Nirnhoned or Sharpened for Stam DPS with a 2H? PvE here, btw

Khivas_Carrick

As the title says, I play rather semi-casually and enjoy running around as a Stamplar with a 2H Mace. Atm I have Sharpened on the weapon and I was wondering which would be better; Sharpened or Nirnhoned?

This is for PvE stuff btw, which I know DW is better, so let me ask while I'm here: How much better is DW than 2H for PvE these days? Note, I'm not going DW, I'm just curious.

JobooAGS

Nirn would be better than sharpened as it boosts your heals along with more damage. Infused I think is overall better than both

Khivas_Carrick

I edited the title and OP to reflect that this is for PvE, so does what you said still stand, or?

JobooAGS

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I edited the title and OP to reflect that this is for PvE, so does what you said still stand, or?

If you are using 2h for pve, you definitely want an infused axe or sword, with the axe being better slightly. I think thay dw is about 2-5% better overall than 2h. Had a friend parse with dw and 2h and the difference was about 3k

Khivas_Carrick

That's actually not that bad/big of a difference, but can I ask why the sword or axe with Infused? Is there a particular enchant that goes with it?

JobooAGS

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That's actually not that bad/big of a difference, but can I ask why the sword or axe with Infused? Is there a particular enchant that goes with it?

Poison enchant or absorb stam if you need sustain. Axe for the free bleed. Maces are useless except in certain solo plays. Damage increase for swords is marginal, but more useful than a mace for pve. Infused due to how stupidly strong enchants are this patch

Khivas_Carrick

And here I was thinking the armor pen would be useful on bosses in vet content.

JobooAGS

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And here I was thinking the armor pen would be useful on bosses in vet content.

Mundus, cp and group should be providing the pen needed. Bosses have 18100 resists. Major fracture is 5280. Minor is 1360. Lover and divines is 4196. Alkosh is 3010 and infused crusher is about 2k (2.7 with torugs) both are done by tanks and argubaly major fracture too. This puts you at 15.8k pen meaning you only need about 2k from cp, or about 20-22 points

Khivas_Carrick

Well then ***, I guess I get to rework my stuff a bit, and that does make sense. Plus I always like to try new things. Thanks my guy.

Khivas_Carrick

Btw, bump just in case anybody else wants to chime in. I could always use more opinions

idk

JobooAGS wrote: »

Nirn would be better than sharpened as it boosts your heals along with more damage. Infused I think is overall better than both

For PvE Infused is the way to go. Sharpened was nerfed a couple years ago when Zos rebalanced weapon traits because sharpened was so BiS just to make infused BiS.

Second choice would be Nirn as the person above stated.

Khivas_Carrick

Man, what a time to be alive.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

JobooAGS wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That's actually not that bad/big of a difference, but can I ask why the sword or axe with Infused? Is there a particular enchant that goes with it?

Poison enchant or absorb stam if you need sustain. Axe for the free bleed. Maces are useless except in certain solo plays. Damage increase for swords is marginal, but more useful than a mace for pve. Infused due to how stupidly strong enchants are this patch

Mauls are better then swords. You get more damage. Swords get worse the more percentage amps you add, at max cp, you only get around 3.5% more damage. Using a maul, you only need to pen 1750 armor in pve to get more damage then a sword. . With a two hander, that is 20% of the armor after debuffs, you only need to have 8750 armor on the mob. You need less then ~9000 debuffs on the mob for the maulk to be better then a greatsword. You will not have ~9000 debuffs on the boss most of the time, unless you are part of a end game trial group, much less any other mob.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And here I was thinking the armor pen would be useful on bosses in vet content.

Mundus, cp and group should be providing the pen needed. Bosses have 18100 resists. Major fracture is 5280. Minor is 1360. Lover and divines is 4196. Alkosh is 3010 and infused crusher is about 2k (2.7 with torugs) both are done by tanks and argubaly major fracture too. This puts you at 15.8k pen meaning you only need about 2k from cp, or about 20-22 points

bosses have 18200. you will not have alkosh and crusher up 100% of the time in most content. it is illogical to think you would.

math to back me up-
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282353/#Comment_5282353

Masel wrote: »

There you go:



This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

that is done with a single one handed mace, i pressed for more info on what about 20% pen from a two hander, this is what he said-

A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

JobooAGS

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That's actually not that bad/big of a difference, but can I ask why the sword or axe with Infused? Is there a particular enchant that goes with it?

