Dragons in ESO clarification?

Wreckless_Riot

Im excited for the new chapter and all the awesome features but cant help but to be a bit bothered by the way dragons are being implemented. Im thinking I might be mistaken but with this chapter are we suddenly getting a dragon invastion on the same scale as skyrim?

I thought it was established in lore that there were so few dragons around at this point in history, that they are already thought to be extinct.

Is there any lore clarification out there yet that explains why the upcoming chapter is contradicting the devs statement from several years ago saying there will be no dragons in the time that eso takes place?

Im just curious as a big elder scrolls lore nerd

wenchmore420b14_ESO

According to the stream, we saw only 3 dragons.
From what Rich said it looks as if they are only gonna be in trials and dungeons as bosses with the "big" dragon being the end of the year long story line..
Hope this helps...
Huzzah!

Faulgor

Wreckless_Riot wrote: »

Im excited for the new chapter and all the awesome features but cant help but to be a bit bothered by the way dragons are being implemented. Im thinking I might be mistaken but with this chapter are we suddenly getting a dragon invastion on the same scale as skyrim?

I thought it was established in lore that there were so few dragons around at this point in history, that they are already thought to be extinct.

Is there any lore clarification out there yet that explains why the upcoming chapter is contradicting the devs statement from several years ago saying there will be no dragons in the time that eso takes place?

Im just curious as a big elder scrolls lore nerd

Well, they were almost extinct because they were hunted close to extinction, both by the Akaviri and the Nords in the Dragon War, and probably others.
The dragons in Elsweyr were locked away in the Hall of Colossus. When, by whom, for what purpose, we do not know. But that certainly would have kept them alive, until now.

Wreckless_Riot

I think his comment was that we only saw three but that those three were gonna go wake up all their buddies. One of the things they talked about was how all the dragons would have mix and match appearances and names to keep each dragon looking unique in the dragon hunt dolmen style events throughout the zone. Thats what made it sound like a full blown invasion to me, which was where i was having an issue making sense of it. Thanks for the response though!

Wreckless_Riot

Faulgor wrote: »

Well, they were almost extinct because they were hunted close to extinction, both by the Akaviri and the Nords in the Dragon War, and probably others.
The dragons in Elsweyr were locked away in the Hall of Colossus. When, by whom, for what purpose, we do not know. But that certainly would have kept them alive, until now.

I believe they specifically said that only 3 were locked in the vault and that those three were going to bring the rest out of hibernation

Dagoth_Rac

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

Wreckless_Riot

That definitely plays a part im sure but if they r gonna do that they usually give at least a lore reason or excuse to justify it. Like the baby dragon pet they talked about is a shapeshifted imp in order to justify it.

Claudman

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

Except the appearance of Dragons is very much lore-friendly considering Tiber Septim gathers all the remaining dragons at the end of the Second Era and has one as his lieutenant in TES: Redguard.

I don't know how many times this needs to be said. lol

I'll wait until the expansion comes out for the explanation, all we're going on is speculation and small details. I think it's going to be pretty neat, I mean the Dragons they have already look better than the "Play Doh looking Dragons" in Skyrim.
Also, it was only stated by pedestrians and soldiers who don't know any better that the Dragons are all extinct. The Dragonguard contradict these statements with the Atlas of Dragons which was a book that was introduced in TESV: Skyrim.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

A few dragons, locked away as bosses and such, I can live with lore wise.
A full intrusion like in Skyrim with skies full? No. That throws lore totally out.
But, we have to look at the BIG picture of what Zo$ is doing here.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

We have seen in the last year a "not to happy" customer base. I imagined the board meeting like...
"We need something. What are people wanting? Necromancers? Dragons? Elswheyr? Ok. Let's give em all of it. Make it where they have to play for a year so we can hit log in numbers. Save money on no Physical CE editions and target new players with pre order bundles. Throw some re-skinned fluff for good measure."etc....

BUT! Will wait and see what PTS looks like.
They ARE adding lots of QoL stuff and things we have wanted for a long time, but all at once and walking the "Lore" fine line?
We'll see. We'll see......

“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”

PrinceShroob

There's no indication that the shout Alduin uses in Skyrim to resurrect dead dragons is unique to him. If any dragon can use this ability, it would explain why generic dragons are comparatively common and dragon attacks don't cease once Alduin is defeated.

In fact, if dragons can resurrect each other and cannot truly be killed unless their soul is absorbed, this might explain why a mass dragon hunt was necessary, rather than a mere human rebellion.

Wreckless_Riot

PrinceShroob wrote: »

There's no indication that the shout Alduin uses in Skyrim to resurrect dead dragons is unique to him. If any dragon can use this ability, it would explain why generic dragons are comparatively common and dragon attacks don't cease once Alduin is defeated.

