Overland, Quests and Delve: Difficult problems

thiagomini

Hello there fellows. I have seen a lot of posts talking about this subject and realized I should give my own insights too. As the title predicts, I'm concerned about the difficult of solo contents, and how frustrating it is to easily beat them just by using skills and attacking mindlessly. So, I will divide the content of my post in 3 main sections: The problem itself, the consequences and Ideas to fix the issue.

The Problem

The first time I played ESO, back in 2015, I was amazed by the extensios of the maps, traveling through them with care because I didn't know how difficult the land was at that time. However, as the time passed, I realized there were no challenges at all. It became a real problema because it was no fun to simply destroy every monster and quest boss in few seconds, it doesn't feel challening nor rewarding, it really felt like a child-level game. I know there are many new players and a lots of them have some difficult facing the overland creatures and stuff, but I'm sure that when they gain a little bit more of experience they shall notice how easy and turn-off the overland and questing is.

The Consequences

I know there are a lot of people who don't care about the solo content and difficult, but I have many friends who left the game due to the lack of challenges. It doesn't feel like an adventure, like a place you have to travel with care, instead you simply go wherever you like and effortlessly kill anyone in your way. This problem ruins the immersion, and I think ZOS is losing a lot of potential players who would love to face real solo challenges.

Ideas to Fix the Problem

One way to go around the problems mentioned here is to enable veteran-mode zones, quests and delves. However, this veteran-mode could not be as dumb as simply making the enemies healthier and dealing more damage. I think there are some key aspects that can improve the challenges of the overland, for example, a real need to avoid / parry strong attacks and interrupt channeling abilities. A real turn-off to this game is, for example, when a mob use a strong attack on you, and even if you don't move a muscle to avoid the attack, it only deals little damage to you. They could improve channeling and strong attacks for the mobs so I really have to pay attention to parry and avoid those attacks. Another thing they could do is improving the Traps damage in delves, to make players aware of them and not simply walk through it mindlessly. Finally, I think it is of utterly importance to feel rewarded for your efforts, so these veteran-mode zones could give higher rarity gears and items.

To summarize, I , alongside many fellow players I believe, would love to see a game where your own skills really matter, where you must pay attention to the game and improve your gameplay to achieve better results and gain better rewards, instead of simply playing for a longer time.

VaranisArano

The problem with increasing the difficulty or creating "veteran" overland zones is this:

Either ZOS needs to be convinced that the effort expended to do a good job with better mobs and challenging mechanics will bring in enough $$$ in profit to make it worth it

Or ZOS will do a simplistic job, just making mobs hit harder and have more HP like Skyrim's legendary mode, in which case you might as well just debuff yourself and play the game we already have.

So, the real question I pose is: Is there enough profit to be made that ZOS can justify the effort to do "veteran" overland content right?


If the answer is no, I don't expect anything to change. Overland is aimed at new and casual players, while ZOS focuses on DLC dungeons for players who want a challenge.

idk

^^^ and considering it is probably a bad idea to promote a new zone that new players getting enticed by the ads are not able to play the zone. Hence they quit and never spend money again.

Yes, I know the counter is they have all these other zones but if they got excited to play Skyrim expansion they are going to want to play there from the start, obviously.

Further, even among current players what is considered difficult varies greatly. What you find a good difficulty level is something another player will laugh at because it is way to easy.

MaleAmazon

So, the real question I pose is: Is there enough profit to be made that ZOS can justify the effort to do "veteran" overland content right?

They don´t have to do new content. They just have to implement a debuff same way they did in Cyrodiil. Also, think of it this way - how does it benefit the game that old-timers and good players are either 1) absent from overland play, or 2) murder their way through everything leaving newer players in the dust since the newer players don´t get to fight bosses etc when those bosses regularly get disintegrated by CP810s?

Overland is aimed at new and casual players, while ZOS focuses on DLC dungeons for players who want a challenge.

That this is repeated doesn´t really make it true, anymore than "Auridon is aimed only at lvl 5-15 players" - which was true at launch. Things change. Yes, the normal-veteran dungeon modes (which was also not in the game in the same way at launch, mind you) are there for a harder challenge for those who seek it.

