Aldmeri Dominion Extermination Strategy (TES5)

Headmaster32

> Make a New Skyrim Character

> (blah blah blah fusrodah kill alduin blah)

> Love the Imperials, Love the Stormcloaks, Hate the Aldmeri Dominion

> Side with Stormcloaks because the Mede Empire is Divided & [Snip] by the Dominion

> Win the Civil War and gain Skyrim's Independence from [Snip] Empire & Aldmeri Dominion

> Do Dark Brotherhood Questline and kill Emperor [Snip] Mede II

> Form an Alliance with the bordering Province to the west that also won Independence (Hammerfell)

> Geographically lock off High Rock (one of the few remaining [Snip] Empire Provinces) from rest of Empire and negotiate a peace treaty / integrate it into the Alliance since the Breton's are more Political than militaristic & are locked off from their previous "allies" by two independent Provinces with strong military forces, giving them strategic incentive to side with you

> Go to Shornhelm in now-friendly High Rock and find the eldest male / most qualified ruler, (Legitimate Septim Descendant, see here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Andorak_Septim)

> Elect the Septim Ruler, the Rightful Emperor, The Warrior from the West, as the new Emperor of a New Empire, promising independence to all currently allied Provinces upon a full victory, and spread the news to other Imperials across the land to join the TRUE Empire, starting strong in the Northwest and free from the Dominion

> Literally be responsible for the rebirth of the Septim Empire, some next-level Targaryen [Snip]

> Dragonborn killed Emperor [Snip] Mede || back in Skyrim, so Septim Empire 2.0 sounds even more tempting to Imperials than [Snip] [Snip] Empire

> Rally as many forces as you can, combined with Hammerfell military, Stormcloaks, Imperials, and others, (spanning three-whole Provinces fighting under one Septim banner,) and push Dominion back to their safe space islands

> win TES V

"bUt UlFrIc RaCiSt"

[Edit to remove profanity]

Bruccius

This has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant posts I've seen in a long time.

Headmaster32

lol

VaranisArano

Or you could PVP in this game and literally try to exterminate the AD instead of role-playing fantasies of it post-Skyrim.

Blood for the Pact!

Headmaster32

They are gonna show up in the Fourth Era no matter what fam

Claudman

@Bruccius Ikr

@Headmaster32
I wouldn't side with someone who was potentially brainwashed during interrogation. Ulfic was interrogated by Elenwen (That Thamlor lady in Skyrim) herself, how do we even know that he even believes all the stuff that he's spouting? The Imperial Legion is better because they're more reliable because General Tulius outright says that he hopes to take the fight to the Dominion after the Stormcloak rebellion is over. By helping the Stormcloaks, you're only helping the Dominion because you've greatly weakened the Empire by taking out Tulius. This is what Elenwen had intended, this is why she was upset when Ulfric was about to be executed in the introduction (if you pay mind to the background chatter at the beginning, there is a mod which increases the volume of the conversation). The problem isn't that Ulfric is racist, the problem is that Ulfric is a pawn for the Thalmor and he doesn't even know that. The Empire doesn't need a Septim or the Stormcloaks to succeed, they just need a competent leader...I.e. the Dovahkiin. The Septim dynasty didn't exist during the time of Reman dynasty or the Alessian Order.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/thalmor-dossier-ulfric-stormcloak - He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape.

Headmaster32

In the very same document, Elenwen notes that a Stormcloak victory would also be debilitating, and of course it would be. They don't control the Stormcloaks.

A lot of Stormcloaks are actually skeptical of Ulfric anyways. No matter who you choose, at the end of the day, the Dominion is going to have some sort of advantage.

However, the plan I laid out is still perfectly viable, even if Ulfric is some sort of sleeper agent for the Dominion.

The question is, which side is going to turn out more reliable: the one where the Dominion occupies their home province and military, or the one where the Dominion brainwashed one, single leader?

I'd go for the latter.

(Also, ffs guys this post was meant to be humorous. Lower the salt.)

Headmaster32

See Ralof's dialogue in Riverwood's tavern.