In fact, if dragons can resurrect each other and cannot truly be killed unless their soul is absorbed, this might explain why a mass dragon hunt was necessary, rather than a mere human rebellion.

That is an awesome point, ive always assumed that since alduin is the only dragon rezzing the dragons in skyrim, that meant hes the only one who can.

The dragons so far seem to be making a bit more sense to me in this context but it still feels like skyrim reskinned... then again they already repurposed the plot from oblivion in the base game so... lol

Wreckless_Riot

Id love to see a lore video with Lawrence Schick explaining what happened with dragons in the past and how they arent actually extinct or at least present a good background going into the events of the new chapter. Maybe after we see the events of the Wrathstone DLC to avoid too many spoilers?

Ackadian

I just really really wish we will get to hear some dragon tongue...

Smaxx

You'll definitely hear it whenever any of their names is mentioned, you just don't necessarily know or notice it.

Kaalgrontiid – Kaal Gron Tiid – Champion Spanning Time (or similar)
Nahviintaas – Nah Viintaas – Shining Fury

(Thuum.org)

Vuldovahkriid

Per UESP

The Disappearance of the Dragons
The Akaviri Dragonguard and its successor, the Blades, along with other heroes, hunted dragons and their followers throughout the eras until dragons were nearly extinct. Tiber Septim offered those who remained protection in return for their fealty. Despite his pledge, almost all known wild dragons were killed or driven off, disappearing from sight in Tamriel.

So per this, we can indeed fight dragons. We are the other heroes, among them some harness the power of the old Dragonguard.

notimetocare

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

Spoken like someone who prefers head canon to what the developer and story writers say

jd24

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

I am here downloading the game again and about to be an eso plus member again simply because I saw dragons in an awesome cinematic.

So this statement is very true. I hope there are 10000s of dragons.

nickl413

joedraper24b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

I am here downloading the game again and about to be an eso plus member again simply because I saw dragons in an awesome cinematic.

So this statement is very true. I hope there are 10000s of dragons.

Same here. I've been inactive since October. I started playing again because I saw the trailer. Whats weird is that I'm actually someone who wishes they would spend more time thinking about lore before creating new content and stick to it a little better, and yet this (probably) lore-breaking expansion is attracting me to the game.

phantasmalD

nickl413 wrote: »

joedraper24b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

I am here downloading the game again and about to be an eso plus member again simply because I saw dragons in an awesome cinematic.

So this statement is very true. I hope there are 10000s of dragons.

Same here. I've been inactive since October. I started playing again because I saw the trailer. Whats weird is that I'm actually someone who wishes they would spend more time thinking about lore before creating new content and stick to it a little better, and yet this (probably) lore-breaking expansion is attracting me to the game.

They obviously think a lot about the lore considering how they went back Arena for inspiration for the latest DLC, Wrathstone

There's nothing in the lore that says there were no dragons around during the second era, infact the opposite is true. Skyrim itself had at least one lorebook confirming this.

Also, Tiber Septim is known to have employed dragons as mercenaries, providing asylum from the Blades to those who submit to him, one such dragon was slain during the events of Redguard that took place during the year 2E864 (that's about ~300 years after the present days of ESO)

RebornV3x

Per the Atlas of Dragons book in Skyrim there are at most 4 dragons alive during this time not including Parthanax on the Throat of the World this whole dragon thing is a slap in the face of all established lore up to this point 1 or 2 dragons that are hidden away in a trial or dungeon is fine but a whole bunch just flying around out in the open is pure BS just to make money. you think a whole bunch of Dragons appearing out of a cave in Elswyr would be a huge event for the Blades and wouldn't be something overlooked or lost to history.

I mean its a game but if lore can be so easily set aside and discarded whats the point of even caring about the story. might as well just go the Destiny route and just not have one.

phantasmalD

RebornV3x wrote: »

Per the Atlas of Dragons book in Skyrim there are at most 4 dragons alive during this time

By that logic there was only 23 dragons ever in existence cause that's how much the Atlas mentions.
There are 22 dragon mounds in the TESV version of Skyrim and 2 in Solstheim, so the numbers already don't add up.
There's also Numinex who is on constant display in Dragonsreach, Labyrinthian's Bone dragon and the mysterious dragon of Blackreach. Also, Durnehviir who is eternally trapped in Soul Cairn and as far as the Blades should know is alive.

But the Atlas itself says that it's incomplete

Unfortunately, only a few of the dragons slain by our Akaviri predecessors during the Crusade were recorded and thus this list is sadly incomplete.

The Blades (or rather Dragonguard at this point of time) are not omniscent, they don't know everything and don't have secret dragon seeking goggles.
Also, they aren't exactly a thing atm as explained during the Imperial City questline. Their primary focus is to serve the Dragonborn Emperor and there isn't such a thing atm and they aren't exactly on friendly terms with Mannimarco and co. so they were pretty much disbanded and persecuted.

you think a whole bunch of Dragons appearing out of a cave in Elswyr would be a huge event for the Blades and wouldn't be something overlooked or lost to history.

