Spending magicka to break free in all LIGHT ARMOR

StarOfElyon

I'm going to be discussing hard CCs here. I mean the kind that completely immobilizes your character or controls them until you can break free. Forcing a magicka-light armor build to constantly rely on stamina to break free from CC abuse puts them at a serious disadvantage. They don't have the resistance or the health to endure constant CCs. Since the passives for light armor as they exist do nothing to effectively counter players who overuse CC, how about giving light armor a passive that pays the stamina cost in magicka. That way, the ground would be a little more level. This passive would work more efficiently depending on the number of light armor pieces worn. So a character wearing pieces of light armor in all available slots would have their stamina cost completely paid in magicka. While a person wearing only 4 or 5 pieces would only have like a very small percentage of break free cost paid in magicka, if any at all. Medium and heavy armor comes with the benefits of stamina or health increases, so a character shouldn't be able to take advantage of the passive unless they are fully clad in light armor. This is something that has to happen for light armor to remain viable.

_Ahala_

Stam abilities are 15% cheaper than mag as they rely on stam for skills, dodge, and block... If mag subclasses are made to rely on mag for break free then a cost reduction to all mag abilities (10%?) would be in order

Koolio

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Stam abilities are 15% cheaper than mag as they rely on stam for skills, dodge, and block... If mag subclasses are made to rely on mag for break free then a cost reduction to all mag abilities (10%?) would be in order

Or you can use Ele Drain to have essentially the same sustain.

Stam classes dont get minor stamina steal

ccmedaddy

Be an Argonian and all of your pains will go away. 🙏

SugaComa

I actually agree with this ... But I would do it as percentages ... I would do it as simply when 5 pieces worn level 1 breakfree costs from stamina negated 50% by magicka cost, level 2 breakfree cost from stamina is nagated 100% by magicka.

I also think

That speed should be set to 100% and for each item added a percentage is deducted

Light deducts 1%
Medium deducts 3%
Heavy deducts 5%

And jumping should cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge

StarOfElyon

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Be an Argonians and all of your pains will go away. 🙏

I want to be a high elf and the bane of vampires and all that go bump in the night! >:|

_Ahala_

Koolio wrote: »

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Stam abilities are 15% cheaper than mag as they rely on stam for skills, dodge, and block... If mag subclasses are made to rely on mag for break free then a cost reduction to all mag abilities (10%?) would be in order

Or you can use Ele Drain to have essentially the same sustain.

Stam classes dont get minor stamina steal

That’s actually a good point

StarOfElyon

I think sustain shouldn't be too much of an issue since staffs have ways of restoring magicka. Stamina is the sore spot and people know that light armor magicka users are easy kills using CC. If it wasn't so effective, they wouldn't use CC so much. So that tells you all you need to know about the supposed passives light armor users get against CC. Paying the break free cost in magicka would give us more of a fighting chance. But we still need shields that don't have to be recast every six seconds. The Templar's rune should be all they need.

frostz417

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Be an Argonian and all of your pains will go away. 🙏

Yea until they get nerfed to the ground come the patch notes for update 21 and their big “racial passive adjustments”
😂😂😂😂😂

StarOfElyon

SWEET CHRISTMAS!!! Some people can't play without using roots or something every couple of seconds!!!!!!!!!! This crap is making the game unbearable!!

bardx86

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'm going to be discussing hard CCs here. I mean the kind that completely immobilizes your character or controls them until you can break free. Forcing a magicka-light armor build to constantly rely on stamina to break free from CC abuse puts them at a serious disadvantage. They don't have the resistance or the health to endure constant CCs. Since the passives for light armor as they exist do nothing to effectively counter players who overuse CC, how about giving light armor a passive that pays the stamina cost in magicka. That way, the ground would be a little more level. This passive would work more efficiently depending on the number of light armor pieces worn. So a character wearing pieces of light armor in all available slots would have their stamina cost completely paid in magicka. While a person wearing only 4 or 5 pieces would only have like a very small percentage of break free cost paid in magicka, if any at all. Medium and heavy armor comes with the benefits of stamina or health increases, so a character shouldn't be able to take advantage of the passive unless they are fully clad in light armor. This is something that has to happen for light armor to remain viable.

Make break free use what ever resource the CC came from. Watch stamina class freak out.

jcm2606

SugaComa wrote: »

I also think

That speed should be set to 100% and for each item added a percentage is deducted

Light deducts 1%
Medium deducts 3%
Heavy deducts 5%

And jumping should cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge

So many things wrong with this.

