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Burning Embers: An alternative mDK spammable

Somewhere
Somewhere
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I have not really seen any posts about this topic, so I figured I would make one. I am not here to make suggestions about your build or anyone's build. This post is purely for informational purposes, and while I can extrapolate a bit, it's really up to you to make your own conclusions as to whether this is relevant to you and your particular build. I do have a conclusion at the very end if you wish to skip all the preamble.

Introduction

As of the Murkmire update, the DK passive World in Ruin was changed to reduce the cost of all poison abilities by 25%. Most notably, this meant that Venomous Claw would cost only around 700 stamina, prompting a build such as Masel's Claw of the Mad God to take advantage of the low cost. This is coupled with the relative uniqueness in how the game applies the DOT component of Searing Strike and its morphs. For those of you not familiar, the skill has a relatively low upfront damage, and then a DOT component that follows it which lasts 10.5 seconds. The game applies begins applying the DOT half a second after you cast the skill, so if you cast the skill you should see the first tick at .5 seconds. This is illustrated here. Due to global cooldown (GCD), you can only cast a skill every second. As a result, even if you spam Searing Strike and its morph over and over, you will always get the first tick off, which is the premise that Masel's build functions on. As we can see here, even when I use the ability over and over, half a second later the first tick for the ability goes off.

So I got to thinking, mechanically Venomous Strike and Burning Embers function identically. If a stamina DK can use this skill in lieu of some other spammable skill, is it viable for a magicka DK to do the same thing? After all magicka DK suffers from sustain problems more than any other spec than perhaps non-pet magicka Sorcerer (both are fairly abysmal terms of sustain let's be honest).

Testing Conditions

Before we get to the results I think it's important to state under the conditions I did my damage tests. I did not feel like personally wasting my own resources and so on doing dozens of damage tests, so I was on the PTS v4.2.4. Functionally the skills I used perform the same as live, so this is ultimately no difference.

Gear and bar setup (Superstar):
Hw4IogE.png

I opted to go with full Arcane instead of a combination of Bloodthirsty, as that is what I had done for the first half of my tests and I didn't feel like redoing them all. Swapping out a few or all of the Arcane traits for Bloodthirsty will definitely net you an increase in damage.

I used Molten Whip instead of Flame Lash since I cannot test the impact of Flame Lash on DPS effectively in a solo environment. Furthermore, its impact is entirely dependent on the up-time of off balance. One could mathematically figure out a DPS difference based upon the cooldown of off-balance and the cooldown on Power Lash, but that is not the topic for discussion.

Using Burning Embers instead of Molten Whip reduces our magicka drain, but we've effectively lost a DOT, and we need to replace that. The candidate I used was Destructive Touch morphed into Destructive Clench. We do not need the additional range since as a mDK we play primarily in melee range, and this increases the damage on the skill anyway. Destructive Clench allows us to take advantage of the Ancient Knowledge passive without having to use Elemental Rage for our front bar ultimate. I opted for Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate while testing for the 2% increased magicka and magicka regeneration.

All of the tests are against a 6m test dummy. I provided my own Elemental Drain, and I used Channeled Acceleration as I am more comfortable using that in my own rotation. I use a dynamic rotation reapplying my DOTs as they are falling off and for sustain I used Spell Symmetry after I reapplied my ground dots on back bar. I always began the test with a Standard of Might ready and I always dropped another Standard of Might at 20%. Starting the test with 250 ulti takes a not insignificant amount of time to generate for 10+ damage tests, hence why I didn't feel like redoing my tests with Bloodthirsty as well. Being that this is the PTS I did not have access to Vampire for the increased sustain.

Since Burning Embers has 6 ticks on the DOT component, and the first tick of that always goes off the damage we get from simply using it back to back is actually the base damage + 1/6 of the DOT component. I tested a few tooltip values and found that Burning Ember's tooltip damage to be approximately 24% lower than Molten Whip. Given that, in most of my testing, Whip makes up about 15% or so of my total damage, we should expect about 1-2% decrease in our overall DPS when using Burning Embers, and that is assuming somehow none of the other ticks from Burning Embers go off.

Results

I kept track of several metrics over the course of my tests: Magicka Drain/s, Magicka Regen/s, DPS (Damage per Second), HPS (Healing per Second), and the magicka drain of each of my skills, and the number of times I cast Spell Symmetry.

Molten Whip:

llgJWp4.jpg

Burning Embers:

4GnEcFq.jpg

A few things to note here:
  • The magicka drain due to Eruption on my Molten Whip tests is significantly lower than Burning Embers, especially on run 1, where is only drained 175 magicka. I looked over the combat report and found that I actually cast it 7 times.
  • On average the skills I kept the same had similar impact on my magicka drain, which implies that over several runs, my rotation remained relatively the same.
  • On average both setups had similar DPS, even across several runs.
  • Burning Embers' impact on my magicka drain was significantly lower than Molten Whip's. Destructive Clench has a high magicka cost, and so I lost a lot of magicka to that skill.
  • The HPS on Burning Embers tests is significantly higher, since we are casting the skill more often, and procing the heal more often. For comparison while typing this up I did a fast 3mil test with a mNB using Swallow Soul and got around 6.5k HPS.

Conclusion

In a static scenario, Burning Embers actually performed very similarly to Molten Whip. With a DPS difference of about .8% in my testing, I would say that Burning Embers is certainly a viable alternative although not necessarily better. This especially becomes true if you are looking to run a Shock enchant on your back bar instead of an Absorb Magicka enchantment and struggle with sustain issues. But remember, if you do tests yourself, the Shock enchantment provides a small uptime of Minor Vulnerability (about 50%). This will skew your results if you do not use it in both cases, since in a group or even a raid environment, you should expect a much higher uptime on Minor Vulnerability.