But cutting out a portion of the potential continued subscribers / other customers by only allowing very easy mode for major DLC content is not only idiotic from a game design perspective, but from a marketing perspective.

Here´s a kicker for those who don´t like the idea of a 'veteran battle spirit for questing'. It is already in the game. It is just that it works to buff you up to CP160. It is called One Tamriel. And it was the best thing to happen to ESO. Now I can at least get XP for doing sidequests in Stonefalls. I can go back to Grahtwood and other zones I haven´t fully explored without quests literally being greyed out. It does however have the side effect of you never being able to take on content above your level. And ok, fine, personally I think RPGs could do away with traditional levelling.

Doing away with all challenge is another thing.

Anyway what needs to be said has already been said. But I think it is worth repeating since, yes, there is a chance ZOS will listen, if they haven´t already.

zaria

idk wrote: »

^^^ and considering it is probably a bad idea to promote a new zone that new players getting enticed by the ads are not able to play the zone. Hence they quit and never spend money again.

Yes, I know the counter is they have all these other zones but if they got excited to play Skyrim expansion they are going to want to play there from the start, obviously.

Further, even among current players what is considered difficult varies greatly. What you find a good difficulty level is something another player will laugh at because it is way to easy.

This, and yes its an bad idea to stuff new players into new zones with harder enemies.
on the other hand even if you just quest you will be cp160 at the end of gold.
Assume that all who enter DLC zones is cp160 and have cp160 gear.
Current craglorn is nice I feel.

And yes starting in Morrowind was an idea, not that should also be part of the intro quests for old players you loose all your gear but get it back at the senses office or at break out. That could also be an nice idea for an dlc quest line.

Everstorm

I would be happy if they got rid of forced grouping mechanics in dungeons, at least on normal setting, so that I actually have places to go when I want to challenge myself. Fought myself into a few dlc dungeons, having a good time, holding my own, killed a couple of bosses, just to find myself unavoidably pinned to the ground again.

zaria

Everstorm wrote: »

I would be happy if they got rid of forced grouping mechanics in dungeons, at least on normal setting, so that I actually have places to go when I want to challenge myself. Fought myself into a few dlc dungeons, having a good time, holding my own, killed a couple of bosses, just to find myself unavoidably pinned to the ground again.

You can enter dungeons from overland alone. Just be sure to set your default difficulty level.
A few dungeons has mechanisms who require groups. Fungal 2, and direfrost come to mind also ICP. But as they are group dungeons with various mechanics some will require groups.

Tandor

thiagomini wrote: »

To summarize, I , alongside many fellow players I believe, would love to see a game where your own skills really matter, where you must pay attention to the game and improve your gameplay to achieve better results and gain better rewards, instead of simply playing for a longer time.

That game already already exists in the form of ESO, it's just that overland content is mainly for leveling up through quests and the dungeons, trials, and PvP exist to provide the kind of gameplay you describe, i.e. where skills matter and you need to improve your gameplay.

kalimar44

Coming from games like old Everquest, Ultima online, Asherons call, and so on I'm happy with ESO difficulties. I do not have the time today being married with kids to play MMOs that requires me to have to group up with players to do everything. Anyone that's played pre 2000 Everquest knows what I'm talking about. With ESO I can log in and actually accomplish something in under a hour. Anyways this is just my opinion. 😀

Tandor

kalimar44 wrote: »

Coming from games like old Everquest, Ultima online, Asherons call, and so on I'm happy with ESO difficulties. I do not have the time today being married with kids to play MMOs that requires me to have to group up with players to do everything. Anyone that's played pre 2000 Everquest knows what I'm talking about. With ESO I can log in and actually accomplish something in under a hour. Anyways this is just my opinion. 😀

Mine too.

Mind you, I'd love to see the explosion that would occur here if ZOS decided to add more challenge to the game by introducing corpse runs with everything left on the corpse, several weeks to gain a level which is then lost when you die, and "train to zone". I'm afraid there will never be another EQ, more's the pity !

Everstorm

zaria wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

I would be happy if they got rid of forced grouping mechanics in dungeons, at least on normal setting, so that I actually have places to go when I want to challenge myself. Fought myself into a few dlc dungeons, having a good time, holding my own, killed a couple of bosses, just to find myself unavoidably pinned to the ground again.

