Will spellcrafting make classes obsolete?

Bigevilpeter

If you can make any skill of any combination, wouldnt that make any class use any skill? Also the class themes would be broken if a DK can use shadowlike abilities or templars use dark magic?

I think spellcrafting is a bad idea in general and would make the classes very stale. Even if they limited within the skills within the classes trees you can make enough combinations and buffs/debuffs within any role making all classes simillar with different visuals and passives ofc.

I really hope spellcrafting doesn happen and this is just a rumor so many blance issues and uncontrolled randomness can happen

Defilted

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

actosh

You should read how spellcrafting was actually planned.
If ever implemented like planned by zos, spellcrafting has a few own skills wich u can choose 1 of 5 modifiers for (intensify, lenghten, and so on).

This means your classskills will be the same as they have ever been.

Go and check this out to get a base understanding on how Spellcrafting was intended to work.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2xpn39/data_mining_spellcrafting_what_is_it_and_what_are/

It could be however, if zos will introduce spellcrafting, that they changed the system and let it affect your class skills, but even if it WOULD, i dont see a real big problem, its then all about decisions.

Dracan_Fontom

From what I remember from QuakeCon 2014, and spellcrafting initial showcase, there will probably be limits to what you can do when spell crafting. The devs even acknowledged that they wantes to make sure that spells could be incredibly broken.

If I remember correctly, when looking at menu when they showed the menu to create a Flame Atro spell there was a max of 6 bonus spell effects - Base, Ultimate, Enduring, Reduced Cost, Ritual, AoE.

Base, Reduced Cost and Ultimate are self explanatory. Enduring I see being an increase to duratio . Ritual would probably be some like how accelerate gets a channeled morph with a massive duration - personally see dps skills to not use this at all - or have permanent pets. Then AoE is well AoE of course.

So right here there is already a limit to what you can make so I don't really believe that class skills will be made redundant but I do think spellcrafting could help make this... more interesting.

Feric51

Defilted wrote: »

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

You mean kinda how they're about to make races not relevant?

Okay, that may be a bit cynical, but when anytime you homogenize something it tends to take any individuality away.

Ertosi

Feric51 wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

You mean kinda how they're about to make races not relevant?

Okay, that may be a bit cynical, but when anytime you homogenize something it tends to take any individuality away.

It hurts because it might be true. We can only wait and see. My trust in them has not been great lately thanks to many of their recent ESO+ and Crown Store decisions.

GeneralSezme

Spellcrafting hasn’t even been confirmed, people are just dredging up videos and post from 5 years ago

Tasear

I believe ideally it will open up classes to new possibilities to fix a lot of issues we have in game.

*Sovle - Not enough stamina Skills
* Solve - Everyone has the same skills on bars
*Overland Content is boring - Replayablity in Old zones (looking for tablets to spells)
* Add more individual playstyle

In regards to balance, my suggestion just make variations on spells with different duration, ranges, and strengths. The issues with balance come from it being to easy for everyone to have everything at optimal level also no variations.

@ZOS_RobGarrett

Vanthras79

No, it would not. It would just add unique spells to the classes spells and abilities.

Turelus

As others have said the way it was implemented it wouldn't impact classes that much. My biggest issue with the idea of spell crafting system is I don't think it will be very interesting for very long, once you have all the "parts" someone will figure out the best combinations for role and builds and everyone will just make those and use them.

ESO in its current state doesn't offer gameplay which requires interesting changes or mixes to spells, just best heals/damage for rotations. If we had elemental defences which were meaningful or CC which was needed in fights it might be more interesting to have a customised spell system.

If ZOS ever goes forward with spell crafting then I think Tyranny (Isometric RPG) should be mandatory playing for them to experience the spell crafting in another system.

GeneralSezme

Turelus wrote: »

As others have said the way it was implemented it wouldn't impact classes that much. My biggest issue with the idea of spell crafting system is I don't think it will be very interesting for very long, once you have all the "parts" someone will figure out the best combinations for role and builds and everyone will just make those and use them.

ESO in its current state doesn't offer gameplay which requires interesting changes or mixes to spells, just best heals/damage for rotations. If we had elemental defences which were meaningful or CC which was needed in fights it might be more interesting to have a customised spell system.

If ZOS ever goes forward with spell crafting then I think Tyranny (Isometric RPG) should be mandatory playing for them to experience the spell crafting in another system.