Burning Embers had a much higher HPS when we used it as a main spammable. This is because Burning Embers made up a larger % of our overall damage and the heal is proportionate to the damage dealt with the effect expires (which includes when we recast the ability). The heal serves more utility when we use it a spammable however, since we are effectively procing a small heal often instead of a giant heal every 10 seconds. When used a spammable the average heal for most of my runs stood at about 10k, but when we used Whip the heal averaged about 25k. Most DD will have only 15-18k health, and so that's a lot of healing that is wasted. If you have to wait 10 seconds for a heal, you're already dead (insert north star meme here). If you are concerned about your survivability in a group, using Burning Embers as your main attack may be a decent option, and it also offsets the health cost of using Spell Symmetry. This could be attractive in a situation where you might not be the healer's primary focus.

The tests done with Burning Embers certainly had lower magicka drain on average, and this is even after considering the fact that I didn't have to cast Spell Symmetry as often. If you are struggling with sustain, this could be a viable alternative. Using Burning Embers I certainly had no problem sustaining on a 26mil dummy.

All of your damage comes from damage over time effects. This is why while Burning Embers overall damage actually keeps up with Molten Whip. Any DK will tell you there are times when several of your DOTs will all fall off around the same time and you are stuck recasting blockade, eruption, and 2 other dots back to back. If you use Molten Whip, while you are recasting these other abilities the damage Whip is putting out is effectively 0. If you use Burning Embers, you still have it ticking in the background. Burning Embers will likely be the last skill you used when you recast other DOTs, so it should almost never fall off on its own. In my own testing Burning Embers had an uptime of 99%.

This continues to be useful if a boss likes to move around. Most ranged magicka DD have at least 2 ground DOTs to reapply if a boss moves: Blockade and some class based DOT such as Liquid Lightning, Twisting Path, Eruption, Winter's Revenge, and Blazing Spear. The disadvantage a melee attacker like mDK has is that it can't begin damaging again until it gets within 7m of the boss while a ranged DD can continue with their rotation. With Destructive Clench on your bar (or Reach if you really felt) you can begin reapplying that DOT as you close the gap, followed by Engulfing Flames with its shorter range, and finally continuing with Burning Embers. I have not personally tested this in a boss fight extensively, so your mileage may vary.

In my testing I used Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate since I wanted the increased max magicka and magicka regeneration. While Elemental Rage and Standard of Might are used in a similar fashion: large AoE fire based ulti that cost 250 ultimate and deal similar damage over their lifetime, Elemental Rage offers more burst damage, and so that is definitely still an option. I could also see the possibility of having Take Flight on your front bar as a burst ultimate to use on trash mobs, or for use in dungeons that you would like to close the gap quickly. In a trial I would not see this as a viable option.

Finally, and I think that this is definitely worth mentioning: since we are using Destructive Clench your tank may not always appreciate you CC'ing enemies regularly. This is a valid concern, please take this into consideration if you do choose to use Clench.

If you think I missed anything important, or notice any glaring errors in my testing or logic please let me know. I put this up simply for informational purposes, but it's not my intention to mislead anyone.
Edited by Somewhere on December 28, 2018 4:17PM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Somewhere wrote: »
    I have not really seen any posts about this topic, so I figured I would make one. I am not here to make suggestions about your build or anyone's build. This post is purely for informational purposes, and while I can extrapolate a bit, it's really up to you to make your own conclusions as to whether this is relevant to you and your particular build. I do have a conclusion at the very end if you wish to skip all the preamble.

    Introduction

    As of the Murkmire update, the DK passive World in Ruin was changed to reduce the cost of all poison abilities by 25%. Most notably, this meant that Venomous Claw would cost only around 700 stamina, prompting a build such as Masel's Claw of the Mad God to take advantage of the low cost. This is coupled with the relative uniqueness in how the game applies the DOT component of Searing Strike and its morphs. For those of you not familiar, the skill has a relatively low upfront damage, and then a DOT component that follows it which lasts 10.5 seconds. The game applies begins applying the DOT half a second after you cast the skill, so if you cast the skill you should see the first tick at .5 seconds. This is illustrated here. Due to global cooldown (GCD), you can only cast a skill every second. As a result, even if you spam Searing Strike and its morph over and over, you will always get the first tick off, which is the premise that Masel's build functions on. As we can see here, even when I use the ability over and over, half a second later the first tick for the ability goes off.

    So I got to thinking, mechanically Venomous Strike and Burning Embers function identically. If a stamina DK can use this skill in lieu of some other spammable skill, is it viable for a magicka DK to do the same thing? After all magicka DK suffers from sustain problems more than any other spec than perhaps non-pet magicka Sorcerer (both are fairly abysmal terms of sustain let's be honest).

    Testing Conditions

    Before we get to the results I think it's important to state under the conditions I did my damage tests. I did not feel like personally wasting my own resources and so on doing dozens of damage tests, so I was on the PTS v4.2.4. Functionally the skills I used perform the same as live, so this is ultimately no difference.

    Gear and bar setup (Superstar):
    Hw4IogE.png

    I opted to go with full Arcane instead of a combination of Bloodthirsty, as that is what I had done for the first half of my tests and I didn't feel like redoing them all. Swapping out a few or all of the Arcane traits for Bloodthirsty will definitely net you an increase in damage.

    I used Molten Whip instead of Flame Lash since I cannot test the impact of Flame Lash on DPS effectively in a solo environment. Furthermore, its impact is entirely dependent on the up-time of off balance. One could mathematically figure out a DPS difference based upon the cooldown of off-balance and the cooldown on Power Lash, but that is not the topic for discussion.

    Using Burning Embers instead of Molten Whip reduces our magicka drain, but we've effectively lost a DOT, and we need to replace that. The candidate I used was Destructive Touch morphed into Destructive Clench. We do not need the additional range since as a mDK we play primarily in melee range, and this increases the damage on the skill anyway. Destructive Clench allows us to take advantage of the Ancient Knowledge passive without having to use Elemental Rage for our front bar ultimate. I opted for Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate while testing for the 2% increased magicka and magicka regeneration.

