Changes to trade-off between penetration, weap/spell dam, resource pool?

PS4_ZeColmeia

So been on a break for awhile and was curious on if anything had changed on trade offs on these? I'll state what I used to know, what I'm trying to do, so you beast-mode calculators can help me conceptually.

For damage you used to have (penetration)+[(weap/spell damage)*10.5+{resource pool}]+[(crit rate)*(crit damage)]

and then you can mitigate it (resists)+(crit resist)

I'm obviously not trying to calculate damage with the above, just demonstrating what factors in.

My build is focused around base damage, ie negligible crit rate. I know that resists cap at 33.1k-ish (you can go over but only factors in once penetration has been subtracted from the resists) which is roughly 50%. Overland is about 10k resists and bosses/trials are 18k.

What I am trying to sort out is if there is a reasonable break point between penetration damage? I'm planning on MA & slotting dawnbreaker for about 23% increase in base damage and having around 35-40k resource pool but probably won't break 9k penetration between CP and mundus. What I'm trying to sort out is if I get a better return going nirnhorned on my weapon (since I have 23% increase to base damage) or going sharpened on my 2 hand weapon.

_____

Don't worry about doing a major calculation, just a bit more of a conceptual check on what would be a better choice.

One last question/factor: does empower calculate after all of the mitigation is accounted for or before?

Sparr0w

I've been running a nirn maul with spriggans. Don't know on the exact math tho.

Royaji

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

Sparr0w

Royaji wrote: »

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

@Royaji I'm guessing this is a PVP post, OP lists crit resist

Royaji

Sparr0w wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

@Royaji I'm guessing this is a PVP post, OP lists crit resist

Oh, that it seemed like he is planning on doing MA form his post... I guess I need to sleep more.

Minno

You do need to calculate, sadly. Sharp gold is 2752, what is your base tooltup in selecting nirn? I am going to assume 15k tooltip on nirn, 23% lower with sharpened.

If your target in PVE is around 18k armor? If you only penetration 9k worth of armor but can get a tooltip of 15k here is what happens:
18k armor minus 9k penetration is 9k armor left (0.8641 mitgation). Your 15k tooltip attack hits for non-crit:
15k * 0.8641= 12961.5 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
15k * 1.7 = 25500
25500 * 0.8641 = 22034.55 dmg

If you trade the 23% increase in base dmg for another 2752 penetration:

18k armor minus 11752 penetration is 6248k armor left (0.9056 mitgation). Your 11550k tooltip attack hits for non-crit:
11550k * 0.9056= 10459.68 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
11550k * 1.7 = 19635
19635 *0.9056= 17781.456 dmg

Looks like you want nirn, if not using maul. I assume you arent using major fracture either. If you use both the calculation is different; you need to subtract any major/minor fracture first then multiply the 20% armor debuff from maul, and finally subtract CP+Sharp+mundas sources.

As another user said, they use nirn maul with spriggans. I assume they are also using major fracture. Here is the penetration with maul+spriggans+major fracture

18k armor is subtracted by 5280 fracture. 12720 armor left. Then multiplied by 20% is 2544 penetration. 12720k minus 2544 is 10176k armor left. Finally subtract the 9k penetration from CP+Mundas leaves us with 1176 armor (0.98224 mitgation).

Assuming they can get a 15k tooltip attack since they have nirn, they hit for 15k non-crit:
15k * 0.98224= 14733.6 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
15k * 1.7 = 25500
25500 * 0.98224 = 25047.12 dmg

Therefore we can see nirn+maul+major fracture+CP+mundas will get you closer to your tooltip. These numbers are mostly assumed, especially since I dont remember the boss armor values off hand.

Sparr0w

Royaji wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

@Royaji I'm guessing this is a PVP post, OP lists crit resist

Oh, that it seemed like he is planning on doing MA form his post... I guess I need to sleep more.

Maybe I'm the one that needs more sleep... does say MA but follows up with 'for more base damage'... Only two I can think of is Mech Acuity and Master Architect, but read it as pvp stamblade I'm confused.

Minno

Royaji wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

@Royaji I'm guessing this is a PVP post, OP lists crit resist

Oh, that it seemed like he is planning on doing MA form his post... I guess I need to sleep more.

I thought the same. And didn't listen to him anyway as I provided a huge wall of calcs lol.

Royaji

Sparr0w wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

More penetration is the better choice as long as you are under the cap. After reaching the cap it becomes completely useless. Remember that "penetration" can also be applied through resistances-decreasing debuffs and you should account for them in your group/build.

vMA is a bit weird in that regard though. The resistances are not standardized and differ from round to round, mob to mob and even spell to physical. Don't quote me on that but last boss has something like 12k physical but 16k spell resistance. I'm not sure anyone ever bothered to figure it all out.

@Royaji I'm guessing this is a PVP post, OP lists crit resist

Oh, that it seemed like he is planning on doing MA form his post... I guess I need to sleep more.

Maybe I'm the one that needs more sleep... does say MA but follows up with 'for more base damage'... Only two I can think of is Mech Acuity and Master Architect, but read it as pvp stamblade I'm confused.

Exactly, and both Acuity and Architect are not really PvP sets.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Minno

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Sounds like you may want to take nirn and use 2h Maul. The 20% penetration, depending on the target, can be more than sharpened but nirn benefits your pelinal build better. Do the math to make sure. I wouldn't put it past you if you saw better dmg with that simple change.