Poison enchant or absorb stam if you need sustain. Axe for the free bleed. Maces are useless except in certain solo plays. Damage increase for swords is marginal, but more useful than a mace for pve. Infused due to how stupidly strong enchants are this patch

Mauls are better then swords. You get more damage. Swords get worse the more percentage amps you add, at max cp, you only get around 3.5% more damage. Using a maul, you only need to pen 1750 armor in pve to get more damage then a sword. . With a two hander, that is 20% of the armor after debuffs, you only need to have 8750 armor on the mob. You need less then ~9000 debuffs on the mob for the maulk to be better then a greatsword. You will not have ~9000 debuffs on the boss most of the time, unless you are part of a end game trial group, much less any other mob.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And here I was thinking the armor pen would be useful on bosses in vet content.

Mundus, cp and group should be providing the pen needed. Bosses have 18100 resists. Major fracture is 5280. Minor is 1360. Lover and divines is 4196. Alkosh is 3010 and infused crusher is about 2k (2.7 with torugs) both are done by tanks and argubaly major fracture too. This puts you at 15.8k pen meaning you only need about 2k from cp, or about 20-22 points

bosses have 18200. you will not have alkosh and crusher up 100% of the time in most content. it is illogical to think you would.

math to back me up-
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282353/#Comment_5282353

Masel wrote: »

There you go:



This shows how much mitigation you have to achieve in order to reach the break-even point between a dagger and a mace.

This depends largely on the critical chance and critical damage you have. If your critical chance is low, a dagger is giving you more additional damage than in a scenario where you already have more critical chance.

Example: If you are a stamina sorcerer that has 50% critical chance before the 5% from the dagger is added, you'd be better off using a amce if your enemy with 18200 resistance has less than 7065 of debuffs on him. So in any case where that is not achieved, a mace will give you more damage than a dagger. If you have 64% critical chance prior to a dagger (if you are khajiit, use advancing yokeda or something similar), then you need 7719 of debuffs to benefit more from a dagger than a mace.

What I'm saying is that since the removal of Unique Penetration Debuffs, the border between thos weapons has been reduced significantly, since you can not obtain that amount of penetration as easily. On bosses yes, but in many trials where you are alone and Tanks will not debuff enemies enough (2nd Boss Upstairs vHoF, 4th Boss vHoF, vCR if you go in the shadow realm, vAS for protectors and minibosses etc), then you can also use a mace. Nightblades have a higher critical base chance due to their assassination passive, but also have higher critical damage.

that is done with a single one handed mace, i pressed for more info on what about 20% pen from a two hander, this is what he said-

A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

I forgot about the patch where we lost the base 100 pen so you're right about 18200 boss resists.

If this is the case, then swords need a buff. There is no reason to use one. Especially in pvp, where shields now have resists.

Would it be fair to assume a 70-80% alkosh uptime with a 80-9x% uptime on crusher?

Thank you for correcting.

Bladerunner1

I noticed you mentioned that you have a Mace.

The 2H maul reduces the resistance left on the target after resistance debuffs are applied. Major/Minor Fracture (5280/1320), Crusher (2100 infused or 2600 w/torugs), Alkosh (3000) are all the things things that apply a debuff, and they mostly apply to a single target at a time. That leaves behind 6000 resistance for a Mace to penetrate in the worst case scenario, which comes to around 2.4% damage buff. This case only comes up if you join a well oiled trial group using every possible resource to maximize DPS, and for that matter 2H already isn't doing the max damage anyway.

I find it rare to join any 4 player group that happens to have every single one of those debuffs. Leave off just Alkosh from that list and a maul beats a sword.

The 5% Sword buff is added to other damage multipliers, minor berserk (8%), mighty (~12%), master at arms or thaumaturge (~20%), minor slayer (5%). The effect of adding a damage multiplier to other multipliers instead of ...well...multiplying is you have a watered down buff. The 5% sword buff is really 3.5%. That's the damage buff against everything, single target and AOE. Remember mauls have a big damage buff against AOE targets that don't have Alkosh/Crusher/Minor Fracture/Major Fracture debuffs.

