Can we introduce counter play for chains?

IAVITNI

Cannot be dodged or blocked and snares. It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players. Numbers advantage is already enough, at least allow players to dodge the skill.

Wuuffyy

Yea agreed. It’s so troll Tbh. But at the same time this is a consequence of being in a smaller group or being solo in Cyro so it’s also our faults for that.

Sufficient counterplay would be just making it blockable (if it isn’t already).

IAVITNI

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Yea agreed. It’s so troll Tbh. But at the same time this is a consequence of being in a smaller group or being solo in Cyro so it’s also our faults for that.

Sufficient counterplay would be just making it blockable (if it isn’t already).

It isn't unblockable nor is it dodge able.

It also applies a snare, so the "counter" of LoS is soft countered by the snare and the morph that still chains people back refunds the full cost whereas snare removals are relatively costly.

And while it is our fault for running alone, lack of numbers is disadvantage on its own. Introducing a zero counterplay skill is over the top.

lucky_Sage

Chains that pulls is blockable but the gapcloser morph is like any other gap closer

NBrookus

Blocking and trying to get away are not really compatible, so it's not an effective counter. Dodge is only going to work for stamina roller builds because it's not going to be ONE chain, they will be spamming them.

Aside from niche speed builds, the only class likely to escape a zerg chasing them on open terrain is nightblade. Maybe a sorc if they are topped off on resources.

Chains/Leash is annoying but essential in PVE; it's not going anywhere.

Savos_Saren

The unreliability of chains is already a factor as well. Chains won’t work if you’re just slightly higher or lower than the DK. Empowering chains is also limited to 22 meters and can be “missed” (quite often i might add).

del9

This skill is in a very problematic place in PVP. It needs to be dodgeable because as OP said- this skill is most used against outnumbered opponents, and at that point you are likely sprinting or roll dodging. Blocking isnt effective.

In general, the introduction of working silver leash for all classes has been horrible for pvp. It was One of the many changes that further punishes solo and outnumbered players. Zerging Chains and leash spammers are rampant, and there is no counterplay. In BGs these skills actually PUNISH you for being in a good tactical position. They must change the way chains works in pvp, or it will it remain a top Xv1 zergtrash weapon.

Chains/leash in pvp are one of the four horseman of the non-skill armageddon.

IAVITNI

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Chains that pulls is blockable but the gapcloser morph is like any other gap closer

Are you sure the chains that pull are blockable? I have the vaguest recollection of patch notes saying they were made both unblockable and undodgeable. If it it blockable than it's just a L2P issue though it is somewhat counter intuitive to block while running from a zerg.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

The unreliability of chains is already a factor as well. Chains won’t work if you’re just slightly higher or lower than the DK. Empowering chains is also limited to 22 meters and can be “missed” (quite often i might add).

Definitely an issue. I like chains as an ability as I think it has a lot of synergy with the class identity and it is really fun to use. Elevation changes have had a big effect on DKs, especially when it comes to Leap as well.

Imo they should bring back leaping onto keeps as it gives DKs a very unique roll in cyrodil. Chaining from elevations would be fine as well but chains should be more telegraphed in PvP. Maybe adding a PvP only delay (like 0.5 additional seconds) or some other indication that chains is about to fire. Alternatively they could remove the delayed CC break timing when being chained as it can become a very long CC at max range or even create unique outcomes depending on counter-play used: blocking prevents the pull, roll dodge prevents the following CC but the player is still pulled. Making chains free at this point wouldn't be that bad. Netch already sets a precedence for free skills so it's not unheard of.

driosketch

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Savos_Saren

del9 wrote: »

This skill is in a very problematic place in PVP. It needs to be dodgeable because as OP said- this skill is most used against outnumbered opponents, and at that point you are likely sprinting or roll dodging. Blocking isnt effective.