    All of the tests are against a 6m test dummy. I provided my own Elemental Drain, and I used Channeled Acceleration as I am more comfortable using that in my own rotation. I use a dynamic rotation reapplying my DOTs as they are falling off and for sustain I used Spell Symmetry after I reapplied my ground dots on back bar. I always began the test with a Standard of Might ready and I always dropped another Standard of Might at 20%. Starting the test with 250 ulti takes a not insignificant amount of time to generate for 10+ damage tests, hence why I didn't feel like redoing my tests with Bloodthirsty as well. Being that this is the PTS I did not have access to Vampire for the increased sustain.

    Since Burning Embers has 6 ticks on the DOT component, and the first tick of that always goes off the damage we get from simply using it back to back is actually the base damage + 1/6 of the DOT component. I tested a few tooltip values and found that Burning Ember's tooltip damage to be approximately 24% lower than Molten Whip. Given that, in most of my testing, Whip makes up about 15% or so of my total damage, we should expect only a few 1-2% decrease in our overall DPS when using Burning Embers, and that is assuming somehow none of the other ticks from Burning Embers go off.

    Results

    I kept track of several metrics over the course of my tests: Magicka Drain/s, Magicka Regen/s, DPS (Damage per Second), HPS (Healing per Second), and the magicka drain of each of my skills, and the number of times I cast Spell Symmetry.

    Molten Whip:

    llgJWp4.jpg

    Burning Embers:

    4GnEcFq.jpg

    A few things to note here:
    • The magicka drain due to Eruption on my Molten Whip tests is significantly lower than Burning Embers, especially on run 1, where is only drained 175 magicka. I looked over the combat report and found that I actually cast it 7 times.
    • On average the skills I kept the same had similar impact on my magicka drain, which implies that over several runs, my rotation remained relatively the same.
    • On average both setups had similar DPS, even across several runs.
    • Burning Embers' impact on my magicka drain was significantly lower than Molten Whip's. Destructive Clench has a high magicka cost, and so I lost a lot of magicka to that skill.
    • The HPS on Burning Embers tests is significantly higher, since we are casting the skill more often, and procing the heal more often. For comparison while typing this up I did a fast 3mil test with a mNB using Swallow Soul and got around 6.5k HPS.

    Conclusion

    In a static scenario, Burning Embers actually performed very similarly to Molten Whip. With a DPS difference of about .8% in my testing, with the higher damage in favor of Molten Whip I would say that Burning Embers is certainly a viable alternative although not necessarily better. This especially becomes true if you are looking to run a Shock enchant on your back bar instead of an Absorb Magicka enchantment and struggle with sustain issues. But remember, if you do tests yourself, the Shock enchantment provides a small uptime of Minor Vulnerability (about 50%). This will skew your results if you do not use it in both cases, since in a group or even a raid environment, you should expect a much higher uptime on Minor Vulnerability.

    Burning Embers had a much higher HPS when we used it as a main spammable. This is because Burning Embers made up a larger % of our overall damage and the heal is proportionate to the damage dealt with the effect expires (which includes when we recast the ability). The heal serves more utility when we use it a spammable however, since we are effectively procing a small heal often instead of a giant heal every 10 seconds. When used a spammable the average heal for most of my runs stood at about 10k, but when we used Whip the heal averaged about 25k. Most DD will have only 15-18k health, and so that's a lot of healing that is wasted. If you have to wait 10 seconds for a heal, you're already dead (insert north star meme here). If you are concerned about your survivability in a group, using Burning Embers as your main attack may be a decent option, and it also offsets the health cost of using Spell Symmetry. This could be attractive in a situation where you might not be the healer's primary focus.

    The tests done with Burning Embers certainly had lower magicka drain on average, and this is even after considering the fact that I didn't have to cast Spell Symmetry as often. If you are struggling with sustain, this could be a viable alternative. Using Burning Embers I certainly had no problem sustaining on a 26mil dummy.

    All of your damage comes from damage over time effects. This is why while Burning Embers overall damage actually keeps up with Molten Whip. Any DK will tell you there are times when several of your DOTs will all fall off around the same time and you are stuck recasting blockade, eruption, and 2 other dots back to back. If you use Molten Whip, while you are recasting these other abilities the damage Whip is putting out is effectively 0. If you use Burning Embers, you still have it ticking in the background. Burning Embers will likely be the last skill you used when you recast other DOTs, so it should almost never fall off on its own. In my own testing Burning Embers had an uptime off 99%.

    This continues to be useful if a boss likes to move around. Most ranged magicka DD have at least 2 ground DOTs to reapply if a boss moves: Blockade and some class based DOT such as Liquid Lightning, Twisting Path, Eruption, Winter's Revenge, and Blazing Spear. The disadvantage a melee attacker like mDK has is that it can't begin damaging again until it gets within 7m of the boss while a ranged DD can continue with their rotation. With Destructive Clench on your bar (or Reach if you really felt) you can begin reapplying that DOT as you close the gap, followed by Engulfing Flames with its shorter range, and finally continuing with Burning Embers. I have not personally tested this in a boss fight extensively, so your mileage may vary.

    In my testing I used Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate since I wanted the increased max magicka and magicka regeneration. While Elemental Rage and Standard of Might are used in a similar fashion: large AoE fire based ulti that cost 250 ultimate and deal similar damage over their lifetime, Elemental Rage offers more burst damage, and so that is definitely still an option. I could also see the possibility of having Take Flight on your front bar as a burst ultimate to use on trash mobs, or for use in dungeons that you would like to close the gap quickly. In a trial I would not see this as a viable option.

    Finally, and I think that this is definitely worth mentioning: since we are using Destructive Clench your tank may not always appreciate you CC'ing enemies regularly. This is a valid concern, please take this into consideration if you do choose to use Clench.