You can enter dungeons from overland alone. Just be sure to set your default difficulty level.
A few dungeons has mechanisms who require groups. Fungal 2, and direfrost come to mind also ICP. But as they are group dungeons with various mechanics some will require groups.

When I say I solo bosses in dlc dungeons you may conclude I don't need tips on the very basics of how dungeons work. But here's one for you: the pressure plates in Direfrost can be circumvented.

idk

zaria wrote: »

idk wrote: »

^^^ and considering it is probably a bad idea to promote a new zone that new players getting enticed by the ads are not able to play the zone. Hence they quit and never spend money again.

Yes, I know the counter is they have all these other zones but if they got excited to play Skyrim expansion they are going to want to play there from the start, obviously.

Further, even among current players what is considered difficult varies greatly. What you find a good difficulty level is something another player will laugh at because it is way to easy.

This, and yes its an bad idea to stuff new players into new zones with harder enemies.
on the other hand even if you just quest you will be cp160 at the end of gold.
Assume that all who enter DLC zones is cp160 and have cp160 gear.
Current craglorn is nice I feel.

And yes starting in Morrowind was an idea, not that should also be part of the intro quests for old players you loose all your gear but get it back at the senses office or at break out. That could also be an nice idea for an dlc quest line.

It is irrelevant how fast a new player can get to gold. Beside Zos setting the standard in 1T that we can quest in every zone at any time and making Craglorn easy as pie to fit this new world it is a huge and pretty baseless assumption that all who enter DLC zones are CP160, let alone have CP160 gear.

Cannot base things on assumptions that are clearly without merit.

However you do demonstrate one things nicely when you say Craglorn has a nice feel. I take it you mean the challenge is appropriate in your mind. Many of us thing Craglorn is easy as pie, even solo. That would prove correct my final point you quoted.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Yeah the entire game kinda feels like a "mush" from within which you can find entertaining content if you force yourself to log on at the start to go look for it. The game has been re-designed so many times, they could really do with a far stronger vision for the world and go in and overhaul it, but they wont, because its admittedly expensive and likely wont yield profit enough to justify the work.

For example a leveled world but where areas get harder and harder forcing you to gear up and get good? Or world content that is generally more engaging and less of a tick-the-boxes grind?

The leveling experience feels awful, I get PTSD thinking about having to re-grind sky shards or PDs AGAIN for a new alts skillpoints, and it rewards little feel of actually "leveling". The true feeling is progression is at CP160 when you progressively start to buy, upgrade and farm better and better gear and work towards a final "build". Leveling should honestly be like 10 levels where you very quickly gain new skills so you arent just dumped with them all at once.

The One Tamriel update in particular I think saw them apply a (still good, but) blanket change to the world without changing the world to fit the new way it worked.

Sylvermynx

Tandor wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

Coming from games like old Everquest, Ultima online, Asherons call, and so on I'm happy with ESO difficulties. I do not have the time today being married with kids to play MMOs that requires me to have to group up with players to do everything. Anyone that's played pre 2000 Everquest knows what I'm talking about. With ESO I can log in and actually accomplish something in under a hour. Anyways this is just my opinion. 😀

Mine too.

Mind you, I'd love to see the explosion that would occur here if ZOS decided to add more challenge to the game by introducing corpse runs with everything left on the corpse, several weeks to gain a level which is then lost when you die, and "train to zone". I'm afraid there will never be another EQ, more's the pity !

Exactly why, when I tried EQ I left all but immediately. NOT my idea of fun. No way shape form or fashion is that fun for me.

Fun comes in many different flavors however. The fact that in all my years of game playing (since 1976 , if you count the pencil and paper AD&D scenarios I ran for my daughter and her jr high friends), you're the only person I've ever known who equates that EQ stuff with fun proves the axiom: fun is an each to her own thing.

daemonios

What OP describes looks to me quite similar to how VR zones were pre-One Tamriel and Champion Points: when you finished your alliance and moved on to Cadwell's Silver, overland enemies could feel a bit punishing if you tried to rush it, and you had to block/dodge stuff if you wanted to stay alive.