Great axes tend to add 1000 or so single target DPS when I try them, though I haven't really tried them much lately. If the bleed damage you measure is greater than 3-4% of your single target damage then maybe an axe is the way to go.

kylewwefan

You’re barely ever gonna see minor fracture casually unless there’s a Stamplar around. Alkosh is questionable in pugs. Same with Infused crusher with or without Tourgs.

I still like sharpened and precise even. It’s not very often if ever I play with such an optimal group to have all these things.

SodanTok

Many choices, many options. You have to tailor your options around people you play with, content you play and your goals.
Infused Greataxe? Definitely the best pick if you just want some more damage on dummy or single target bosses. But maybe you want to play to 2H strenghts and focus on more AoE DPS. If you do 4man content a lot there could be many situation with lack of penetration. Often you could have reason to go away to kill other stuff while tank is busy and you have no own Major Fracture debuff and so something like maul starts to become the best option. But that means you suddenly have already a lot of bonus penetration and when the stars align and you get to kill boss with all the debuffs adding another penetration (sharpened) on it just means waste. So you see other options. Maybe you are redguard, as a stamplar you are getting crit damage buff and with 2H and redguard your crit chance is low so you pick Precise. But if you are khajiit picking the Nirn could be equally strong option.

Khivas_Carrick

......Looking at this, since I do mostly 4man content, I'm going to be a total ass and put Infused on my mace and call it day lol

I'm really tired and kinda sick btw, so don't take me too seriously. I tried the 2H ax with Infused, and not gonna lie, it's kinda fun, but the dmg doesn't seem to drastic.

Btw;

kylewwefan wrote: »

You’re barely ever gonna see minor fracture casually unless there’s a Stamplar around. Alkosh is questionable in pugs. Same with Infused crusher with or without Tourgs.

I still like sharpened and precise even. It’s not very often if ever I play with such an optimal group to have all these things.

Of course it's up, I AM the Stamplar lol

But you guys do bring up good points on optimization. Thus I think a more rounded approach might be better suited for me. Ima keep the axe just in case I ever get back into raiding or the occasional trial, but for now, I think I might legit take that mace with Infused on it for *** and giggles.

Khivas_Carrick

Double post and I swear I'm not high (maybe a little high), but messing around and I went back to axe because it legit feels cooler lol

But what if, just hear me out, the Bleed that's built into axes was built into ALL 2H weapons period, and Axes got crit chance like Daggers in DWing do?

The logic is that these massive weapons will hit hard and carve open anything, and in the mace's case, cause internal bleeding, so why not have the bleed built into a default for heavy weapons, and the axes become the crit chance givers?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Double post and I swear I'm not high (maybe a little high), but messing around and I went back to axe because it legit feels cooler lol

But what if, just hear me out, the Bleed that's built into axes was built into ALL 2H weapons period, and Axes got crit chance like Daggers in DWing do?

The logic is that these massive weapons will hit hard and carve open anything, and in the mace's case, cause internal bleeding, so why not have the bleed built into a default for heavy weapons, and the axes become the crit chance givers?

I would rather see swords changed to crit chance and daggers crit hit damage.

Khivas_Carrick

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Double post and I swear I'm not high (maybe a little high), but messing around and I went back to axe because it legit feels cooler lol

But what if, just hear me out, the Bleed that's built into axes was built into ALL 2H weapons period, and Axes got crit chance like Daggers in DWing do?

The logic is that these massive weapons will hit hard and carve open anything, and in the mace's case, cause internal bleeding, so why not have the bleed built into a default for heavy weapons, and the axes become the crit chance givers?

I would rather see swords changed to crit chance and daggers crit hit damage.

Nah, that wouldn't really do much to close the gap between 2H and DW, but making it so 2H get a free DoT whereas DW gets to have variety in multiple enchants and traits....That makes sense to me.

I may have been high and did some stupid *** in my sickly stupor, but lord this idea was a good one.

ccmedaddy

No. The last thing this game needs is another source of zero-cost, RNG based bleed damage.

Khivas_Carrick

The last thing? There's so much *** that is wrong and could go wrong but a single bleed to close he gap between 2H and DW is what you worry about? lol

ccmedaddy

1) I don't think that would be enough to close the gap between DW and 2H in PvE. 2) It would, however, have a disproportionate impact on PvP because bleed dmg is very strong against players.

I'm all for buffing 2H to match DW. Adding another free bleed dmg is not it.

Khivas_Carrick

I don't exactly PvP so I'll just take your word for it