In general, the introduction of working silver leash for all classes has been horrible for pvp. It was One of the many changes that further punishes solo and outnumbered players. Zerging Chains and leash spammers are rampant, and there is no counterplay. In BGs these skills actually PUNISH you for being in a good tactical position. They must change the way chains works in pvp, or it will it remain a top Xv1 zergtrash weapon.

Chains/leash in pvp are one of the four horseman of the non-skill armageddon.

“Tactical position” of standing in the distance and spamming snipe or mage’s wrath?!?!

This is exactly why chains exist.

Savos_Saren

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

I do the same thing but with empowering chains. I actually chase down ball groups and use talons to slow them down.

Akinos

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Mistform also stops chains, i've had DK's run themselves out of magicka chain spamming me while I mist from them, only to turn and burst them down because they have no resources left to defend themselves.

driosketch

Akinos wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Mistform also stops chains, i've had DK's run themselves out of magicka chain spamming me while I mist from them, only to turn and burst them down because they have no resources left to defend themselves.

Which is also why the group I run with generally has a no chase policy. (Unless player runs in the same direction group is headed.) A lot of solo players are good enough to kite off the inexperienced and then turn it around on them.

barshemm

Skills and proc that pull are great for fighting ball groups and where positioning is giving someone an advantage. If anything they should be buffed to allow you to yank people off walls or that annoying rock at chal N instead of being limited by elevation.

Cathexis

barshemm wrote: »

Skills and proc that pull are great for fighting ball groups and where positioning is giving someone an advantage. If anything they should be buffed to allow you to yank people off walls or that annoying rock at chal N instead of being limited by elevation.

Elevation was limited on chains because people were using it to Spiderman into unburst keeps, as I understand it (because certain guards could not be chained, it would pull you to them).

IAVITNI

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

It can be used to counter blobs but it is far more effective for those blobs as well. And CC immunity isn't something that is readily available to the extent that it can effectively counter chains. The counter is momentary and chain spam will outlast CC immunity into immovable pot.

It's not real counter-play if the counterplay has a fraction of the uptime that chains does.

Akinos wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Mistform also stops chains, i've had DK's run themselves out of magicka chain spamming me while I mist from them, only to turn and burst them down because they have no resources left to defend themselves.

The morph of chains that isn't a gap closer refunds magicka if the target is not pulled. Not sure how they are running out of resources but it is not from chain spam.

Royaji

Can we understand that no matter how much we nerf all the skills numbers will always have advantage in a game with such a long TTK as ESO? If you want fair 1v1, go duel.

idk

Block and there are buffs available via potions and HA skill that prevent being pulled. Those are the counters. Pretty sure all work against chains.

PhoenixGrey

Its a zergling skill which needs to be trashed out of the game.

Xvorg

IAVITNI wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Chains that pulls is blockable but the gapcloser morph is like any other gap closer

Are you sure the chains that pull are blockable? I have the vaguest recollection of patch notes saying they were made both unblockable and undodgeable. If it it blockable than it's just a L2P issue though it is somewhat counter intuitive to block while running from a zerg.

It is blockable, otherwise it wouldn't have a refund if the objective cannot be pulled. Same happens with enemies with CC inmunity.

I cannot remember if it's dodgeable but I tend to think it is.

jcm2606

It strikes me odd that block is the counter, though, considering it's a kind of projectile in how it works. You throw the end of the chain towards the enemy, the chain lands, the chain pulls the enemy back. Wouldn't dodge be the counter?

Savos_Saren

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Its a zergling skill which needs to be trashed out of the game.

No. It’s a gap closing skill that DKs desparately need. Otherwise- Ambush, Lotis Fan, Explosive Charge, Toppling Charge, Streak, Ball of Lightning, SnB gap closers, and 2H gap closers are all zergling skills that need to be taken out of the game.

Reality check: Zergs abuse everything from gap closers, to group heals, to spamming light attacks.

Hell if a naked zerg chases down a solo player and punched him to death- you could say that fist light attacks are zergling skills.

