Youtube Builds - Can We Stop Please?

Woeler

Nice to see people being labeled all over in this thread.

It seems people fail to understand that most builds are not meant at all for top notch performance, but for the broadest spectrum of the target audience.

There is absolutely NO point at all in publishing a nr1 leaderboards build. Because those that play at that level don’t need builds, and those that don’t won’t be able to play it effectively.

In the end, the goal is to help a large portion of the playerbase get on their feet. And trust me, we all hate those blind copy/paste people that come to your Discord asking questions that are LITERALLY explained on the build page (they are either too dumb or too lazy to read, maybe both), just as much as you do.

If you have to do a project for school, you also don’t copy/paste wikipedia. You read it, and create your own version. This is how builds work too.

As for people acting like it is the gospel. Just don’t play with them? Unless it’s like, everyone. In that case, I would start questioning myself.

Point being: there will always be morons. It’s up to you whether to play with them or not.

Girl_Number8

So I guess you would like most of the class reps removed, as well. I mean since a lot of them have YouTube channels.

Lab3360

Woeler wrote: »

Nice to see people being labeled all over in this thread.

It seems people fail to understand that most builds are not meant at all for top notch performance, but for the broadest spectrum of the target audience.

There is absolutely NO point at all in publishing a nr1 leaderboards build. Because those that play at that level don’t need builds, and those that don’t won’t be able to play it effectively.

In the end, the goal is to help a large portion of the playerbase get on their feet. And trust me, we all hate those blind copy/paste people that come to your Discord asking questions that are LITERALLY explained on the build page (they are either too dumb or too lazy to read, maybe both), just as much as you do.

If you have to do a project for school, you also don’t copy/paste wikipedia. You read it, and create your own version. This is how builds work too.

As for people acting like it is the gospel. Just don’t play with them? Unless it’s like, everyone. In that case, I would start questioning myself.

Point being: there will always be morons. It’s up to you whether to play with them or not.

Welcome to Eso Daily!
Im youre host, Mystic Raven. RotfLmfao

Lab3360

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

So I guess you would like most of the class reps removed, as well. I mean since a lot of them have YouTube channels.

Somewhat of a conflict of interest. But this is such a unique situation because they were content creators and testers 1st. Their insight and knowledge of the game are invaluable. But, its also because of their skillset, and wide audience, the devs see their value and ability to communicate with the community and bring forth important feed back.

JumpmanLane

Alcast wrote: »

Builds in general should always function as a base line. Every player has a different playstyle and therefore always should adjust builds to their needs. Players like to follow builds on youtube or the website because some players do not have the time to invest testing all the things on their own and they know with the builds posted by a content creator they can achieve all the stuff in the game. Maybe they want to learn the game and understand it faster so they check out builds on websites and youtube.

I can not adjust builds for every single trial, that would be a crazy ton of work to do. However, people giving the argument that we do not play our own builds is just dumb. When you join my Partner Discord Server you can see the Hodor people and ASK them for all the setups they run in different trial, you can ask them how they achieve certain goals, how they do tactics etc...so saying that we do not share our builds is a little bit unfair if you ask me. Several Hodor people such as Karma, Liko, Warfire, Seb Williams, Andy and me upload videos of our runs from time to time alongside a ton of other content. You can always come watch me live on twitch and ask any question and I will try to answer it as good as possible.

Now in the end I am in a dilemma here, should I set up my builds for group play, solo play, target dummy humping etc....always a tough question to ask. For now most of them are meant for group play but maybe at some point I might swap that around. I do think tho that the builds offer a lot of information about the setup itself and I always have 3 different gear setups, 300 CP, 600 CP and max CP setups, on top of that I always try to put Maelstrom and Blackrose setups there too.

I also do understand that it can be sometimes annoying that people think its "the only way". However, I keep saying that people should adjust builds to their needs.

Much respect. I awesomed that. Yet, there’s a but. You put out PvP builds. PVP.

Now I’m new. I’m still learning. I scour the internet for insight. (Your site is an invaluable resource by the way-as I’m sure you know). However, the best PvPers I know laugh and say, “You BETTER not run that” with reference to your builds. Should you be putting out PvP builds.

I’ve run into Gilliam twice in Cyrodill. Both times he was on DC running with a DC small man I’m on speaking terms with. (They send you tells offering encouragement and build advice. They are actually pretty cool).

My question is DO you PvP? If so, how so? (1vX, Ball Zergs, Zerg surf? What?). Just curious.