1. This isn't Skyrim, this is ESO. Armour weights are not as clean-cut as "light offers better movement speed at the cost of mitigation, medium offers a balance of both, heavy offers better mitigation at the cost of movement speed". Each armour weight has their own unique approaches to defense. Light has defense through damage shields (the nerfs are irrelevant, whether they're effective is another discussion, and bringing up nerfs as justification for doing what you suggest is blatant crusading against other options for defense because your's got nerfed), medium has defense through mobility, heavy has defense through mitigation and self-sustain. You can't just do a blanket approach to defense like this, because the weights aren't set up in a way to justify a blanket approach.

2. As an extension to 1, you're directly nerfing medium's primary form of defense. The entire point of running medium is to be hard to catch. What point is there in medium when light offers considerably better movement speed? (In your own words, this reduction stacks, so 5 medium equates to a 15% snare, 7 to a 21% snare.)

3. This is such a clunky and ill-thought approach to balance that it almost passes as Zenimax Balance.

4. Speed isn't even an issue now that Zenimax has nuked all forms of it. Nerfs like this are not only completely pointless, but are extremely harmful given the current snare meta. Sure, we're already halving movement speed by spamming snares every few seconds, what more could possibly happen if we slap 15-35% on top of that?! /s

5. Why should jumping cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge? Jumping literally serves no purpose other than to annoy your opponent. Roll dodge can force some abilities to miss, bolsters your mobility, makes it harder to hit you, and breaks roots and snares. The two are in no way comparable.

Jabbs_Giggity

jcm2606 wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

I also think

That speed should be set to 100% and for each item added a percentage is deducted

Light deducts 1%
Medium deducts 3%
Heavy deducts 5%

And jumping should cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge

So many things wrong with this.

1. This isn't Skyrim, this is ESO. Armour weights are not as clean-cut as "light offers better movement speed at the cost of mitigation, medium offers a balance of both, heavy offers better mitigation at the cost of movement speed". Each armour weight has their own unique approaches to defense. Light has defense through damage shields (the nerfs are irrelevant, whether they're effective is another discussion, and bringing up nerfs as justification for doing what you suggest is blatant crusading against other options for defense because your's got nerfed), medium has defense through mobility, heavy has defense through mitigation and self-sustain. You can't just do a blanket approach to defense like this, because the weights aren't set up in a way to justify a blanket approach.

2. As an extension to 1, you're directly nerfing medium's primary form of defense. The entire point of running medium is to be hard to catch. What point is there in medium when light offers considerably better movement speed? (In your own words, this reduction stacks, so 5 medium equates to a 15% snare, 7 to a 21% snare.)

3. This is such a clunky and ill-thought approach to balance that it almost passes as Zenimax Balance.

4. Speed isn't even an issue now that Zenimax has nuked all forms of it. Nerfs like this are not only completely pointless, but are extremely harmful given the current snare meta. Sure, we're already halving movement speed by spamming snares every few seconds, what more could possibly happen if we slap 15-35% on top of that?! /s

5. Why should jumping cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge? Jumping literally serves no purpose other than to annoy your opponent. Roll dodge can force some abilities to miss, bolsters your mobility, makes it harder to hit you, and breaks roots and snares. The two are in no way comparable.

@jcm2606
1. WRONG Light Armor offers [one shield, Annulment, and it's garbage. All other shields are class-based (DK and Sorc) and/or weapon based - Resto Staff. No one said this is Skyrim, but Heavy armor translates to literal heavy weighted armor...and so on. Medium has no movement passives, other than increase to speed while sprinting. Heavy is Meta; Heavy users can run fast, deal high burst damage, mitigate more damage and heal for more = not at all unbalanced *Sarcasm.

2. WRONG Not an extension of point 1 because it is irrelevant to Point 1's argument. Adding a slight debuff to movement speed to a "balanced" armor rating is not directly hurting Medium Armor's primary defense. Medium Armor still has reduced cost to Dodge Roll and Major Evasion - reducing AOE damage 25%, thus still returning more damage mitigation than Light Armor all while giving passives to increase burst damage by 15%!