Kadoin

I can't believe the day has come that someone is complaining about chains...really?

technohic

It sucks to be pulled into a zerg but this ability has to be way down on the list even as far as Xv1 goes.

Akinos

IAVITNI wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

It can be used to counter blobs but it is far more effective for those blobs as well. And CC immunity isn't something that is readily available to the extent that it can effectively counter chains. The counter is momentary and chain spam will outlast CC immunity into immovable pot.

It's not real counter-play if the counterplay has a fraction of the uptime that chains does.

Akinos wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Mistform also stops chains, i've had DK's run themselves out of magicka chain spamming me while I mist from them, only to turn and burst them down because they have no resources left to defend themselves.

The morph of chains that isn't a gap closer refunds magicka if the target is not pulled. Not sure how they are running out of resources but it is not from chain spam.

Oh you're right, i forgot that does refund magicka. Well either way, the dks that chain spam almost always have like 40k hp and no damage and can still be killed pretty easily.

IAVITNI

technohic wrote: »

It sucks to be pulled into a zerg but this ability has to be way down on the list even as far as Xv1 goes.

It's not so much that it's a priority. I originally made the post under the impression that it could not be blocked nor dodged. Knowing that it can be blocked I wouldn't have made a thread at all.

The fact that it slows though kind of counters the counter play for that solo player to LoS.

Again, less of a concern for even myself now that I know there is a counter, even if ineffective. Doesn't change the fact that the skill could use a tune-up, more along the lines of an update than a nerf though.

IAVITNI

Akinos wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

It can be used to counter blobs but it is far more effective for those blobs as well. And CC immunity isn't something that is readily available to the extent that it can effectively counter chains. The counter is momentary and chain spam will outlast CC immunity into immovable pot.

It's not real counter-play if the counterplay has a fraction of the uptime that chains does.

Akinos wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

It is only used by large groups to chase down solo players.

Am I the only one who uses chains as counter to blobs. You pull a player out and everyone blasts them, and the group is weaker for it. It's been a pretty good counter, but I never see many players pick up on it. The only time I'm part of a large group chasing down a single player with chains is when they are the last one alive from a group that was farming a resource, and they are making a run for it. To set up a camp. So they can come back and do it again.

I believe chain pulls are stopped by cc immunity. There's a heavy armor skill and a potion. If you see a big group and you can't mount, bolt, or cloak away, immovable pots and right angles are your best path to escape.

Mistform also stops chains, i've had DK's run themselves out of magicka chain spamming me while I mist from them, only to turn and burst them down because they have no resources left to defend themselves.

The morph of chains that isn't a gap closer refunds magicka if the target is not pulled. Not sure how they are running out of resources but it is not from chain spam.

Oh you're right, i forgot that does refund magicka. Well either way, the dks that chain spam almost always have like 40k hp and no damage and can still be killed pretty easily.

Ya but it prevents the "counter" of "just ignore" the tank. I get it. I do. I was complaining about being chased by a tank the other day because I couldn't mount. I don't see the logic in chasing someone if my health regen on a magicka build is higher than your dps. Dude solo chased me from ash to nickel. He was a non-threat but it was irritating because of how illogical the whole chase was.

I wouldn't want the skill directly nerfed, just for the counter play to be more effective.

PhoenixGrey

Savos_Saren wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Its a zergling skill which needs to be trashed out of the game.

No. It’s a gap closing skill that DKs desparately need. Otherwise- Ambush, Lotis Fan, Explosive Charge, Toppling Charge, Streak, Ball of Lightning, SnB gap closers, and 2H gap closers are all zergling skills that need to be taken out of the game.

Reality check: Zergs abuse everything from gap closers, to group heals, to spamming light attacks.

Hell if a naked zerg chases down a solo player and punched him to death- you could say that fist light attacks are zergling skills.

Anything which pulls you into a zerg is a zergling skill.

I would like to see takers if it behaved like a normal gap closer. I wouldn't even mind a buff to it then.