Anything that brings more depth to combat is fine with me, theres also a lot of stuff in the game thats been in the game a long time but takes a long time for people to realize it is good, like Cyrodiils Crest, Duroks Bane come to mind. I dont think homogenizing gameplay will be a problem with it, quite the opposite I believe, as long as stam abillities can be played with as well.

ZonasArch

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

If you can make any skill of any combination, wouldnt that make any class use any skill? Also the class themes would be broken if a DK can use shadowlike abilities or templars use dark magic?

I think spellcrafting is a bad idea in general and would make the classes very stale. Even if they limited within the skills within the classes trees you can make enough combinations and buffs/debuffs within any role making all classes simillar with different visuals and passives ofc.

I really hope spellcrafting doesn happen and this is just a rumor so many blance issues and uncontrolled randomness can happen

It's not, at this point, "will it do this?". It's "would". Nothing is confirmed, yet all this people here in the forums, so eager to whine and yell and complain are already saying it'll be poop, even though we don't even know if it's coming or not, and if it is, how it'll be implemented.

So save your crying and forum pollution for next week, if you must still whine. Thanks.

Faulgor

ZOS' teaser campaign is misleading too many people into believing that spellcrafting is coming.
I don't really understand why ZOS did it like this, but there'll be a lot of disappointment.

Cloudless

Feric51 wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

You mean kinda how they're about to make races not relevant?

Okay, that may be a bit cynical, but when anytime you homogenize something it tends to take any individuality away.

How exactly does "individuality" benefit from the fact that every stamina character has to be a Redguard and every magicka character has to be an Altmer, right now?

EphemeraCrawford

One day after spellcrafting hits the PTS there will be a meta Best Spell and everyone will be crying for nerf. It's pointless to introduce the mechanic.

Leocaran

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

If you can make any skill of any combination, wouldnt that make any class use any skill? Also the class themes would be broken if a DK can use shadowlike abilities or templars use dark magic?

I think spellcrafting is a bad idea in general and would make the classes very stale. Even if they limited within the skills within the classes trees you can make enough combinations and buffs/debuffs within any role making all classes simillar with different visuals and passives ofc.

Nah. Don't worry. Even if it would be implemented, it would have very bland and mostly boring effects. Every existing spellcrafting in every game is like this. Here it would be even more bland if you'd consider the old videos and MMORPG nature of the game. All really interesting and strong effects would still be in class and other skill-lines.

Ertosi

So many BiS'ers here who only want the one thing that's "best", then complain about only having that one choice. The game's not causing that issue, it's caused by your self-imposed measuring sticks.

That flawed logic could be used against any new mechanic.

No, Spellcrafting would not make classes obsolete. But I'm certain the BiS meta will still crunch their numbers and declare one spell the winner, ignoring all of the other choices it would bring to the game.

Bakkagami

Tasear wrote: »

I believe ideally it will open up classes to new possibilities to fix a lot of issues we have in game.

*Sovle - Not enough stamina Skills
* Solve - Everyone has the same skills on bars
*Overland Content is boring - Replayablity in Old zones (looking for tablets to spells)
* Add more individual playstyle

In regards to balance, my suggestion just make variations on spells with different duration, ranges, and strengths. The issues with balance come from it being to easy for everyone to have everything at optimal level also no variations.

@ZOS_RobGarrett

Spell crafting will probably not fix those or even make the issue worse.

• problem: Class identity will likely take a notable hit. Even things like classes being better than others at single target vs AoE or Burst healing vs Sustained healing will take a hit if spell-crafting is implemented anything like whats been mentioned before
• problem: Everyone has the same skills on bars. I would argue that spell-crafting will just exacerbate the problem by erasing what few limitations are differentiating each class now. The problem with enabling all classes to perform well in all roles is that skill decisions become role-based so healers will run the same skills as healers, dd's as other dd's, and tanks as other tanks. Adding a spell-crafting system will increase the overall pool of skills but not change anything in the decision-making process.
• problem: overland content is boring - spell-crafting won't change the fact that overland is boring any more than new mats from jewelry crafting did. In all honesty, ESO has the most bland PvE/ world mechanics/enemy AI of any mmo I've played. Which is sad because one would think having the combat system would give more opportunities for interesting mechanics than games using tab targeted / cooldown timers.

What it boils down to is if you keep giving everyone what they don't have, you'll eventually end up in a situation where everyone has everything so classes might LOOK unique but they don't FEEL unique to play. see RIFT for how that ends up.

