, bad dies out.
Players good enough to complete any content may stay when something new is released, but ppls who cannot complete dungeons ect. will leave at some point, because their needs arent satisfied.

As long as the playerinflux outnumbers the players leaving ZOS will keep watering down content, and older players get bored and move on.

So a good player may stick for lets say 5 years incl. ESO+ and buys chapters. spending money consistently.
While new players may buy the game, play 1-2 years maybe sub, maybe dont sub and then they leave.

ZOS doesnt value the longterm subs and players enough IMO.
but thats their choice.

I have a different perspective then you do. End game will still be able to push numbers, but radicials won't make or break player or skill as much anymore. You can still be competitive but other racial aren't hurt as much when they try to push themselves to limit of their skill with that race.

ofc we will always be pushing numbers, but when the difference between the average player (floor) and the goodplayers (cieling) becomes small enough, then I wont be surprised that the goodplayers will start to leave.

As soon as the floor starts hitting the leaderboards easily, we will probably move on.
Some competition is good and healty, but when all get smusched into the same, where's the competition then?

TheGreatBlackBear

These racial changes are unwelcome because they bring nothing to meaningful to ESO. Nothing will change really. Those at the top will race change to Altmer and whatever race is meta for stam (with tokens bought using gold from raids) and push higher and higher scores. After the new patch drops we'll still be here on these forums complaining about light attack spammers in pugs, we'll still be saying that we're carrying group dps while on a tank/healer and Cyro will still be laggy af. And a vast majority of players will not break 20k regardless of what race they pick, because there's no in-game education of what a proper rotation is. Or any explanation of any role for that matter.

cheifsoap

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

Raise teh floor, and lower the cieling will ultimatly end up in the loss of the endgame PVE community. As sad as it is.
If it werent for annicanceling and weaving, which both require some skill, the cieling would already be the floor IMO.

This babysitting for not as skilled players as others are, and trying to give them stuff nearly for free has to stop asap.

Soe call it elitism, but actually its pretty much like evolution, good stuff stais, bad dies out.
Players good enough to complete any content may stay when something new is released, but ppls who cannot complete dungeons ect. will leave at some point, because their needs arent satisfied.

As long as the playerinflux outnumbers the players leaving ZOS will keep watering down content, and older players get bored and move on.

So a good player may stick for lets say 5 years incl. ESO+ and buys chapters. spending money consistently.
While new players may buy the game, play 1-2 years maybe sub, maybe dont sub and then they leave.

ZOS doesnt value the longterm subs and players enough IMO.
but thats their choice.

In my experience what keeps people engaged in an MMO is the community and friendships they develop overtime. Sure the content has a decent amount to do with it but that isn't the primary reason. People leave for a number of reasons and one size rarely fits all; different games, guild dissolving, extreme nerfs, burn out, real life situations, etc. The hardcore PVE or PVP guys make a small minority of all player bases and if they leave because their itch isn't being scratched, its not a reflection of the game itself but of their personality.

Ohhgrizyyy

cheifsoap wrote: »

Let me start everything off with saying I've been playing MMORPG's since UO was released and since then I've played EQ, WoW, and beta'd a handful of other ones. There's one challenge all of these games have had and its balance between the classes and/or races. Nerfing has done nothing but cause a split between the player base and the development team. No one likes getting nerfed, especially since so much time and effort has gone in to developing builds and gearing those characters. I've seen this happen so many times, it's one of the primary reasons I gave up on WoW 7 or so years ago.

There are a couple of things I think ESO devs have to accept, unless you remove all race based perks, there will always be a meta. MMO's in general promote min/maxing for those who want to get the most out of their character and the numbers will be crunched and a winner will rise. While I respect the effort ESO devs have made, I feel that it is misguided and only repeating the same mistakes other companies have made in an effort to "balance". Stop nerfing and start buffing. Bring other races in line with each other without nerfing, it takes a little bit of effort and creativity but I promise that the reception will be more positive.

With all that being said, I don't disagree with all of the changes; I think power creep is real and removing percentage based perks was the right thing to do and honestly, should have been done a long time ago but I highly recommend reevaluating the approach to balancing the races otherwise you'll repeat the same mistakes every dev has made since UO.

I fully agree with you and honestly lets face it. Games are more fun when everything is OP lol

Tasear

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

They still haven't fixed the fact that Khajiits have more whiskers on one side then the other. Odd numbered whiskered Kitties are bad luck.

This kind of ties into the CP cap lock of 830. They are removing power that CP gave. But from outside the CP tree.I will be on PTS and will collect data and numbers to help with the changes.

Baroness Tasear you said this "but bring other racial options in line" How does this apply to selecting Dunmer Vs. Altmer for Magicka? For Mag DK the favorite was Dunmer. Now not so much. I say this with respect and Love.

Altmer losing the 9% recovery is going to crimp my Healer.

I will wait and see what happens with my Bosmer Warden prototank.

Others have said more eloquently. I will wait and see the results when I get to the PTS


The only thing I see brought inline is that the reductions are equally distasteful for all races.

And BTW T. thank you for your work as a rep and your healer guides.

Yeah made I saw that just remember we talk about because it hasn't even hit pts nor live. Changes can still be adjusted

cheifsoap

Tasear wrote: »

I don't believe it was just about power creep but bring other racial options in line. You will be able to min/max still but other options aren't trash as to say. It brought the ceiling down

Right. My point was not to bring the ceiling down but rather, bring the floor up. I feel like we're just using different verbiage for nerf and buff. Am I wrong? and IMO, it absolutely has to do with power creep, its the inevitable results of using percentage based modifiers over flat modifiers overtime.

Girl_Number8

I don't see the loyalty to the endgame community that has supported the game since it has come out. It is clear their direction is new players and catering to them. I am frustrated by their endless greed, as well. We have repeatedly asked for performance fixes and instead get nerfs and more issues. It is truly a beautiful game and I will wait for the pts to see how things are, so I can start theory crafting new builds and update my others to the new changes. Beyond that the forums can be a great place to push for change if civility can be kept.

cheifsoap

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

I don't see the loyalty to the endgame community that has supported the game since it has come out. It is clear their direction is new players and catering to them. I am frustrated by their endless greed, as well. We have repeatedly asked for performance fixes and instead get nerfs and more issues. It is truly a beautiful game and I will wait for the pts to see how things are, so I can start theory crafting new builds and update my others to the new changes. Beyond that the forums can be a great place to push for change if civility can be kept.

I understand how you feel because I used to feel the same way back in my WoW days but endgame makes up such a small percentage of the player base, the loyalty so to speak are the extras we get from beating stuff on hardmode. Sure its just pretty pixels but its something that the majority will not get without a carry. Any MMO cannot sustain subs if its solely based on its endgame, in my experience what brings people in to a new MMO is its affordability and fun factor; one thing I've noticed since playing ESO is that most people have very thin skin when it comes to wiping, they don't find it fun and rarely are willing to bang their heads against the wall until they succeed at a hardmode - that's not very fun for them.