Headmaster32

Another thing that should be noted, pertaining to how Elder Scrolls games work, lore-wise, from game-to-game:

Regardless of your choices and actions as a player, TES games usually paint the past games with a broad brush. It keeps things vague. (Outside of TESII, which just used a "Dragonbreak" to explain the multiple choice ending.)

For instance; even if you never did the Arena quests in TESIV, in the time of TESV, there was still a "Grand Champion of the Arena" who became undefeated. Was this your character from Oblivion? Was this someone else?

That depends on your individual headcanon I guess. But the point is: it still happened.

For instance, it is generally accepted that Sheogorath in TESV is actually the player character from TESIV in the fact that you become Sheogorath at the end of the Shivering Islands DLC for Oblivion.

Same thing. This concept is supposed to be true regardless of whether or not you played through that DLC as your character in TESIV. The option to claim otherwise is open to you as an individual player, with your own unique headcanon, by simply saying: "Sheogorath can't be my character from Oblivion, because my character in Oblivion never became Sheogorath."

Fair enough.

So anyways, my point is that Titus Mede II was assassinated in TESV, whether you the layer kills him or not.

This shouldn't be taken lightly if you plan on siding with the Empire.

(Besides, we all know the Dominion is probably going to be occupying Skyrim in TESVI.)

rexagamemnon

As long as the Empire rules over all of tamriel under an Imperial banner, im game.

rexagamemnon

Bruccius wrote: »

This has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant posts I've seen in a long time.

Care to elaborate?

TelvanniWizard

That´s unnecessary. The dragonborn alone could destroy the damm dominion by himself, effortlesly, so no need to complicate things that much.

JobooAGS

Headmaster32 wrote: »

Another thing that should be noted, pertaining to how Elder Scrolls games work, lore-wise, from game-to-game:

Regardless of your choices and actions as a player, TES games usually paint the past games with a broad brush. It keeps things vague. (Outside of TESII, which just used a "Dragonbreak" to explain the multiple choice ending.)

For instance; even if you never did the Arena quests in TESIV, in the time of TESV, there was still a "Grand Champion of the Arena" who became undefeated. Was this your character from Oblivion? Was this someone else?

That depends on your individual headcanon I guess. But the point is: it still happened.

For instance, it is generally accepted that Sheogorath in TESV is actually the player character from TESIV in the fact that you become Sheogorath at the end of the Shivering Islands DLC for Oblivion.

Same thing. This concept is supposed to be true regardless of whether or not you played through that DLC as your character in TESIV. The option to claim otherwise is open to you as an individual player, with your own unique headcanon, by simply saying: "Sheogorath can't be my character from Oblivion, because my character in Oblivion never became Sheogorath."

Fair enough.

So anyways, my point is that Titus Mede II was assassinated in TESV, whether you the layer kills him or not.

This shouldn't be taken lightly if you plan on siding with the Empire.

(Besides, we all know the Dominion is probably going to be occupying Skyrim in TESVI.)

Difference is that you can destroy the db and save the emperor, you get this quest by killing astrid instead of the 3 bound peeps

ezio45

All im saying is ad won the war until tiber septim came along and even he needed a giant mechanical robot to defeat the highelfs soooooo

VaranisArano

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

This has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant posts I've seen in a long time.

Care to elaborate?

Everyone knows that the Empire only exists because the Thalmor allow it to. The peace forged by the Concordat is not peace of necessity between equal nations, more like the calm before the next, deadlier storm. (To paraphrase Ondolemar)

JobooAGS wrote: »

Headmaster32 wrote: »

Another thing that should be noted, pertaining to how Elder Scrolls games work, lore-wise, from game-to-game:

Regardless of your choices and actions as a player, TES games usually paint the past games with a broad brush. It keeps things vague. (Outside of TESII, which just used a "Dragonbreak" to explain the multiple choice ending.)

For instance; even if you never did the Arena quests in TESIV, in the time of TESV, there was still a "Grand Champion of the Arena" who became undefeated. Was this your character from Oblivion? Was this someone else?

That depends on your individual headcanon I guess. But the point is: it still happened.

