Undo + Battle Roar = disappointing

montjie

Quite an oversight (or a big middlefinger to dks if intentionally) to have an ult negate an important class passive like that.

With Corrosive Armor being like a round of russian roulette I was hoping Undo could be a nice replacement for a defensive ult (running 2h/dw so Spell Wall isnt an option) but this ult seems to negate the Battle Roar passive which kinda sucks considering the passive forms a big part of sustain and sustain just happens to be the thing you really need when in a pinch.

People argue Undo is working as intended but I disagree. BR procs on ult usage. Undo is an instant ult. For Undo to negate BR would mean that BR procs before the ult procs which doesnt make sense since BR cant proc without the usage of an ult. So yeah your stats get reset to what they were 4 seconds ago when you commit the act of activating Undo, but after that act, BR should proc granting you the resource gain.

Why does BR proc before the ult its supposed to proc of?
Kinda reminds me of how procsets do their damage first on the target instead of the attack that procced the procset.

React

This was confirmed to be working as intended on the summerset PTS

montjie

Could you link this particular confirmation because the only thread I found hadnt any official response in it.
Im curious as to why they decided to go down this path. Are conspiracy theorists right and is the hate for dk really that strong or is something else going on?

Defilted

The ultimate is rewinding you back in time four seconds. Four seconds before you hit the ultimate battle roar was not in use. So there is no way that using Undo would trigger BR. It makes no sense for this Ultimate to trigger BR to me just based off what the Ultimate is doing.

jaws343

Let's take any DK ult. Corrosive, Banner and Leap happen instantaneously, but they all have a time associated with them. Leap is probably the closest to compare since Banner and Corrosive are damage over time abilities and leap is immediate.

When you activate leap, BR is immediately applied. But, you still have a travel time before dealing damage. It is not instant. If BR procced only when you landed from Leap and not on activation, you would have an argument here. But it does not.

For Undo, your resources do not actually reset until the animation is complete. It does not happen on activation and you can actually be killed here if you are not careful or hit undo too late. You move back to the spot you were and then your resources reset. So even if BR activated on cast, Undo would just take that away because you did not have those resources 4 seconds ago. And since BR activates on cast and not on the completion of the ultimate, of course Undo and BR do not synchronize with one another.

Merlin13KAGL

It was done that way to keep it from being OP af. You don't get to get the resources back and the passive stats in addition to.

You choose if it's worth it based on positioning and stats, vs same positioning + Battle Roar.

Minno

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It was done that way to keep it from being OP af. You don't get to get the resources back and the passive stats in addition to.

You choose if it's worth it based on positioning and stats, vs same positioning + Battle Roar.

Yea it's also intended as a balance check on itself. It only returns your stats to what it was 4 seconds ago so it already doesn't count as a resource Regen type of spell (not sure why we thought otherwise as a community).

montjie

@jaws343
Yeah youre right. I hadnt tested it out in a controlled environment before, just did and youre absolutely right.
Would you also happen to know if this is just an oversight or they purposefully did this knowing it would disadvantage dks wanting to run the ult.

@Merlin13KAGL
How is this OP af?
Ive seen this argument swing by a couple of times but no1 ever seemed to have a logical explanation as to why.

Merlin13KAGL

Getting full resources back from previous timeframe + BS passive stats on top of that? How would that not be OP af?

It's working as intended. If you want to get down to technicality on it:

• You Ult
• You gets stats from battle spirit.
• Stats get reverted to previous time, because that's what that ult does.

It's the very reason you have to choose if it's worth it to use at any given time. You can even revert back to lower stats than you currently have if you use it wrong.

You don't get to get the benefit of both aspects. Battle Spirit is already very strong as it is.

Your proposed mechanic would not require choice (there would be zero potential downside), except for the positioning. It would be a significant stat return almost every single time on a DK.

jaws343

I will say, while the ult itself is not favorable with DK passives, having Temporal Guard backbarred is a pretty good route to go for defense. The Minor Protection is pretty solid.

montjie

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Getting full resources back from previous timeframe + BS passive stats on top of that? How would that not be OP af?

It's working as intended. If you want to get down to technicality on it:

• You Ult
• You gets stats from battle spirit.
• Stats get reverted to previous time, because that's what that ult does.