    If you think I missed anything important, or notice any glaring errors in my testing or logic please let me know. I put this up simply for informational purposes, but it's not my intention to mislead anyone.

    Just as effective as the venomous claw morph on stam dk! Was about time someone posted a build with it, I didn't have time to do it yet :smile:
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Banana
    Banana
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    I like it and the regular heal is great when solo
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    interesting. whip seems like it's in a weird place. maybe because it isn't a dot... hmm
    Edited by ESO_Nightingale on December 26, 2018 2:25PM
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    The constant passive heal while attacking seems like it would be great for VMA.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    interesting. whip seems like it's in a weird place. maybe because it isn't a dot... hmm

    Whip is in a weird place because of the nerfs it get in the last patches... at least 5 nerfs
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    You know when spammable is overnerfed when it becomes more advantageous to spam a DoT instead of it... morbid, but still, great work finding the alternatives, @Masel and @Somewhere . Will nudge a friend, mDK aficionado, towards this thread.
  • md3788
    md3788
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    Thought about doing this, but I have really no issues with sustain on a 6m. I don't even run symmetry. Are you running Blue food? Is that the need for additional sustain? I run witchmother's and usually need to do 2-3 heavy attacks over the course of the parse but other than that I'm good. This is without orb support
    vFG1 HM
  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Masel wrote: »
    Just as effective as the venomous claw morph on stam dk! Was about time someone posted a build with it, I didn't have time to do it yet :smile:
    I wouldn't have thought of this on my own if I hadn't seen your build a while ago.
    interesting. whip seems like it's in a weird place. maybe because it isn't a dot... hmm

    Well, I think the first question we should ask ourselves is "are we ok with this?" Personally, I don't think so. I think if we have a skill like whip that seems pretty much like it's designed to be spammed, it should probably excel at that job. A cost reduction would go a very long way on whip, that or a minor damage buff on it (no larger than 10%).

    I have seen several times people asking for ways for a DPS to apply a buff or debuff that can't simply be loaded off onto a tank or a healer, in order to encourage bringing at least one to a raid. Adding a short duration debuff to whip that helps the entire group could work as well. I'm just musing at this point however.
  • SkysOutThizeOut
    SkysOutThizeOut
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    All they had to do was not take away the free cost of lash and let us maintain the stun/give us a small damage bump
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Very interesting findings, and nice, organised format! Gonna have to try this for myself.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    It also works in PvP. Since murkmire release in non CP I am using embers as spammable and lash as burst dmg ability when I fossilize enemy. The biggest improvement in murkmire that DK got and not many people seems to realize that is 2 additional meters on all meele attacks.
    Edited by Juhasow on December 28, 2018 8:18AM
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    The constant passive heal while attacking seems like it would be great for VMA.

    @Joy_Division has been recommending exactly that approach to VMA for a while now, in conjunction with Flappy Wings.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on December 28, 2018 9:24AM
  • troomar
    troomar
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    It's very similar to Liko's Rending Slashes as spammable https://youtube.com/watch?v=-kod_JZGM_U. Hovewer, the healing part is very interesting for solo play.

    Anyway, I tried this setup yesterday and I had great results with it. I used a bit different rotation and different skills, but with just 812 Magicka recovery I was able to hit 39k completely solo, no cheese (18k+ Health, Thief, dual-stat food), without single heavy attack! I still have to try it in a raid party, but I'm afraid that the low Magicka drain will actually be DPS loss. I will add the result if I get something interesting to show.
    Yes.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    The constant passive heal while attacking seems like it would be great for VMA.

    @Joy_Division has been recommending exactly that approach to VMA for a while now, in conjunction with Flappy Wings.

    Exactly. Genuinely shocked that there have been and are so few DK clears when the class presents the kit most friendliest to inexperienced players. Good DPS that concurrently heals and virtually immunity to ranged attacks.

    Problem is most people just copy what so-and-so's target dummy parse in on Youtube when DK has so much more potential for something like vMA.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    All they had to do was not take away the free cost of lash and let us maintain the stun/give us a small damage bump

    What about making it dodgeable? That was the nail in the coffin.

    I have no problem with the extra cost, the removal of the stun, even I could be OK with the CD (remember when whip proc had no CD?), but making it dodgeable was a low blow
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Have you tried this build with the BR destro back bar, back baring fire ring and front baring wall instead of using reach? Would save a ton of magic and you would have an AOE spammable, when you need it.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 3, 2019 6:11AM
  • coplannb16_ESO
    coplannb16_ESO
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    very interesting. thanks for the test and analysis.

    Iv been only running whip in pvp these days and didnt slot embers (always tight on bar slots). solo this was fine esp. if I manage to get a power lash proc off without the enemy dodge rolling out of fossilize after first lash.
    With multiple enemies around embers wins due to beeing able to a) put the dot on multiple enemies and thus b) have multipe sources of healing up that you can potentially collect with another embers every few secs on different enemies.

    I will switch to embers and see how it goes.

    It is really sad that all morphs of whip suck now. power lash proc was an unique mechanic and I loved the off-balance builds in pve and pvp it offered. now, its just sad. I mean in PvE I often end up using that psijic spammable anyway (or force pulse if I need ranged interrupts)... sad sad
    max level: mDK, stamBlade, stamSorc, magPlar, mDen, stamDen, magBlade, stamCro
    ESO+
    # of mules: 4 (FULL)
    maxed bank: FULL -_-
    Stop the grind! Get rid of stupid events and daily-quest gallore. Get rid of "have a chance of 1 in a million to get a piece of 1 in 30 to get a stupid motif or pet... wtf..."
    And at this point just remove all classes and have everyone choose their set of skills. then balance accordingly to skills always used vs. skills never used.
  • Tremors
    Tremors
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    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.
    Passionfruit GM - PC NA
    Godslayer | Dawnbringer
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    Been thinking about something similar myself. This give me the push to go all in and try it, thanks.
  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.
    Edited by Somewhere on January 3, 2019 4:00PM
  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    I run whip and embers in PVP. With Whip as my spammable and embers just for the Dot and heal. However, when outbumbered, I use embers as a spammable since the heal is helpful and I can apply it to every target, and then I use the whip as my execute for low health or off-balanced enemies.
  • Tremors
    Tremors
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    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.
    Passionfruit GM - PC NA
    Godslayer | Dawnbringer
  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.