For instance, it is generally accepted that Sheogorath in TESV is actually the player character from TESIV in the fact that you become Sheogorath at the end of the Shivering Islands DLC for Oblivion.

Same thing. This concept is supposed to be true regardless of whether or not you played through that DLC as your character in TESIV. The option to claim otherwise is open to you as an individual player, with your own unique headcanon, by simply saying: "Sheogorath can't be my character from Oblivion, because my character in Oblivion never became Sheogorath."

Fair enough.

So anyways, my point is that Titus Mede II was assassinated in TESV, whether you the layer kills him or not.

This shouldn't be taken lightly if you plan on siding with the Empire.

(Besides, we all know the Dominion is probably going to be occupying Skyrim in TESVI.)

Difference is that you can destroy the db and save the emperor, you get this quest by killing astrid instead of the 3 bound peeps

Well, you can destroy all of the Dark Brotherhood that was present at the Sanctuary at the time and thereby prevent Astrid's plan for assassinating the Emperor.

However, since there's nothing actually stopping Motierre from performing the Black Sacrament since he presumably still wants Titus Mede II dead, or the Night Mother from calling an actual Listener from the remaining Brotherhood or a random adventurer, I have to agree with those who suspect that Titus Mede II will have been assassinated by a DB assassin eventually whether you did it or not.

JobooAGS

VaranisArano wrote: »

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

This has to be one of the most arrogant and ignorant posts I've seen in a long time.

Care to elaborate?

Everyone knows that the Empire only exists because the Thalmor allow it to. The peace forged by the Concordat is not peace of necessity between equal nations, more like the calm before the next, deadlier storm.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Headmaster32 wrote: »

Another thing that should be noted, pertaining to how Elder Scrolls games work, lore-wise, from game-to-game:

Regardless of your choices and actions as a player, TES games usually paint the past games with a broad brush. It keeps things vague. (Outside of TESII, which just used a "Dragonbreak" to explain the multiple choice ending.)

For instance; even if you never did the Arena quests in TESIV, in the time of TESV, there was still a "Grand Champion of the Arena" who became undefeated. Was this your character from Oblivion? Was this someone else?

That depends on your individual headcanon I guess. But the point is: it still happened.

For instance, it is generally accepted that Sheogorath in TESV is actually the player character from TESIV in the fact that you become Sheogorath at the end of the Shivering Islands DLC for Oblivion.

Same thing. This concept is supposed to be true regardless of whether or not you played through that DLC as your character in TESIV. The option to claim otherwise is open to you as an individual player, with your own unique headcanon, by simply saying: "Sheogorath can't be my character from Oblivion, because my character in Oblivion never became Sheogorath."

Fair enough.

So anyways, my point is that Titus Mede II was assassinated in TESV, whether you the layer kills him or not.

This shouldn't be taken lightly if you plan on siding with the Empire.

(Besides, we all know the Dominion is probably going to be occupying Skyrim in TESVI.)

Difference is that you can destroy the db and save the emperor, you get this quest by killing astrid instead of the 3 bound peeps

Well, you can destroy all of the Dark Brotherhood that was present at the Sanctuary at the time and thereby prevent Astrid's plan for assassinating the Emperor.

However, since there's nothing actually stopping Motierre from performing the Black Sacrament since he presumably still wants Titus Mede II dead, or the Night Mother from calling an actual Listener from the remaining Brotherhood or a random adventurer, I have to agree with those who suspect that Titus Mede II will have been assassinated by a DB assassin eventually whether you did it or not.

Well the db around tamriel was destroyed. The only 2(3?) Remaining sancturaries were in wayrest and skyrim. The wayrest one got invaded and destroyes by corasirs, therefore only skyrim remains

Aliyavana

or you can just be a good guy and kill ulfric.

Bruccius

@rexagamemnon
What is there to elaborate? This post is built around subjective and head-canon theories. They can't be taken seriously.

But sure, allow me to elaborate, his first personal reasons puting aside because they are really not worth anything:

''Form an Alliance with the bordering Province to the west that also won Independence (Hammerfell)''

There's no reason for any of the provinces to ally with Skyrim.