Battle leveling and the power creep that came with Champion Points make going back *very* hard. Basically ZOS made it so everyone feels like they're similarly powered. To increase the difficulty for CP-capped players they would either have to significantly buff lower-level players and risk horrible imbalance, or make the game very punishing for them.

There have been rumours about the next chapter, including some speculation that there might be no-PvP/all-PvP versions of Tamriel, a bit like Trammel and Felucca in UO. If ZOS ever do implement different rule-set servers, one possibility would be to have a higher-difficulty server. Maybe an actual server wouldn't even be needed and ZOS could do it on their megaserver platform, e.g. by creating zone instances with different rules. But I don't think we'll see much in the way of radical changes. ESO is running at cruise speed, and as long as the money keeps rolling in ZOS will keep pushing crown store stuff and little else.

Taleof2Cities

We will never know the statistic (percentage) of players who have never completed (or completed a very small portion) of the current veteran content in the game ... but are still calling for "veteran" overland content.

Sylvermynx

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

We will never know the statistic (percentage) of players who have never completed (or completed a very small portion) of the current veteran content in the game ... but are still calling for "veteran" overland content.

Yah. Kind of sad you can't extrapolate stats - from somewhere.

dazee

Overland difficulty is mostly fine. Another craglorn would be nice I guess craglorn difficulty is slightly harder and the group bosses are impossible to solo for most players. Can 2 man them with 2 fairly competent players usually though.

validifyedneb18_ESO

dazee wrote: »

Overland difficulty is mostly fine. Another craglorn would be nice I guess craglorn difficulty is slightly harder and the group bosses are impossible to solo for most players. Can 2 man them with 2 fairly competent players usually though.

if by "mostly fine" you mean posses 0 danger or challenge to a max gear player? Heck even world bosses are just big old meat shields it takes an extra few seconds more to kill.

dazee

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Overland difficulty is mostly fine. Another craglorn would be nice I guess craglorn difficulty is slightly harder and the group bosses are impossible to solo for most players. Can 2 man them with 2 fairly competent players usually though.

if by "mostly fine" you mean posses 0 danger or challenge to a max gear player? Heck even world bosses are just big old meat shields it takes an extra few seconds more to kill.

To a max geared/CP player is the point. you do realize if it was different, new players would quit and the game would die a slow death? you're not NEARLY as powerful when you start playing with no CP and white basic gear.

validifyedneb18_ESO

dazee wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Overland difficulty is mostly fine. Another craglorn would be nice I guess craglorn difficulty is slightly harder and the group bosses are impossible to solo for most players. Can 2 man them with 2 fairly competent players usually though.

if by "mostly fine" you mean posses 0 danger or challenge to a max gear player? Heck even world bosses are just big old meat shields it takes an extra few seconds more to kill.

To a max geared/CP player is the point. you do realize if it was different, new players would quit and the game would die a slow death? you're not NEARLY as powerful when you start playing with no CP and white basic gear.

yeah, thats why games have progression. Does Zelda start with you fighting Gannon, or Mario start with you already in Bowsers layer? The question is how ZOS *should* be doing this layered difficulty even in a game where everything is scaled to the same base level. Because gear is a thing.

Sylvermynx

dazee wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Overland difficulty is mostly fine. Another craglorn would be nice I guess craglorn difficulty is slightly harder and the group bosses are impossible to solo for most players. Can 2 man them with 2 fairly competent players usually though.

if by "mostly fine" you mean posses 0 danger or challenge to a max gear player? Heck even world bosses are just big old meat shields it takes an extra few seconds more to kill.

To a max geared/CP player is the point. you do realize if it was different, new players would quit and the game would die a slow death? you're not NEARLY as powerful when you start playing with no CP and white basic gear.

I don't know about other new players.... Are they new to MMOs entirely? Are they new to this genre specifically? Are they new to games online totally?

Each "new" thing isn't the same at all. And some of us wind up balancing a lot of the "other stuff" (like 2000 ms ping - which wasn't a problem in WoW or RIFT - but combat is MATERIALLY different here from the other MMOS I played.

Not a bad thing, just that you have to balance it yourself as to what you're expecting from the game, and how you manage the.... fallout.... *rolls eyes* nah, I didn't really mean the pun It.... just.... happened.....