SirNom

How boring would tanking and healing be if you had no buffs or debuffs to track. The game would die due to lack of healers and tanks. Roles of everyone in ESO is to support each other as much as possible because why would you not try to maximise the group damage? (Just to clarify, support means to help and helping would include taunting, healing, stacking adds, debuffing boss and buffing damage.) Makes no sense not to unless you were really squishy, in which case maybe go selfish until you learn and then slowly integrate group buffing and debuffing sets as a tank. Only reason not to buff and debuff when you are able is because you want to have an easy mode and it is just lazy. Some players in group will rightly not want to raid with you because you are not putting in the same amount of effort as they are which I see as fair enough. You just need to maybe find the right group for you that has the same views on how they want to play.

MartiniDaniels

SirNom wrote: »

How boring would tanking and healing be if you had no buffs or debuffs to track. The game would die due to lack of healers and tanks. Roles of everyone in ESO is to support each other as much as possible because why would you not try to maximise the group damage? (Just to clarify, support means to help and helping would include taunting, healing, stacking adds, debuffing boss and buffing damage.) Makes no sense not to unless you were really squishy, in which case maybe go selfish until you learn and then slowly integrate group buffing and debuffing sets as a tank. Only reason not to buff and debuff when you are able is because you want to have an easy mode and it is just lazy. Some players in group will rightly not want to raid with you because you are not putting in the same amount of effort as they are which I see as fair enough. You just need to maybe find the right group for you that has the same views on how they want to play.

You understand wrong. Topic starter completed all vet trials, he is rather experienced, but those free resources which are usually left after basic tank duties and surviving he wants to spend on alternative gameplay via non s&b tank, and not on group dps boost.

Brutusmax1mus

Well, to be competitive, you consider group composition and how to get the correct buffs, that's why diversity starts falling. There still is and always will be a most effective tactic available, for literally everything on the planet. It truly performs better.

Sure you can make a smoothie using a fork, but a blender surely works better.

Girl_Number8

Lab3360 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

So I guess you would like most of the class reps removed, as well. I mean since a lot of them have YouTube channels.

Somewhat of a conflict of interest. But this is such a unique situation because they were content creators and testers 1st. Their insight and knowledge of the game are invaluable. But, its also because of their skillset, and wide audience, the devs see their value and ability to communicate with the community and bring forth important feed back.

You said your builds were better....And yet, I don't see your YouTube channel shedding insight to new dlcs, sets, vet trial runs, etc....

All you have talked about was a sorcy tank. They are good tanks if you know what you are doing with them, tbh. Though I don't see the wisdom in insulting the people that worked hard in producing content on eso, when you have produced nothing to better the community in anyway.

Also, how do they communicate with the community on a helpful way, when they are now bound by an nda?

People should theory craft and create their builds but you can't expect experience trial guilds to just accept or waste their time on someones new build, not when there are tanks builds that are proven. No you won't find those builds on YouTube but you will in the trials guild like mine, where we help each other. That is where new builds will be appreciated with time after they are proven but not with randoms.

MLGProPlayer

Meta builds are mathematically optimal builds. That isn't an opinion. Everyone will arrive at the same build independently, as all pro players do. Other pros don't copy Alcast, they get to the same conclusion as him because they all understand the game.

If you actually discovered a superior build, it would become the new meta. But what I usually see are folks running weird hybrid builds or some nonsense and pulling 15k DPS, then complaining that no one respects their build.

WaltherCarraway

You gotta love Alcast once you learned how to earn money from bunch of minmax wanabe copying his PTS build idea.

e.g. Morrowind mother sorrow set pre grind hype. I earned 1.3M gold from those kids.

Girl_Number8

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Meta builds are mathematically optimal builds. That isn't an opinion. Everyone will arrive at the same build independently, as all pro players do. Other pros don't copy Alcast, they get to the same conclusion as him because they all understand the game.

If you actually discovered a superior build, it would become the new meta. But what I usually see are folks running weird hybrid builds or some nonsense and pulling 15k DPS, then complaining that no one respects their build.

Your not a pro unless you're getting paid.

Though yes, there are simple mathematical metas that are proven to do the best. With trials it is all about supporting the entire team. An inferior build that maybe is more selfish on how it functions would be suboptimal for everyone.

Girl_Number8

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

You gotta love Alcast once you learned how to earn money from bunch of minmax wanabe copying his PTS build idea.

e.g. Morrowind mother sorrow set pre grind hype. I earned 1.3M gold from those kids.