3. WRONG Not at all clunky. This is actually a decent proposal to a rework of armor unbalance issues.

4. HALF WRONG Speed is still an issue, just not as much as U20. To think a Heavy Armor Stam DK can bolt out of a fight as if Major Expedition is applied with 100% up-time is ridiculous...leaving the Mag player in Light Armor to use up all their stam sprinting to catch up and finish the fight. DK Turns around, CC, Oh No! No stamina left to break free...etc. You get the point.

5. WRONG Ugh tiring...Jumping does more than annoy your opponent. The reason experienced players are "hopping" is to negate their opponents targeting capabilities. An experienced player knows that hopping while running their rotation will cause their opponent to lose target, thus not being able to cast skills = no incoming damage. Although, I would say that a 50% cost of Roll-Dodge for "Jumping" is way too much; I would suggest 10% cost while in combat only.

*Edited for correct tag of OP to quoted.

StarOfElyon

I like the light armor shield because it absorbs magicka up to three times, the problem is that it's a second slot filled for "shields" and it's an extra cast to add to the rotation that only adds six seconds so it has to be recast again and again in the heat of battle. There are other useful things to add to that slot, like cleanses or buffs to movement speed. There's no more space on my bars for a second shield, even if it's needed.

Jabbs_Giggity

Honestly, I think that shields should be worked as follows:
Percent based on Max Magicka with no timer but cannot recast until shield is depleted. Annulment should be reworked as flat damage mitigation with magicka restore.
Major Expedition can easily be achieved by the Psijic skill line skill for Magicka players, but the buff should last 6-10 seconds. This time should apply to all Major Exedition skills except for Rapid Maneuver due to being removed when casting skills.

Beardimus

I'm all for CC or at least 50% of CCs using magika to break free so i can stop needing to be so hybrid on a magika build...tri pots, purple food, tri enchants, shackle, etc etc all common place

SugaComa

jcm2606 wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

I also think

That speed should be set to 100% and for each item added a percentage is deducted

Light deducts 1%
Medium deducts 3%
Heavy deducts 5%

And jumping should cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge

So many things wrong with this.

1. This isn't Skyrim, this is ESO. Armour weights are not as clean-cut as "light offers better movement speed at the cost of mitigation, medium offers a balance of both, heavy offers better mitigation at the cost of movement speed". Each armour weight has their own unique approaches to defense. Light has defense through damage shields (the nerfs are irrelevant, whether they're effective is another discussion, and bringing up nerfs as justification for doing what you suggest is blatant crusading against other options for defense because your's got nerfed), medium has defense through mobility, heavy has defense through mitigation and self-sustain. You can't just do a blanket approach to defense like this, because the weights aren't set up in a way to justify a blanket approach.

2. As an extension to 1, you're directly nerfing medium's primary form of defense. The entire point of running medium is to be hard to catch. What point is there in medium when light offers considerably better movement speed? (In your own words, this reduction stacks, so 5 medium equates to a 15% snare, 7 to a 21% snare.)

3. This is such a clunky and ill-thought approach to balance that it almost passes as Zenimax Balance.

4. Speed isn't even an issue now that Zenimax has nuked all forms of it. Nerfs like this are not only completely pointless, but are extremely harmful given the current snare meta. Sure, we're already halving movement speed by spamming snares every few seconds, what more could possibly happen if we slap 15-35% on top of that?! /s

5. Why should jumping cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge? Jumping literally serves no purpose other than to annoy your opponent. Roll dodge can force some abilities to miss, bolsters your mobility, makes it harder to hit you, and breaks roots and snares. The two are in no way comparable.

Actually my idea would make medium better for movement

The passives would add in an increased speed off setting most of the speed reduction bringing that original speed back up to 100% the aim is to stop enabling heavy armour users.

I get the point about damage mitigation but my point was aimed at speed not damage mitigation ... I also know this isn't ESO ... My idea actually stems from an old third person online shooter called socom

bardx86

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm all for CC or at least 50% of CCs using magika to break free so i can stop needing to be so hybrid on a magika build...tri pots, purple food, tri enchants, shackle, etc etc all common place

Yup just make the CC break use the resource from which the CC came. If you get rune caged it would require magicka, something like that.