    Have you tried the Wild impluse staff as your back bar and running wall on your front bar? Is that too much of a dps loss for you? On my toon, elemental ring costs 2.6k magic with the staff and does between 10k and 25k damage, each of the 3 ticks of the dot after do between 5-7k, per tick. How much DPS does clench give you?

    I mean I am not questioning you are a much better DPS then me, I have no idea how you sustain 1.6k magic drain, mine tops out at 1.3k.
  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.

    Have you tried the Wild impluse staff as your back bar and running wall on your front bar? Is that too much of a dps loss for you? On my toon, elemental ring costs 2.6k magic with the staff and does between 10k and 25k damage, each of the 3 ticks of the dot after do between 5-7k, per tick. How much DPS does clench give you?

    I mean I am not questioning you are a much better DPS then me, I have no idea how you sustain 1.6k magic drain, mine tops out at 1.3k.

    So I did a couple of quick attempts with it. Overall the DPS that Wild Impulse puts out is about the same as Clench overall, roughly 2.5k dps. Wild Impulse is a bit more actually. However, overall our DPS went down because every other skill we are firing off is now weaker as a result of running the Blackrose Staff. After all, in order to run that we are giving up one of our 5-pc sets or our monster set in order to run it. We could run Blackrose instead of Maelstrom but based on tooltip values alone Maelstrom outperforms Wild Impulse. 4800 over 8 seconds is only 600 dps (and testing confirms this, each component of Wild Impulse is about 500-600 dps and it cannot crit and Gilliam confirmed this is intentional). Maelstrom is 1.3k minimum added to our light attacks, which ideally should be firing off about every second. Factor in critical hits and any other bonuses and you can see why Maelstrom is so strong. Maelstrom on its own contributes about 2-2.5k damage on its own without necessarily giving up much other damage since it's on back bar.

    I sustain 1.6k-1.7k drain with judicious use of spell symmetry. In a real raid or dungeon environment, you usually have a healer providing some sustain support, so you don't need to do that as much.
  • BuddyAces
    BuddyAces
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    Masel wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    I have not really seen any posts about this topic, so I figured I would make one. I am not here to make suggestions about your build or anyone's build. This post is purely for informational purposes, and while I can extrapolate a bit, it's really up to you to make your own conclusions as to whether this is relevant to you and your particular build. I do have a conclusion at the very end if you wish to skip all the preamble.

    Introduction

    As of the Murkmire update, the DK passive World in Ruin was changed to reduce the cost of all poison abilities by 25%. Most notably, this meant that Venomous Claw would cost only around 700 stamina, prompting a build such as Masel's Claw of the Mad God to take advantage of the low cost. This is coupled with the relative uniqueness in how the game applies the DOT component of Searing Strike and its morphs. For those of you not familiar, the skill has a relatively low upfront damage, and then a DOT component that follows it which lasts 10.5 seconds. The game applies begins applying the DOT half a second after you cast the skill, so if you cast the skill you should see the first tick at .5 seconds. This is illustrated here. Due to global cooldown (GCD), you can only cast a skill every second. As a result, even if you spam Searing Strike and its morph over and over, you will always get the first tick off, which is the premise that Masel's build functions on. As we can see here, even when I use the ability over and over, half a second later the first tick for the ability goes off.

    So I got to thinking, mechanically Venomous Strike and Burning Embers function identically. If a stamina DK can use this skill in lieu of some other spammable skill, is it viable for a magicka DK to do the same thing? After all magicka DK suffers from sustain problems more than any other spec than perhaps non-pet magicka Sorcerer (both are fairly abysmal terms of sustain let's be honest).

    Testing Conditions

    Before we get to the results I think it's important to state under the conditions I did my damage tests. I did not feel like personally wasting my own resources and so on doing dozens of damage tests, so I was on the PTS v4.2.4. Functionally the skills I used perform the same as live, so this is ultimately no difference.

    Gear and bar setup (Superstar):
    Hw4IogE.png

    I opted to go with full Arcane instead of a combination of Bloodthirsty, as that is what I had done for the first half of my tests and I didn't feel like redoing them all. Swapping out a few or all of the Arcane traits for Bloodthirsty will definitely net you an increase in damage.

    I used Molten Whip instead of Flame Lash since I cannot test the impact of Flame Lash on DPS effectively in a solo environment. Furthermore, its impact is entirely dependent on the up-time of off balance. One could mathematically figure out a DPS difference based upon the cooldown of off-balance and the cooldown on Power Lash, but that is not the topic for discussion.

    Using Burning Embers instead of Molten Whip reduces our magicka drain, but we've effectively lost a DOT, and we need to replace that. The candidate I used was Destructive Touch morphed into Destructive Clench. We do not need the additional range since as a mDK we play primarily in melee range, and this increases the damage on the skill anyway. Destructive Clench allows us to take advantage of the Ancient Knowledge passive without having to use Elemental Rage for our front bar ultimate. I opted for Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate while testing for the 2% increased magicka and magicka regeneration.

    All of the tests are against a 6m test dummy. I provided my own Elemental Drain, and I used Channeled Acceleration as I am more comfortable using that in my own rotation. I use a dynamic rotation reapplying my DOTs as they are falling off and for sustain I used Spell Symmetry after I reapplied my ground dots on back bar. I always began the test with a Standard of Might ready and I always dropped another Standard of Might at 20%. Starting the test with 250 ulti takes a not insignificant amount of time to generate for 10+ damage tests, hence why I didn't feel like redoing my tests with Bloodthirsty as well. Being that this is the PTS I did not have access to Vampire for the increased sustain.