Zeromaz

Minno wrote: »

You do need to calculate, sadly. Sharp gold is 2752, what is your base tooltup in selecting nirn? I am going to assume 15k tooltip on nirn, 23% lower with sharpened.

If your target in PVE is around 18k armor? If you only penetration 9k worth of armor but can get a tooltip of 15k here is what happens:
18k armor minus 9k penetration is 9k armor left (0.8641 mitgation). Your 15k tooltip attack hits for non-crit:
15k * 0.8641= 12961.5 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
15k * 1.7 = 25500
25500 * 0.8641 = 22034.55 dmg

If you trade the 23% increase in base dmg for another 2752 penetration:

18k armor minus 11752 penetration is 6248k armor left (0.9056 mitgation). Your 11550k tooltip attack hits for non-crit:
11550k * 0.9056= 10459.68 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
11550k * 1.7 = 19635
19635 *0.9056= 17781.456 dmg

Looks like you want nirn, if not using maul. I assume you arent using major fracture either. If you use both the calculation is different; you need to subtract any major/minor fracture first then multiply the 20% armor debuff from maul, and finally subtract CP+Sharp+mundas sources.

As another user said, they use nirn maul with spriggans. I assume they are also using major fracture. Here is the penetration with maul+spriggans+major fracture

18k armor is subtracted by 5280 fracture. 12720 armor left. Then multiplied by 20% is 2544 penetration. 12720k minus 2544 is 10176k armor left. Finally subtract the 9k penetration from CP+Mundas leaves us with 1176 armor (0.98224 mitgation).

Assuming they can get a 15k tooltip attack since they have nirn, they hit for 15k non-crit:
15k * 0.98224= 14733.6 dmg.

If it crit, however, for a 1.70 crit hit dmg modifer:
15k * 1.7 = 25500
25500 * 0.98224 = 25047.12 dmg

Therefore we can see nirn+maul+major fracture+CP+mundas will get you closer to your tooltip. These numbers are mostly assumed, especially since I dont remember the boss armor values off hand.

Holy moley! Can i send you some stats to number crunch for me when i’m available after work? I can theow you some gold

PS4_ZeColmeia

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Sounds like you may want to take nirn and use 2h Maul. The 20% penetration, depending on the target, can be more than sharpened but nirn benefits your pelinal build better. Do the math to make sure. I wouldn't put it past you if you saw better dmg with that simple change.

Isn't the penetration for physical damage only?

Minno

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Sounds like you may want to take nirn and use 2h Maul. The 20% penetration, depending on the target, can be more than sharpened but nirn benefits your pelinal build better. Do the math to make sure. I wouldn't put it past you if you saw better dmg with that simple change.

Isn't the penetration for physical damage only?

Yes. Are you damaging with both mag/weapon attacks? Or using utility with mag and damage with stamina?

Edit:
You said you are using pelinals with twice born star 5pc medium and dual destro.

Can you link your build via the build editor? I would like to see your stats.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Sounds like you may want to take nirn and use 2h Maul. The 20% penetration, depending on the target, can be more than sharpened but nirn benefits your pelinal build better. Do the math to make sure. I wouldn't put it past you if you saw better dmg with that simple change.

Isn't the penetration for physical damage only?

Yes. Are you damaging with both mag/weapon attacks? Or using utility with mag and damage with stamina?

Edit:
You said you are using pelinals with twice born star 5pc medium and dual destro.

Can you link your build via the build editor? I would like to see your stats.

Mind giving a link? Don't know where the build editor is.

I've used DW, Destro, 1h&S, and resto, but had to drop dw for now for psijic guild. When I tank I use both but for now DPS and healing is magicka

Mr_Wolfe

Here you go:

UESP Build Editor

PS4_ZeColmeia

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Thank you for the responses thus far. To fill in some gaps, I'm a hybrid and play all roles on my main (just missing 28 skill points from PvP). Specifically, I run Pelinal and am rounding out jewelry crafting to go with TBS as my second set.

I play like a mage but I run MA for better resists and the bonus to weapon damage (which then buffs my spell damage). The MA also gives nice bonuses to sneak (I'm a nightblade). I run fire and lightning destro.

My tool tip (obviously not in my final gear while I'm finishing researching) fully buffed can get me to around 4.5k spell damage and I'm around 32-38k magicka. That's why my penetration isn't great without taking sharpened and/or using a debuff (class or destro). I usually, unless it's an organized group, weave with mages guild skills for the empowered buff on my LA and HA which makes them hit like a truck.

The genesis of the question is around trying to balance weapon trait, 2 Mundus, and what I ultimately enchant my gear with since this setup was impossible when left.

Sounds like you may want to take nirn and use 2h Maul. The 20% penetration, depending on the target, can be more than sharpened but nirn benefits your pelinal build better. Do the math to make sure. I wouldn't put it past you if you saw better dmg with that simple change.

Isn't the penetration for physical damage only?

Yes. Are you damaging with both mag/weapon attacks? Or using utility with mag and damage with stamina?

Edit:
You said you are using pelinals with twice born star 5pc medium and dual destro.

Can you link your build via the build editor? I would like to see your stats.

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Here you go:

UESP Build Editor

Soooo late on doing this (crazy work schedule) but here you are: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=103764

This is my regular run around build. I have a lot of skill points so I can customize to the group I'm in. i only enabled the buffs from my skill bar, obviously I can self source major brutality, empower and and minor berserk so these values still have room to go up.