Haha, it is still selling^^ Which I am surprised at, since it is a very easy set to acquire.

Siohwenoeht

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

You gotta love Alcast once you learned how to earn money from bunch of minmax wanabe copying his PTS build idea.

e.g. Morrowind mother sorrow set pre grind hype. I earned 1.3M gold from those kids.

Haha, it is still selling^^ Which I am surprised at, since it is a very easy set to acquire.

Yes but there's a current crop of players that don't want to farm anything... Skill points, lore books etc... Apparently working towards goals is out of style

But on topic, meta builds are what they are. It's not that creative builds can't be effective but there are some players that fool themselves into thinking that as long as they equip the fotm meta gear they'll perform at the same level as those pushing the limits on progression runs. They don't realize that it also takes quite a bit of practice, time invested into learning why the build works the way it does, and the right group to push those leaderboard scores.

After typing that I realize the first point is more on topic than I thought... It takes work to be a top player, not just the gear and rotation a top player came up with lol.

D0PAMINE

Woeler wrote: »

Nice to see people being labeled all over in this thread.

It seems people fail to understand that most builds are not meant at all for top notch performance, but for the broadest spectrum of the target audience.

There is absolutely NO point at all in publishing a nr1 leaderboards build. Because those that play at that level don’t need builds, and those that don’t won’t be able to play it effectively.

In the end, the goal is to help a large portion of the playerbase get on their feet. And trust me, we all hate those blind copy/paste people that come to your Discord asking questions that are LITERALLY explained on the build page (they are either too dumb or too lazy to read, maybe both), just as much as you do.

If you have to do a project for school, you also don’t copy/paste wikipedia. You read it, and create your own version. This is how builds work too.

As for people acting like it is the gospel. Just don’t play with them? Unless it’s like, everyone. In that case, I would start questioning myself.

Point being: there will always be morons. It’s up to you whether to play with them or not.

Your site helped me understand tanking much better. Thank you man.

Scallan

Probably just shouting into the void here, but while I do enjoy making my own builds, there are some really powerful and fun YouTube builds out there. They're just not done by the well known channels (you know who they are) but by relatively unknown YouTubers who tend to have low subscriber counts.

There are some hidden gems to be found if you look hard enough.

SupremeRissole

Lab3360 wrote: »

royo wrote: »

People should stop using leaderboard builds and tactics in non-leaderboard situations and most of these problems would go away.

They cant. They are dps crazy bro.
Its ridiculous. I have never seen this in 40+ years of gaming and mmos.

Healers and tanks are like 2nd rate to dps in this game. They say support youre team when really they mean help me dps more.
Please put on that medium dps set to help me dps more. Healer put in that buff set to help dps more.

Most who know what they are talking about will agree that tanks and healers have the hardest job in the game. They arent 2nd rate, they are the leaders and they call the shots.
The reason its "all about the DPS" is because the more DPS you have the faster everything dies which means the faster you complete the content which means you can do more in the game with the time you have. Most players have jobs and may only be able to play for a few hours a day, so why would they want to spend that time struggling on content that could be finished in half the time, just because one selfish player wants to feel like a special individual and wear their non optimal gear.
Bear in mind ESO is a MULTIPLAYER game and its not all about you.
If you dont want people telling you as a tank what to wear maybe you shouldnt be a tank or try to play group content. Make a guild and fill it with like minded players and enjoy the game how you want. Just understand that there will ALWAYS be a meta regardless if you took away youtube, combat metrics, dps parses, it will always come down to what is FASTER and what is EASIER.

MartiniDaniels

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

royo wrote: »

People should stop using leaderboard builds and tactics in non-leaderboard situations and most of these problems would go away.

They cant. They are dps crazy bro.
Its ridiculous. I have never seen this in 40+ years of gaming and mmos.

Healers and tanks are like 2nd rate to dps in this game. They say support youre team when really they mean help me dps more.
Please put on that medium dps set to help me dps more. Healer put in that buff set to help dps more.

Most who know what they are talking about will agree that tanks and healers have the hardest job in the game. They arent 2nd rate, they are the leaders and they call the shots.

Lol, it's showrunner who call the shots no matter the role, basically if you are in good terms with him/her, you may run in any setup and your opinion matters in trial discussion, if not - you are either healbot, buffbot or "other dps".