    Since Burning Embers has 6 ticks on the DOT component, and the first tick of that always goes off the damage we get from simply using it back to back is actually the base damage + 1/6 of the DOT component. I tested a few tooltip values and found that Burning Ember's tooltip damage to be approximately 24% lower than Molten Whip. Given that, in most of my testing, Whip makes up about 15% or so of my total damage, we should expect only a few 1-2% decrease in our overall DPS when using Burning Embers, and that is assuming somehow none of the other ticks from Burning Embers go off.

    Results

    I kept track of several metrics over the course of my tests: Magicka Drain/s, Magicka Regen/s, DPS (Damage per Second), HPS (Healing per Second), and the magicka drain of each of my skills, and the number of times I cast Spell Symmetry.

    Molten Whip:

    llgJWp4.jpg

    Burning Embers:

    4GnEcFq.jpg

    A few things to note here:
    • The magicka drain due to Eruption on my Molten Whip tests is significantly lower than Burning Embers, especially on run 1, where is only drained 175 magicka. I looked over the combat report and found that I actually cast it 7 times.
    • On average the skills I kept the same had similar impact on my magicka drain, which implies that over several runs, my rotation remained relatively the same.
    • On average both setups had similar DPS, even across several runs.
    • Burning Embers' impact on my magicka drain was significantly lower than Molten Whip's. Destructive Clench has a high magicka cost, and so I lost a lot of magicka to that skill.
    • The HPS on Burning Embers tests is significantly higher, since we are casting the skill more often, and procing the heal more often. For comparison while typing this up I did a fast 3mil test with a mNB using Swallow Soul and got around 6.5k HPS.

    Conclusion

    In a static scenario, Burning Embers actually performed very similarly to Molten Whip. With a DPS difference of about .8% in my testing, with the higher damage in favor of Molten Whip I would say that Burning Embers is certainly a viable alternative although not necessarily better. This especially becomes true if you are looking to run a Shock enchant on your back bar instead of an Absorb Magicka enchantment and struggle with sustain issues. But remember, if you do tests yourself, the Shock enchantment provides a small uptime of Minor Vulnerability (about 50%). This will skew your results if you do not use it in both cases, since in a group or even a raid environment, you should expect a much higher uptime on Minor Vulnerability.

    Burning Embers had a much higher HPS when we used it as a main spammable. This is because Burning Embers made up a larger % of our overall damage and the heal is proportionate to the damage dealt with the effect expires (which includes when we recast the ability). The heal serves more utility when we use it a spammable however, since we are effectively procing a small heal often instead of a giant heal every 10 seconds. When used a spammable the average heal for most of my runs stood at about 10k, but when we used Whip the heal averaged about 25k. Most DD will have only 15-18k health, and so that's a lot of healing that is wasted. If you have to wait 10 seconds for a heal, you're already dead (insert north star meme here). If you are concerned about your survivability in a group, using Burning Embers as your main attack may be a decent option, and it also offsets the health cost of using Spell Symmetry. This could be attractive in a situation where you might not be the healer's primary focus.

    The tests done with Burning Embers certainly had lower magicka drain on average, and this is even after considering the fact that I didn't have to cast Spell Symmetry as often. If you are struggling with sustain, this could be a viable alternative. Using Burning Embers I certainly had no problem sustaining on a 26mil dummy.

    All of your damage comes from damage over time effects. This is why while Burning Embers overall damage actually keeps up with Molten Whip. Any DK will tell you there are times when several of your DOTs will all fall off around the same time and you are stuck recasting blockade, eruption, and 2 other dots back to back. If you use Molten Whip, while you are recasting these other abilities the damage Whip is putting out is effectively 0. If you use Burning Embers, you still have it ticking in the background. Burning Embers will likely be the last skill you used when you recast other DOTs, so it should almost never fall off on its own. In my own testing Burning Embers had an uptime off 99%.

    This continues to be useful if a boss likes to move around. Most ranged magicka DD have at least 2 ground DOTs to reapply if a boss moves: Blockade and some class based DOT such as Liquid Lightning, Twisting Path, Eruption, Winter's Revenge, and Blazing Spear. The disadvantage a melee attacker like mDK has is that it can't begin damaging again until it gets within 7m of the boss while a ranged DD can continue with their rotation. With Destructive Clench on your bar (or Reach if you really felt) you can begin reapplying that DOT as you close the gap, followed by Engulfing Flames with its shorter range, and finally continuing with Burning Embers. I have not personally tested this in a boss fight extensively, so your mileage may vary.

    In my testing I used Shooting Star for my front bar ultimate since I wanted the increased max magicka and magicka regeneration. While Elemental Rage and Standard of Might are used in a similar fashion: large AoE fire based ulti that cost 250 ultimate and deal similar damage over their lifetime, Elemental Rage offers more burst damage, and so that is definitely still an option. I could also see the possibility of having Take Flight on your front bar as a burst ultimate to use on trash mobs, or for use in dungeons that you would like to close the gap quickly. In a trial I would not see this as a viable option.

    Finally, and I think that this is definitely worth mentioning: since we are using Destructive Clench your tank may not always appreciate you CC'ing enemies regularly. This is a valid concern, please take this into consideration if you do choose to use Clench.

    If you think I missed anything important, or notice any glaring errors in my testing or logic please let me know. I put this up simply for informational purposes, but it's not my intention to mislead anyone.

    Just as effective as the venomous claw morph on stam dk! Was about time someone posted a build with it, I didn't have time to do it yet :smile:

    You are the first person to respond to the OP. For the love of all that is holy NEVER AGAIN QUOTE AN ENTIRE WALL OF TEXT ESPECIALLY IF YOUR RESPONSE IS A COUPLE SENTENCES.

    Us mobile readers do not care for this.
    They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866

    I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Somewhere wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.