It's the very reason you have to choose if it's worth it to use at any given time. You can even revert back to lower stats than you currently have if you use it wrong.

You don't get to get the benefit of both aspects. Battle Spirit is already very strong as it is.

Your proposed mechanic would not require choice (there would be zero potential downside), except for the positioning. It would be a significant stat return almost every single time on a DK.

Full resources? Says who?
Isnt that just a matter of timing. If u were at full resources 4 secs ago and u pop an Undo, how would getting extra resources from BR be OP? You cant go higher than full no matter what class you play.
If you use Undo for repositioning how would getting 5k resources be OP. Is Leap also OP if you use it as a gapcloser or to reposition because of BR now?

The only argument I can come up with is that it would make dks have more forgiving resource tresholding. But the trade off is they most likely lose a huge part of their burst so i wouldnt consider that OP.

I get how Undo works. I get theres a small tactical part in using it and i like that about it. What im talking about is how the ult completely ignores a 'class unique' mechanic and i havent found an answer as to why this is so.
Now you say that the class would be too OP otherwise but you havent produced any proof of that other than some incredibly loose statement regarding resources.

montjie

jaws343 wrote: »

I will say, while the ult itself is not favorable with DK passives, having Temporal Guard backbarred is a pretty good route to go for defense. The Minor Protection is pretty solid.

Yeah thats the reason I slotted it. And figured I could do some shenanigans with the position reset also. Kinda glossing over the resource part assuming BR would just proc like on any other ult.
But yeah the MP and ability to get out of a pinch were the main pull factors to the ult.

I still think for defensive purposes its better than Corrosive. Its a good ult. I just think it sucks big time dks again lose some of their uniqueness because of it.

Ultimate_Overlord

montjie wrote: »

@jaws343
Yeah youre right. I hadnt tested it out in a controlled environment before, just did and youre absolutely right.
Would you also happen to know if this is just an oversight or they purposefully did this knowing it would disadvantage dks wanting to run the ult.

@Merlin13KAGL
How is this OP af?
Ive seen this argument swing by a couple of times but no1 ever seemed to have a logical explanation as to why.

How is it op? Because it cant not be op, duh.
Seriously though, while the interaction is working as intended, there is no reason for it to work this way balance-wise. Undo is not effective on dk any more than it is on a different class.
Here is why:
Explanation 1(for smart people who shouldnt need it):
A linear function + a linear function is a linear function.
Explanation 2(for less smart people):
Joe is a dk irl and gets 120$ at the start of the year (battle roar), then he has to wait for a whole year to get more money. He also gets 100$ in january (undo), then has to wait a whole year to get the money again.
Jane is a nb. She gets 100$ in january as well (undo). She also gets 10$ a month (siphoning strikes).
If you are not an illiterate idiot, you should understand by now that the 100$(undo) provide the same amount of income for both of them.

Tl;DR:
It is what it is, but dont try to justify undo not working with battle roar by mentioning balance. If you do, you are a moron. If you think you arent one, scroll up, read what i wrote and reconsider your opinion about yourself.

Sharee

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Getting full resources back from previous timeframe + BS passive stats on top of that? How would that not be OP af?

In the same way battle roar combined with any other ultimate effect is not OP af.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

There is president of ultis not procing other things, look at how many sets do not work with overload.

montjie

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is president of ultis not procing other things, look at how many sets do not work with overload.

President Trump? Nah on a more serious note.
It doesnt matter if theres a precedent or not. Its not about the rarity of ults not proccing stuff that should be procced. Im just looking for some kind of official explanation as to why its so in this case.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

montjie wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is president of ultis not procing other things, look at how many sets do not work with overload.

President Trump? Nah on a more serious note.
It doesnt matter if theres a precedent or not. Its not about the rarity of ults not proccing stuff that should be procced. Im just looking for some kind of official explanation as to why its so in this case.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412837/undo-and-battle-roar/p1

this was brought up during the pts, you are not the first one to think it should act different then it does. i stand by my comment. Some things are just not going to work.

montjie

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is president of ultis not procing other things, look at how many sets do not work with overload.