Edziu

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm all for CC or at least 50% of CCs using magika to break free so i can stop needing to be so hybrid on a magika build...tri pots, purple food, tri enchants, shackle, etc etc all common place

Yup just make the CC break use the resource from which the CC came. If you get rune caged it would require magicka, something like that.

and here we will go where wills tart qq of stamina players which dont have much magica because they dont need that much but just use very often to utility and to this most of hard cc in combat are magica cost abilities as most of them are just class cc skills

ongoing wheel

StarOfElyon

Edziu wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm all for CC or at least 50% of CCs using magika to break free so i can stop needing to be so hybrid on a magika build...tri pots, purple food, tri enchants, shackle, etc etc all common place

Yup just make the CC break use the resource from which the CC came. If you get rune caged it would require magicka, something like that.

and here we will go where wills tart qq of stamina players which dont have much magica because they dont need that much but just use very often to utility and to this most of hard cc in combat are magica cost abilities as most of them are just class cc skills

ongoing wheel

I think that would indeed continue the vicious cycle. Which is why I'm proposing as a benefit to wearing full body light armor, the ability to translate the stamina cost of breaking free into magicka cost. That way we're all on equal footing.

Jabbs_Giggity

SugaComa wrote: »

Actually my idea would make medium better for movement

The passives would add in an increased speed off setting most of the speed reduction bringing that original speed back up to 100% the aim is to stop enabling heavy armour users.

I get the point about damage mitigation but my point was aimed at speed not damage mitigation ... I also know this isn't ESO ... My idea actually stems from an old third person online shooter called socom

I miss tagged you @SugaComa and edited my response to tag correct OP of thread quote.

ToRelax

So do ult cc'd then cost ult to break out of? What about proc sets? Vamp feeding? NPC cc's?

StarOfElyon

All CC's tax stamina as far as I know. So it would just be turning it into magicka as a benefit of wearing all light armor. Right now, if ZOS does not fix this, light armor will be a death sentence. How's that for balance?

StarOfElyon

I just got CCd three consecutive times in battlegrounds. I don't think I even went 10 seconds between them. Good gravy.

heavier

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

I also think

That speed should be set to 100% and for each item added a percentage is deducted

Light deducts 1%
Medium deducts 3%
Heavy deducts 5%

And jumping should cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge

So many things wrong with this.

1. This isn't Skyrim, this is ESO. Armour weights are not as clean-cut as "light offers better movement speed at the cost of mitigation, medium offers a balance of both, heavy offers better mitigation at the cost of movement speed". Each armour weight has their own unique approaches to defense. Light has defense through damage shields (the nerfs are irrelevant, whether they're effective is another discussion, and bringing up nerfs as justification for doing what you suggest is blatant crusading against other options for defense because your's got nerfed), medium has defense through mobility, heavy has defense through mitigation and self-sustain. You can't just do a blanket approach to defense like this, because the weights aren't set up in a way to justify a blanket approach.

2. As an extension to 1, you're directly nerfing medium's primary form of defense. The entire point of running medium is to be hard to catch. What point is there in medium when light offers considerably better movement speed? (In your own words, this reduction stacks, so 5 medium equates to a 15% snare, 7 to a 21% snare.)

3. This is such a clunky and ill-thought approach to balance that it almost passes as Zenimax Balance.

4. Speed isn't even an issue now that Zenimax has nuked all forms of it. Nerfs like this are not only completely pointless, but are extremely harmful given the current snare meta. Sure, we're already halving movement speed by spamming snares every few seconds, what more could possibly happen if we slap 15-35% on top of that?! /s

5. Why should jumping cost stamina equal to that of a roll dodge? Jumping literally serves no purpose other than to annoy your opponent. Roll dodge can force some abilities to miss, bolsters your mobility, makes it harder to hit you, and breaks roots and snares. The two are in no way comparable.

@jcm2606
1. WRONG Light Armor offers [one shield, Annulment, and it's garbage. All other shields are class-based (DK and Sorc) and/or weapon based - Resto Staff. No one said this is Skyrim, but Heavy armor translates to literal heavy weighted armor...and so on. Medium has no movement passives, other than increase to speed while sprinting. Heavy is Meta; Heavy users can run fast, deal high burst damage, mitigate more damage and heal for more = not at all unbalanced *Sarcasm.

2. WRONG Not an extension of point 1 because it is irrelevant to Point 1's argument. Adding a slight debuff to movement speed to a "balanced" armor rating is not directly hurting Medium Armor's primary defense. Medium Armor still has reduced cost to Dodge Roll and Major Evasion - reducing AOE damage 25%, thus still returning more damage mitigation than Light Armor all while giving passives to increase burst damage by 15%!