    Have you tried the Wild impluse staff as your back bar and running wall on your front bar? Is that too much of a dps loss for you? On my toon, elemental ring costs 2.6k magic with the staff and does between 10k and 25k damage, each of the 3 ticks of the dot after do between 5-7k, per tick. How much DPS does clench give you?

    I mean I am not questioning you are a much better DPS then me, I have no idea how you sustain 1.6k magic drain, mine tops out at 1.3k.

    So I did a couple of quick attempts with it. Overall the DPS that Wild Impulse puts out is about the same as Clench overall, roughly 2.5k dps. Wild Impulse is a bit more actually. However, overall our DPS went down because every other skill we are firing off is now weaker as a result of running the Blackrose Staff. After all, in order to run that we are giving up one of our 5-pc sets or our monster set in order to run it. We could run Blackrose instead of Maelstrom but based on tooltip values alone Maelstrom outperforms Wild Impulse. 4800 over 8 seconds is only 600 dps (and testing confirms this, each component of Wild Impulse is about 500-600 dps and it cannot crit and Gilliam confirmed this is intentional). Maelstrom is 1.3k minimum added to our light attacks, which ideally should be firing off about every second. Factor in critical hits and any other bonuses and you can see why Maelstrom is so strong. Maelstrom on its own contributes about 2-2.5k damage on its own without necessarily giving up much other damage since it's on back bar.

    I sustain 1.6k-1.7k drain with judicious use of spell symmetry. In a real raid or dungeon environment, you usually have a healer providing some sustain support, so you don't need to do that as much.

    Thank you for the response. Couple things.

    The BR staff does 3 ticks of ~5k. ~5k every 1.8 seconds, not over 8. Total is ~15k over 8 seconds. So that is ~1.8k dps. And the staff makes the skill cheaper and you get access to an AOE spammable, something I consider very important, I use lightning staff for the AOE on my sorc and sap essence on my magblade.

    As I said, I am not a top end DPS, my light attacks are hardly ever higher then ~5% of my DPS and the 20-25% of the damage you do with light attacks makes me jealous and irritated that they are that high. I use a controller and find no fun in light attacks, much less any motivation to practice enough to get to your level of damage from them. I look at your 26 mill dummy test and see ~480 light attacks out if ~500 seconds and see no way I could ever do that, even if I cared to, it just seems so repetitive and unfun. I get 35k dps without doing that and that is enough for the content I do.

    My DPS has went up using the brr staff on the back bar and wall on my front, with using embers as my spammable, so thank you for that. My bars look like this-

    Inner light, coag blood, wall, engulfing flames, burning embers, ulti meteor

    Inner light, igneous weapons, flames of Oblivion, eruption, elemental ring, standard of might.

    I use front bar BSW and elf bane. With grothdar.

    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 5, 2019 6:37PM
  • Somewhere
    Somewhere
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    Somewhere wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.

    Have you tried the Wild impluse staff as your back bar and running wall on your front bar? Is that too much of a dps loss for you? On my toon, elemental ring costs 2.6k magic with the staff and does between 10k and 25k damage, each of the 3 ticks of the dot after do between 5-7k, per tick. How much DPS does clench give you?

    I mean I am not questioning you are a much better DPS then me, I have no idea how you sustain 1.6k magic drain, mine tops out at 1.3k.

    So I did a couple of quick attempts with it. Overall the DPS that Wild Impulse puts out is about the same as Clench overall, roughly 2.5k dps. Wild Impulse is a bit more actually. However, overall our DPS went down because every other skill we are firing off is now weaker as a result of running the Blackrose Staff. After all, in order to run that we are giving up one of our 5-pc sets or our monster set in order to run it. We could run Blackrose instead of Maelstrom but based on tooltip values alone Maelstrom outperforms Wild Impulse. 4800 over 8 seconds is only 600 dps (and testing confirms this, each component of Wild Impulse is about 500-600 dps and it cannot crit and Gilliam confirmed this is intentional). Maelstrom is 1.3k minimum added to our light attacks, which ideally should be firing off about every second. Factor in critical hits and any other bonuses and you can see why Maelstrom is so strong. Maelstrom on its own contributes about 2-2.5k damage on its own without necessarily giving up much other damage since it's on back bar.

    I sustain 1.6k-1.7k drain with judicious use of spell symmetry. In a real raid or dungeon environment, you usually have a healer providing some sustain support, so you don't need to do that as much.

    Thank you for the response. Couple things.

    The BR staff does 3 ticks of ~5k. ~5k every 1.8 seconds, not over 8. Total is ~15k over 8 seconds. So that is ~1.8k dps. And the staff makes the skill cheaper and you get access to an AOE spammable, something I consider very important, I use lightning staff for the AOE on my sorc and sap essence on my magblade.

    As I said, I am not a top end DPS, my light attacks are hardly ever higher then ~5% of my DPS and the 20-25% of the damage you do with light attacks makes me jealous and irritated that they are that high. I use a controller and find no fun in light attacks, much less any motivation to practice enough to get to your level of damage from them. I look at your 26 mill dummy test and see ~480 light attacks out if ~500 seconds and see no way I could ever do that, even if I cared to, it just seems so repetitive and unfun. I get 35k dps without doing that and that is enough for the content I do.

    My DPS has went up using the brr staff on the back bar and wall on my front, with using embers as my spammable, so thank you for that. My bars look like this-

    Inner light, coag blood, wall, engulfing flames, burning embers, ulti meteor

    Inner light, igneous weapons, flames of Oblivion, eruption, elemental ring, standard of might.