SupremeRissole

Agreed a lot of good raid leaders are not supports. But tanks usually have the best knowledge of where the boss is going to be/what health they are at etc, so a lot of good leaders are also supports.

darkstar2084

i want to apologise tor my last comments in a thread like this, it wasn't directed alcast but joking about his detractors

kathandira

SirNom wrote: »

How boring would tanking and healing be if you had no buffs or debuffs to track. The game would die due to lack of healers and tanks. Roles of everyone in ESO is to support each other as much as possible because why would you not try to maximise the group damage? (Just to clarify, support means to help and helping would include taunting, healing, stacking adds, debuffing boss and buffing damage.) Makes no sense not to unless you were really squishy, in which case maybe go selfish until you learn and then slowly integrate group buffing and debuffing sets as a tank. Only reason not to buff and debuff when you are able is because you want to have an easy mode and it is just lazy. Some players in group will rightly not want to raid with you because you are not putting in the same amount of effort as they are which I see as fair enough. You just need to maybe find the right group for you that has the same views on how they want to play.

Hold block > Puncture > Hold block > Inner Fire > Hold Block. What a FUN rotation! lol

EvilBunny

The elitist minmaxer mentality will be present everywhere you go but I concur, Alcast, Blob and the like do not speak the gospel f'ing truth. They provide very standard builds which I go to for information and inspiration because what works for them does not always work for me. I'm only CP 430ish so I am for sure not the top of the game but my builds work for what I want them to do and I have fun.

The beauty of this game is in the sheer potential for build customisation and people lose sight of that because they want to be the very best like no one ever was, however they are the same ones that miss the subtleties of those builds and the 'why' of their workings. I think we all need to live by the ESO player's creed:

This is my build
There are many like it, but this one is mine...

Checkmath

I found it funny, when OP said, that he will write a document and send it to ZOS, so that they change the game...This is not gonna happen. The devs do not listen everyone just like this, they do not have the time to read every text they get from players. There are a few players in constant dialog with the devs and that is where most of the player feedbacks comes from.

But yeah good luck changing the game, just saying, that the old content will not change, so more dps still is the easiest way to complete existing content. The same goes for gear, if it gets not changed drastically. And since this all worked out for the game till now, probably nothing will change. Also future content will be cleared the easiest by boosting the group dps. Because more dps means less time doing fights, which therefore leads to less time being exposed to mechanics and dangerous stuff. Again leading to less chance of failing, since the longer the fight, the higher the chance to get caught in a mechanic.

This is currently the system and if this system of dungeons and trials does not change, also the way to solve the content will not change. Good luck with your "rebellion".

Lab3360

SirNom wrote: »

How boring would tanking and healing be if you had no buffs or debuffs to track. The game would die due to lack of healers and tanks. Roles of everyone in ESO is to support each other as much as possible because why would you not try to maximise the group damage? (Just to clarify, support means to help and helping would include taunting, healing, stacking adds, debuffing boss and buffing damage.) Makes no sense not to unless you were really squishy, in which case maybe go selfish until you learn and then slowly integrate group buffing and debuffing sets as a tank. Only reason not to buff and debuff when you are able is because you want to have an easy mode and it is just lazy. Some players in group will rightly not want to raid with you because you are not putting in the same amount of effort as they are which I see as fair enough. You just need to maybe find the right group for you that has the same views on how they want to play.

I agree. And I think advanced players or competitave players are good to do that. Its a choice. But when you start telling people in normal trials they need to run certain sets is ridiculous.

Kambo

Lab3360 wrote: »

My point exactly. Why try to play similar to someone who does not think like you do?

It's not so much playing exactly like another person and is more along the lines of getting a general idea of what is considered good. Following guides can be very beneficial to creating your own build based around your preferred playstyle. You get an idea of what certain abilities and item sets can give you and in turn you are able to form your own build using the information you've gathered.

Some people follow guides and they just so happen to be exactly in line with that person's preferred playstyle. Other people follow the guides to get a general idea of what certain things can offer and then work off of the information they've gathered. Other people do their own research and create their own builds. Alcast, and other people like him, do the latter option and then share those builds online for people to read.

I feel like it's unreasonable trying to devalue build guides for over-simplified reasons like they're for "lazy people" or "people who don't want to do their own research". No one thinks exactly alike. No one. That translates over to how people think about guides as well. There is no need to witch-hunt people for following guides for any reason. All they're doing with that is creating more of a gap in the community. It's like one person preferring waffles and the other preferring pancakes but instead of each recognizing their different opinions they yell at each other about which one is better and never come to any kind mutual understanding.