3. WRONG Not at all clunky. This is actually a decent proposal to a rework of armor unbalance issues.

4. HALF WRONG Speed is still an issue, just not as much as U20. To think a Heavy Armor Stam DK can bolt out of a fight as if Major Expedition is applied with 100% up-time is ridiculous...leaving the Mag player in Light Armor to use up all their stam sprinting to catch up and finish the fight. DK Turns around, CC, Oh No! No stamina left to break free...etc. You get the point.

5. WRONG Ugh tiring...Jumping does more than annoy your opponent. The reason experienced players are "hopping" is to negate their opponents targeting capabilities. An experienced player knows that hopping while running their rotation will cause their opponent to lose target, thus not being able to cast skills = no incoming damage. Although, I would say that a 50% cost of Roll-Dodge for "Jumping" is way too much; I would suggest 10% cost while in combat only.

*Edited for correct tag of OP to quoted.

Top speed would hardly be affected by medium armor. weight mostly affects acceleration and the overall amount of energy required to sustain a speed.
Heavy armor would likely affect top speed.

I say 1% debuff in speed per piece of medium armor is to be expected.
heavy deducting 3-5% seems like an appropriate range

what would really be fitting is a sprint cost increase for heavy. 20% increase in the cost of sprinting seems like a safe mark...

jumping costing stamina would make sense, or they could just make getting hit mid jump throw you off-balance.

heavier

StarOfElyon wrote: »

All CC's tax stamina as far as I know. So it would just be turning it into magicka as a benefit of wearing all light armor. Right now, if ZOS does not fix this, light armor will be a death sentence. How's that for balance?

a solution would be to make the invigorating trait not useless
presently it raises each regen by 9 ... completely useless
having an option to put one or two pieces Invigorating and have sustain completely taken care of would be nice.
magicka users having a small stamina pool is slightly offset by only needing to break cc and sprint* with stamina! small stamina pool should definitely be an attack surface against pure magicka builds. having invigorating be more applicable would offset many of the issues I have with sustain. perhaps it could even have a fixed base boost and an additional boost by percentage of existing regeneration so not everyone gets a massive bump to HP regen

* (there is some lightning escape skill which prolly uses magicka and is faster than sprinting in my experience)

idk

It is odd that for almost 5 years most magicka users have been able to use their survival skills and have been fine with using stamina to break free when needed. The survival skills magicka users excel at seem to be ignored in the OP.

If you want to use your main resource to break free then play stam. if you want shields, easier access to cleanses, et. al. then stick with magicka. We do not need to homogenize every single aspect of the game.

Gnozo

Actually no. Magicka users should have at least 14k stamina for things like CC or immobilize.

As a magicka user, you are already in the advantage of not using your main ressource pool for break free, dodge roll or block where a stam user needs to suffer his stamina also for break free and stuff while also relying on the same ressource for healing and dealing damage.

Its fine how it is. If you are unwilling to build for at least 14k stam, then its your fault.

Beardimus

bardx86 wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm all for CC or at least 50% of CCs using magika to break free so i can stop needing to be so hybrid on a magika build...tri pots, purple food, tri enchants, shackle, etc etc all common place

Yup just make the CC break use the resource from which the CC came. If you get rune caged it would require magicka, something like that.

Spot on.

Beardimus

Gnozo wrote: »

Actually no. Magicka users should have at least 14k stamina for things like CC or immobilize.

As a magicka user, you are already in the advantage of not using your main ressource pool for break free, dodge roll or block where a stam user needs to suffer his stamina also for break free and stuff while also relying on the same ressource for healing and dealing damage.

Its fine how it is. If you are unwilling to build for at least 14k stam, then its your fault.

What? Total opposite. I'd gladly use my main resource pool for all that,

idk

Beardimus wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Actually no. Magicka users should have at least 14k stamina for things like CC or immobilize.

As a magicka user, you are already in the advantage of not using your main ressource pool for break free, dodge roll or block where a stam user needs to suffer his stamina also for break free and stuff while also relying on the same ressource for healing and dealing damage.

Its fine how it is. If you are unwilling to build for at least 14k stam, then its your fault.

What? Total opposite. I'd gladly use my main resource pool for all that,

So surprised at logic? As the person you quoted stated, if you are unwilling to build for it then it is your fault. Very few experienced magicka users have an issue with this and it has worked fine for years, and still does. Very doubtful it will change, Have not seen anything in this thread offer a compelling reason to consider change.