President Trump? Nah on a more serious note.
It doesnt matter if theres a precedent or not. Its not about the rarity of ults not proccing stuff that should be procced. Im just looking for some kind of official explanation as to why its so in this case.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412837/undo-and-battle-roar/p1

this was brought up during the pts, you are not the first one to think it should act different then it does. i stand by my comment. Some things are just not going to work.

Did you even read what I said??

Merlin13KAGL

Sharee wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Getting full resources back from previous timeframe + BS passive stats on top of that? How would that not be OP af?

In the same way battle roar combined with any other ultimate effect is not OP af.

DK's having built in resource return on every other ultimate does not somehow equate to a single dysfunctional ultimate, especially when half of that ultimate's purpose is all about returning to a prior state of resource.

Other ult's on DK have the side benefit of granting resource return, just as an an Argonian drinking a potion grants similar.

Allowing Battle Roar to work with this would make it obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class. It also would effectively defeat the function of the ult. (It is, in fact possible, to roll yourself back to less resources than you currently have, should you time it wrong.)

This ult does not damage. It does not heal, nor protect. It's sole design is all about two things.
Positioning + resources. Just because this ult effectively overshadows the built in DK passive does not make it broken. You choose to use it for more resources than you currently have, even if Roar had been added to current stats, and/or you use it for positioning advantage.

It does, in fact, work the same for DK as for any other class. If the benefit of the ult is of less use than another plus Battle Roar, then the choice is pretty clear.

The ult works exactly as it's stated on the tooltip. If that's not the function you're after, then choose a different ult.

TL;DR: For those still failing to grasp, it does not grant resources equivalent to the difference from 4 seconds prior, it resets the actual value. 4 seconds ago, your battle roar was not active.

Sharee

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Allowing Battle Roar to work with this would make it obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class.

Every ultimate is obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class, that's my point.

Leap does great damage and restores resources. Magma makes the DK near unkillable and restores resources. Those are fine.

But an ultimate that resets your character (which may or may not be helpful) and restores resources would somehow be unacceptably overpovered compared to the two above? Please.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It also would effectively defeat the function of the ult.

Whereas the ult defeating the function of battle roar is obviously fine. /rollseyes.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It does, in fact, work the same for DK as for any other class.

For all practical purposes, it does not. Because unlike every other class, a DK loses his built-in class regen mechanic when slotting it.

Saying it works the same for the DK is like saying a tripot works the same for an argonian after making the tripot not trigger the resourceful passive. Hogwash.

Merlin13KAGL

Sharee wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Allowing Battle Roar to work with this would make it obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class.

Every ultimate is obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class, that's my point.

Leap does great damage and restores resources. Magma makes the DK near unkillable and restores resources. Those are fine.

But an ultimate that resets your character (which may or may not be helpful) and restores resources would somehow be unacceptably overpovered compared to the two above? Please.

Clearly that's what the Devs determined, yeah. Apparently they decided for this one ult it would be too much. Again, with any other ult, resource return is a side effect. With this ult, it effectively amplifies the effect of the Ult. They wanted it to be a choice.

DK's already have at least three different passives for resource return. I'm pretty sure this fringe case will be ok.

This is the only ult in the game that is actually equal among the classes, and still some want to complain.

The fact that the gripe is basically that it's not more powerful on DK pretty much speaks for itself.

Feel free to peruse the PTS forum, as I'm sure this was covered at great length before they settled on the decision the chose.

Not everything has to favor one class, whatever class that may be.

Sharee

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Allowing Battle Roar to work with this would make it obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class.

Every ultimate is obviously stronger on DK's vs any other class, that's my point.

Leap does great damage and restores resources. Magma makes the DK near unkillable and restores resources. Those are fine.

But an ultimate that resets your character (which may or may not be helpful) and restores resources would somehow be unacceptably overpovered compared to the two above? Please.

Clearly that's what the Devs determined, yeah. Apparently they decided for this one ult it would be too much. Again, with any other ult, resource return is a side effect. With this ult, it effectively amplifies the effect of the Ult. They wanted it to be a choice.

I think the devs didnt have a choice really. Battle roar is coded to activate when the ult activates, not later. And reprogramming it just because of one ultimate is not worth it. Thus, "devs determined". This is a case of collateral damage, not intent. At least IMHO.