If you are saying "why isn't such a massive dragon outbreak recorded in the Atlas?" That's because the Atlas is dated to 2E 373 and ESO takes place around 2E 582. The Atlas obviously can't mention something that happens over 200 years later, especially when the order that would make it doesn't even exist officially.

dodgehopper_ESO

I just want a gray beard, I hear there's a monastic order you can join for that up on a mountain in Skyrim.

Korah_Eaglecry

Its going to be interesting seeing how they explain these dragons and why theyre locked away. What Im hoping for is an Akaviri backstory. They look different enough and Akavir dragons would be pretty cool.

Vapirko

Is it too early to ask for natch potes?

Also when does the PTS usually start for the chapter update?

Iccotak

If anyone has looked at the story in Wrathstone I would say it is fairly obvious what is going on.

In ancient times the Khajiit, like the Nords, revolted against the Dragons and magically imprisoned them in many locations which was possibly within another plane of existence (as to how there were so many hidden away).
In Wrathstone we see about a dozen, including Kaalgrontiid, escape. They will find the other imprisoned dragons and free them to establish their rule over Elsweyr.
Not only because Dragons view it as their right but also because they are very angry at the Khajiit for what they did.

LadySinflower

I really hope all the dragons aren't hidden in trials and vet-only content. There are lots of players who are excited to see dragons in the game but aren't ready to enter the end-game content. Personally, I would love to be going about my business and have a dragon descend from the sky intent upon destruction. Everyone in the immediate area could then battle the dragon, world-boss style. I'm not a game developer, though, so I don't know if it's possible to put something like that into a multi-player game. In Skyrim, once the dragon had found you, the only way to get away from it was to go into a cave or barrow (it would pursue you). And sometimes that didn't work because you'd come out and find the dragon still there. With the multi-player game I would hope that you could leave the area and let those who wanted to fight the dragon do so. There are so many cool ways they could put the dragons into the game that to hide them in content that only a few players could access would be a shame. Not to mention that it would draw the ire of lower-level players who wanted to see and fight dragons but would feel that they had been misled. There has to be a way to give everyone a taste of what they are so proudly hyping.

Myrkgrav

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dragons = $$$$
$$$$ > Lore

wahh wahh wahhhh people cry when they deviate from lore, people cry when they give us lore.

Browiseth

"dragons were never gone, they were just hiding...and very very sneaky"

elder scrolls lore operates on an unreliable narrator principle. most players think dragons were extinct or extremely rare because all the nords in tes:v say so. but most people by the time of skyrim don't know anything about dragons or real history, and nords are well known for embellishing or over romanticising their own history to begin with.

just apply it to the real world for context; would you really believe some backwater, overly patriotic normal person on his country's history? because that's what many nords are in the context of tes:v skyrim, people who don't really understand history, but really want to pretend their race and country is better than it is. it makes sense they would twist history to make it seem like the ancient nords wiped out 99% of all dragons in a place of a lack of information

bit of a long ramble i could have structured better, but hopefully you get my meaning

Kambo

Here is the book Khunzar-ri and the Demons, found within the Halls of Colossus in ESO. Please, give it a read to learn even a little bit more about the Elsweyr dragons. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Khunzar-ri_and_the_Demons

From this book we can see already tell that Khunzar-ri and his remaining companions most likely found a way to lock away Kaalgrontiid and his two other dragon pals within the Halls. Unfortunately, Euraxia Tharn released these three in the Second Era after having lured Abnur Tharn to the Halls, and he failed to reseal them.

It was only around 200 years prior to the events of ESO that we learned the remnants of the Akaviri Dragonguard last hunted dragons. That was the last recorded case anyways. Note, however, that it's only mentioned that they hunted the dragons in Skyrim, and not necessarily all of Tamriel. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blades

"Others continued hunting the wary surviving dragons in Skyrim until at least 2E 373"

This means two things. One) If they only hunted remaining dragons in Skyrim, then it stands to reason that many of the surviving dragons would have simply fled Skyrim altogether and hid within the mountainous regions or other areas of other provinces. Two) It was only around 200 years ago that Tamriel last saw or heard of dragons, but it wasn't nearly as long ago as it was during the events of Skyrim.

ESO takes place roughly 1000 years prior to the events of Skyrim, thus meaning as far as we knew the last recorded events involving dragons would have been 1200 years prior to the events of Skyrim. Now, we know it was only around 1000 years. Many of the events from the Second Era have actually been lost to time for the most part, and I feel like the only reason we have detailed knowledge of the Era in the first place is because we are playing through its events in the actual game. Not necessarily because it's knowledge that is being recorded. This means that the events of Elsweyr might actually be the truly last time that a large amount of dragons are seen or heard of for a very long time, up until Tiber Septim encounters them. It could also mean that during Elsweyr we, the players, end up wiping out a large amount of the remaining dragon population, which is what truly solidifies the idea that they're extinct to the mass population of Tamriel for the next 1000 years.