As for the people who are under the impression that the only builds that work are ones made by other people, I feel that's way too broad of an opinion, or even idea. Technically speaking any kind of build in the game is capable of working just fine. Some will do better than others, that is just a fact. But even then it's pretty close minded to just assume the only builds that will work are public ones posted online.

SirNom

Lab3360 wrote: »

SirNom wrote: »

How boring would tanking and healing be if you had no buffs or debuffs to track. The game would die due to lack of healers and tanks. Roles of everyone in ESO is to support each other as much as possible because why would you not try to maximise the group damage? (Just to clarify, support means to help and helping would include taunting, healing, stacking adds, debuffing boss and buffing damage.) Makes no sense not to unless you were really squishy, in which case maybe go selfish until you learn and then slowly integrate group buffing and debuffing sets as a tank. Only reason not to buff and debuff when you are able is because you want to have an easy mode and it is just lazy. Some players in group will rightly not want to raid with you because you are not putting in the same amount of effort as they are which I see as fair enough. You just need to maybe find the right group for you that has the same views on how they want to play.

I agree. And I think advanced players or competitave players are good to do that. Its a choice. But when you start telling people in normal trials they need to run certain sets is ridiculous.

Yeh in a normal trial you should have zero expectations. If you join a normal and that happens, just leave. I think it is rare to see people ordering others what to wear in a normal trial, I personally have never seen it.

tamrielwinner

some people will kick someone without much reason

FilteredRiddle

Yeesh. The condescension and name-calling is high...

Ultimately the “YouTube builds” are meant to serve two main purposes: they are meant to act as a baseline for new players, who do not understand the basics of a class of character that they have just created, or they are meant to serve as a baseline on how to achieve the highest DPS in group content, in a best case scenario (such as the boss being placed exactly where it needs to be). That is why most quality and highly followed YouTube builds offer options for the beginner player and advanced player, showing this is what you would do to begin with and this is what you would do towards the end. I have never seen a good YouTube creator say something along the lines of “this is the only way to achieve this DPS/ Tank survivability/Healer capability.“ No good YouTube creator worth their salt would say something like that, because they realize that there are a multitude of ways to achieve the goals which they are helping players achieve. The reality however, is that the set ups they provide are the easiest and potentially most effective ways to reach player goals. Does that mean that players should isolate and target other players that do not follow those builds? Absolutely not. However, it does give us insight into how people should be looking to pseudo formulate their builds.

Sitting on a high horse, saying how my build is superior, and how I am unwilling to help the group in any way, is far far worse than following a generally good build which can attack most content effectively. Neither is a great player headspace.

pod88kk

I feel like the"I play the way I want to play" players are usually far more ignorant than people who follow the 'meta'. But of course there are always exceptions.

We had a few people in our guild who ran their own builds & would shout at you if you suggested anything different. They would set up their builds so that they could tank(badly), heal(nope) & damage(barely) all on the one character... At the same time.
After a little while they eventually came around to our way of thinking & while they weren't running full meta gear they did enjoy content a lot more because they were able to get through it.

Realistically yes you can do most of the content in this game with 30k dps & that's fine. You will have to do more mechanics though because the 50k+ people will have burned passed you.

Some people don't get a lot game time & want to get through content as quick as they can so they can get it finished.

Also to the OP, being a tank and being the last one to wipe doesn't mean a thing. You've more health, of course you should be alive.

Claudman

pod88kk wrote: »

I feel like the"I play the way I want to play" players are usually far more ignorant than people who follow the 'meta'. But of course there are always exceptions.

We had a few people in our guild who ran their own builds & would shout at you if you suggested anything different. They would set up their builds so that they could tank(badly), heal(nope) & damage(barely) all on the one character... At the same time.
After a little while they eventually came around to our way of thinking & while they weren't running full meta gear they did enjoy content a lot more because they were able to get through it.

Realistically yes you can do most of the content in this game with 30k dps & that's fine. You will have to do more mechanics though because the 50k+ people will have burned passed you.

Some people don't get a lot game time & want to get through content as quick as they can so they can get it finished.

Also to the OP, being a tank and being the last one to wipe doesn't mean a thing. You've more health, of course you should be alive.

You need a bit a both IMO.
Follow the meta, but don't follow it mindlessly...One should also not state that the meta is "useless".
People who completely ignore the meta and don't bother to at least learn it first aren't going to learn anything when it comes to this game, while those who mindlessly follow a meta will only find themselves at the complaining end of a nerf which often slaps a meta down in most games.