AlboMalefica

I always thought that spell crafting would become a skill line, that the 5 moves, passives & ulti would unlock once you’ve learned/researched them. Then you could morph them once they’ve levelled up and learnt also. This maybe complicated but I thought it was the best way to add it and would therefore compliment your class/weapon skill lines

mustangmorgan31

Turelus wrote: »

As others have said the way it was implemented it wouldn't impact classes that much. My biggest issue with the idea of spell crafting system is I don't think it will be very interesting for very long, once you have all the "parts" someone will figure out the best combinations for role and builds and everyone will just make those and use them.

ESO in its current state doesn't offer gameplay which requires interesting changes or mixes to spells, just best heals/damage for rotations. If we had elemental defences which were meaningful or CC which was needed in fights it might be more interesting to have a customised spell system.

If ZOS ever goes forward with spell crafting then I think Tyranny (Isometric RPG) should be mandatory playing for them to experience the spell crafting in another system.

Agreed. Once the OP skill is found, everyone will get it and it will be just like BIS gear and there will be no diversity what so ever.

Masel

Feric51 wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

You mean kinda how they're about to make races not relevant?

Okay, that may be a bit cynical, but when anytime you homogenize something it tends to take any individuality away.

What tells you racesa re homgenized? The point of these changes is to give them UNIQUE FLAVOUR, not to streamline them all.

JamilaRaj

I doubt spellcrafting will make classes obsolete. See, that would make it very hard to drive expansion sales with new, expansion exclusive classes.

Unless, of course, they paywall spellcrafting ingredients or something.


EDIT: hypothetically. Spellcrafting has been touted since perhaps even before the launch, so by now it is vaporware.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Spellcrafting is a dead horse

Feric51

Masel wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

No... why would they design a system that makes all classes not relevant?

You mean kinda how they're about to make races not relevant?

Okay, that may be a bit cynical, but when anytime you homogenize something it tends to take any individuality away.

What tells you racesa re homgenized? The point of these changes is to give them UNIQUE FLAVOUR, not to streamline them all.

I'll preface my following comments by stating that everything I have is just an assumption, and I hope your comment reflects what you've actually been privy to in the class rep meetings and are simply stating what you can without violating the NDA, but anyway....

According to Rob's original post in November (which is all us non-reps have to go on) he stated:

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

• When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role.
  
• The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.
• Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up.
• The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

I'm simply going off past precedents where nearly every time something, be it gear or class, has been seen as "overperforming" and therefore setting itself apart from others, it has been "balanced" so that it is more on par with everything else. That whole saying about "when everything is special, then nothing is" is pretty much text book definition of homogenization.

In Rob's statement I underlined a few key phrases followed by my extrapolation.

• "Multiple effective options" - you'll see no visible advantage for choosing one race over several others for certain roles
• "more equalized" - pretty straight forward here, combat power will be brought closer together (aka homogenous) between the races
• "where possible" - eh, they're going to give it the 'ol college try' to maintain the uniqueness, but that statement is pretty contradictory to the other two

Now look... I'm not trying to be negative Nancy, and none of this is directed at you personally @Masel. In fact, I commend the efforts you and the other reps are doing! I just have been given sour grapes repeatedly over the last year or two from ZOS when it comes to "balancing" that I have a hard time being optimistic that I'll be getting served cake, and able to eat it too, with these impending changes.

If they release their plans for racial changes and it blows my assumptions out of the water (in a good way) then I'll be more than happy to come back here and eat crow, but until then........

codestripper

Pffff classes are already obsolete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4E9NYVwibg

Kuramas9tails

Class skill lines: 3
Other skill lines: 20+ (that anyone can access regardless of class)



How is it NOT feeling that way already?

_Ahala_

Nope... spell crafting will give more options, but not the same options provided by class skills

PathwayM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/452514/an-idea-of-how-spellcrafting-could-be-implemented

My idea in the thread above should avoid it from affecting classes much at all.

validifyedneb18_ESO

hopefully we get it, and hopefully yes.

Classes are dumb, there aren't any classes in other ES games, noone wanted them at launch, any class can "Play any role", so why do they even exist?

Why do I have to roll a DK if I want a fire mage, a Sorc if I want a lightning mage, a Warden if I want to be a frost mage, but I can equip any staff any armor on any class? Just design inconsistency probably because "MMOs need classes, cuz wow has classes" or something.