    I use front bar BSW and elf bane. With grothdar.
    Yeah I see in my haste I wrote just 600 dps, instead of 600 dps per element, which is 1.8k. Sorry about that. That said I still find that getting two full 5-pc sets + a monster set tends to outperform the Blackrose Prison Staff on front bar, and as far as back bar options go, Maelstrom is superior. Only because back bar weapon tends to be sort of a freebie, and we should already be running Elemental Wall, so it's an obvious choice. I do like the idea of Wild Impulse, I just don't find its benefits are justifiable in the face of all of that.
    Edited by Somewhere on January 5, 2019 10:11PM
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    While its meh as a spammable in PvP (tried in BGs, so against decent players. Maybe its fine for smashing potatos) I really like the feel of embers. It seems to hit a split second faster (though gcd is same) is cheap af, heals, and looks better imo. Whip, especially power whip, is clunky.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    Somewhere wrote: »
    Tremors wrote: »
    I messed with this a bit after the dot spammable vids came out. It’s not bad, probably wouldn’t bother running clench though, you’d probably get more dmg out of volatile armour too.

    Possibly, the reason I chose clench was to also grant us Ancient Knowledge on our front bar so we don't have to run destro ulti. Then again, there aren't many amazing options to replace it with in the first place. That said, Clench does have higher tooltip damage, especially if you're playing Altmer or Dunmer, since their passives will boost the fire damage. Volatile Armor deals magic damage and wouldn't be boosted. Clench is more of a "I don't have any other good option". That said, since Volatile Armor is an AoE it would be good for a maelstrom build I suppose.

    Yeah clench just costs too much and does too little unfortunately. The way to achieve the same bonus from ancient knowledge and mages guild is take whip off your bar completely and move spell sym to the front.

    You would then either slot inner light and shield on the back (in place of ele drain) or volatile armour and shield, or volatile armour AND inner light.

    I think I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but what I mean is using Volatile Armor instead is definitely a DPS loss. Certainly it would have even greater sustain, but at that point you're over-sustaining. Clench may cost a lot, but it's not enough that you would be suffering greatly, and it definitely does more damage than Volatile Armor. Generally speaking you wouldn't even be running elemental drain on your back bar anyway, your healer or someone else would be taking care of it, so you would already have shield there. Slotting Inner Light on your backbar isn't going to grant a giant damage bonus, since we don't spend as much time on backbar.

    Finally, in the situation where we are running Clench, we aren't running Whip at all. In that situation we are running:

    Destructive Clench, Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Inner Light, and Shooting Star for our ultimate. In order to run Volatile Armor over Clench you simply have to hot swap them out, and then re-slot Fiery Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive.

    Have you tried the Wild impluse staff as your back bar and running wall on your front bar? Is that too much of a dps loss for you? On my toon, elemental ring costs 2.6k magic with the staff and does between 10k and 25k damage, each of the 3 ticks of the dot after do between 5-7k, per tick. How much DPS does clench give you?

    I mean I am not questioning you are a much better DPS then me, I have no idea how you sustain 1.6k magic drain, mine tops out at 1.3k.

    So I did a couple of quick attempts with it. Overall the DPS that Wild Impulse puts out is about the same as Clench overall, roughly 2.5k dps. Wild Impulse is a bit more actually. However, overall our DPS went down because every other skill we are firing off is now weaker as a result of running the Blackrose Staff. After all, in order to run that we are giving up one of our 5-pc sets or our monster set in order to run it. We could run Blackrose instead of Maelstrom but based on tooltip values alone Maelstrom outperforms Wild Impulse. 4800 over 8 seconds is only 600 dps (and testing confirms this, each component of Wild Impulse is about 500-600 dps and it cannot crit and Gilliam confirmed this is intentional). Maelstrom is 1.3k minimum added to our light attacks, which ideally should be firing off about every second. Factor in critical hits and any other bonuses and you can see why Maelstrom is so strong. Maelstrom on its own contributes about 2-2.5k damage on its own without necessarily giving up much other damage since it's on back bar.

    I sustain 1.6k-1.7k drain with judicious use of spell symmetry. In a real raid or dungeon environment, you usually have a healer providing some sustain support, so you don't need to do that as much.

    Thank you for the response. Couple things.

    The BR staff does 3 ticks of ~5k. ~5k every 1.8 seconds, not over 8. Total is ~15k over 8 seconds. So that is ~1.8k dps. And the staff makes the skill cheaper and you get access to an AOE spammable, something I consider very important, I use lightning staff for the AOE on my sorc and sap essence on my magblade.

    As I said, I am not a top end DPS, my light attacks are hardly ever higher then ~5% of my DPS and the 20-25% of the damage you do with light attacks makes me jealous and irritated that they are that high. I use a controller and find no fun in light attacks, much less any motivation to practice enough to get to your level of damage from them. I look at your 26 mill dummy test and see ~480 light attacks out if ~500 seconds and see no way I could ever do that, even if I cared to, it just seems so repetitive and unfun. I get 35k dps without doing that and that is enough for the content I do.

    My DPS has went up using the brr staff on the back bar and wall on my front, with using embers as my spammable, so thank you for that. My bars look like this-

    Inner light, coag blood, wall, engulfing flames, burning embers, ulti meteor

    Inner light, igneous weapons, flames of Oblivion, eruption, elemental ring, standard of might.

    I use front bar BSW and elf bane. With grothdar.
    Yeah I see in my haste I wrote just 600 dps, instead of 600 dps per element, which is 1.8k. Sorry about that. That said I still find that getting two full 5-pc sets + a monster set tends to outperform the Blackrose Prison Staff on front bar, and as far as back bar options go, Maelstrom is superior. Only because back bar weapon tends to be sort of a freebie, and we should already be running Elemental Wall, so it's an obvious choice. I do like the idea of Wild Impulse, I just don't find its benefits are justifiable in the face of all of that.

    I have told the devs multiple times that the blackrose destro does not really have a use... The only situation where it can get close is with willpower+siroria+Monster set, because that basically gives you a "free" stat bonus through willpower on both bars.

    I made them aware of the fact that the Maelstrom 2h is able to crit, and instead of letting all arena weapon sets crit (they are part of a skill so they should be able to crit!) they did the opposite..
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