Overall there are a lot of explanations and speculations to be made about how this will all go down. But regardless of all of that, I don't think they did dragons as a way to sell more game copies, or that they really needed to in the first place. The game has been in a great state for a while now, minus some balancing issues here and there, but what game, especially an MMO, doesn't have even a little bit of balancing issues?

I don't think this is a cash grab because the plot of Elsweyr's story likely could have involved literally anything else and it still would have been hyped up and it still likely would have sold many copies, based on the premise alone that we have not at all been to Elsweyr since Arena, which was released in 1994, and we have been wanting to see and learn more about the province and its inhabitants ever since.

As one final side note, I sincerely doubt the implementations of other dragons will be anything like Skyrim. They most likely won't be flying around everywhere waiting to attack you on the side of a road. There might be one or two related to quest lines, disregarding the original three that were released as they are supposed to be part of dungeons, except one of them I think? (I'm not super sure on that last one) And I can't imagine there being many Dragon Attack events, but then again it is an entire province. Yet also again most average zones in vanilla only had like max 3 - 4 Dolmens, so I am at least 95% sure there won't be Dragon Attacks flooding the map in Elsweyr. Still, I could be wrong. We'll just have to wait until June to find out for sure

EDIT: Added some missed information, fixed some spelling errors, and added the source for the Dragonguard's hunting of the dragons.

FabresFour

Kambo wrote: »

"thus meaning as far as we knew the last recorded events involving dragons would have been 1200 years prior to the events of Skyrim. Now, we know it was only around 1000 years.

Not exactly 1200 years, during the Tiber wars, dragons were seen again in Tamriel and even Tiber Septim made agreement with the rest.

The last occurrence of dragons in Tamriel is much less time than 1200 years (including having the appearance of one of these dragons in Elder Scrolls: Redguard). To be more exact, the dragons disappeared with Tiber Septim. If we consider that the last dragons disappeared in the year of Tiber Septim's death, as is speculated, then they disappeared only 596 years before TESV: Skyrim.

And yet, this disappearance is somewhat controversial, since shortly after the Red Year, a dragon was spotted going to live on Red Mountain (Morrowind was already free from Cliff Racers, so it would be easy to live in the midst of fire and lava).

Note: There were seven (7) dragons confirmed by the Elsweyr prologue. It's a small number, especially if it's resolved efficiently. It is a dangerous threat, especially in a time when there is not a dragonborn to prevent the attack. But still, it's a small number.

And it is necessary to remember that, DESPITE to have several very-really-*** old people in Elder Scrolls Series, the main way of passing knowledge is through manuscripts, books and papers.

This is something that the series has always frizzed, bringing different points of view: Nothing prevents a people from ever seeing a dragon in life, while another has come to call them "devils," "big cats," or even " colossus ", causing misinformation about the real nature of the notorious dragons.

Kambo

FabresFour wrote: »

Not exactly 1200 years, during the Tiber wars, dragons were seen again in Tamriel and even Tiber Septim made agreement with the rest.

The last occurrence of dragons in Tamriel is much less time than 1200 years (including having the appearance of one of these dragons in Elder Scrolls: Redguard). To be more exact, the dragons disappeared with Tiber Septim. If we consider that the last dragons disappeared in the year of Tiber Septim's death, as is speculated, then they disappeared only 596 years before TESV: Skyrim.

And yet, this disappearance is somewhat controversial, since shortly after the Red Year, a dragon was spotted going to live on Red Mountain (Morrowind was already free from Cliff Racers, so it would be easy to live in the midst of fire and lava).

I had never heard of a dragon going to live on Red Mountain and I had actually forgotten about Nafaalilargus, so thanks for passing on the information. I was aware of the agreement Tiber Septim made, but not in much detail. In any case, most of the information I've seen in the games has referred to the dragons being gone for around 1000 years, though the common exception to be made is Nafaalilargus. It also doesn't necessarily derail what I said, as nearly 600 years is still longer than around a mere 200, and most people probably wouldn't know about or remember Nafaalilargus, and maybe even the dragon sightings during the Tiber wars, making the most common accounts of dragons by a large populace still being around 1000 years prior to the events of Skyrim, assuming you don't count the one that supposedly went to live on Red Mountain, which understandably could have just been passed off as rumors or lies by most people.

No matter that history though, the dragons in Elsweyr are still perfectly plausible as there are most certainly more surviving dragons about during that time period than there likely were around the time of Skyrim, especially since we'll likely be killing most, if not all of the dragons that got released.