''Geographically lock off High Rock (one of the few remaining [Snip] Empire Provinces) from rest of Empire and negotiate a peace treaty / integrate it into the Alliance since the Breton's are more Political than militaristic & are locked off from their previous "allies" by two independent Provinces with strong military forces, giving them strategic incentive to side with you''

High Rock likes the Empire, and has no motif for abandoning it in favor of a weak Skyrim.

''Go to Shornhelm in now-friendly High Rock and find the eldest male / most qualified ruler, (Legitimate Septim Descendant, see here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Andorak_Septim)''

The entire Septim bloodline has died out, Shornhelm has no motif for aiding the Stormcloaks, if they were to do so, the other Kingdoms would invade it.

''Elect the Septim Ruler, the Rightful Emperor, The Warrior from the West, as the new Emperor of a New Empire, promising independence to all currently allied Provinces upon a full victory, and spread the news to other Imperials across the land to join the TRUE Empire, starting strong in the Northwest and free from the Dominion''

As said, there won't be a Septim ruler, due to the events of TES IV.

''Literally be responsible for the rebirth of the Septim Empire, some next-level Targaryen''

Refer to my above points.

''Dragonborn killed Emperor [Snip] Mede || back in Skyrim, so Septim Empire 2.0 sounds even more tempting to Imperials than [Snip] [Snip] Empire''

Dragonborn killing Mede is not canon. Even if it were the Dark Brotherhood that did so, Cyrodiil loves Titus Mede II, believing he saved them from certain death. They'd be up in arms against the Stormcloaks.

''Rally as many forces as you can, combined with Hammerfell military, Stormcloaks, Imperials, and others, (spanning three-whole Provinces fighting under one Septim banner,) and push Dominion back to their safe space islands''

The Dominion could have conqeured the entire Empire had they not signed the Concordat, this is canon. These ''allies'' are weaker than the Empire was at the time, especially Skyrim.

@VaranisArano
Motierre wouldn't perform the Black Sacrement if he thought the Dark Brotherhood were destroyed. Even so, the Dark Brotherhood as of TES V is rather weak, and doesn't really have the most skilled assassins.

Mede's death is pretty much established (they made him an old man for a reason), but it being an assassin that did the job? That's quite a lot of speculation. Do not forget that the Penitus Oculatus, in lore, are far more capable than they appear ingame.

rexagamemnon

Bruccius wrote: »

@rexagamemnon
What is there to elaborate? This post is built around subjective and head-canon theories. They can't be taken seriously.

But sure, allow me to elaborate, his first personal reasons puting aside because they are really not worth anything:

''Form an Alliance with the bordering Province to the west that also won Independence (Hammerfell)''

There's no reason for any of the provinces to ally with Skyrim.

''Geographically lock off High Rock (one of the few remaining [Snip] Empire Provinces) from rest of Empire and negotiate a peace treaty / integrate it into the Alliance since the Breton's are more Political than militaristic & are locked off from their previous "allies" by two independent Provinces with strong military forces, giving them strategic incentive to side with you''

High Rock likes the Empire, and has no motif for abandoning it in favor of a weak Skyrim.

''Go to Shornhelm in now-friendly High Rock and find the eldest male / most qualified ruler, (Legitimate Septim Descendant, see here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Andorak_Septim)''

The entire Septim bloodline has died out, Shornhelm has no motif for aiding the Stormcloaks, if they were to do so, the other Kingdoms would invade it.

''Elect the Septim Ruler, the Rightful Emperor, The Warrior from the West, as the new Emperor of a New Empire, promising independence to all currently allied Provinces upon a full victory, and spread the news to other Imperials across the land to join the TRUE Empire, starting strong in the Northwest and free from the Dominion''

As said, there won't be a Septim ruler, due to the events of TES IV.

''Literally be responsible for the rebirth of the Septim Empire, some next-level Targaryen''

Refer to my above points.

''Dragonborn killed Emperor [Snip] Mede || back in Skyrim, so Septim Empire 2.0 sounds even more tempting to Imperials than [Snip] [Snip] Empire''

Dragonborn killing Mede is not canon. Even if it were the Dark Brotherhood that did so, Cyrodiil loves Titus Mede II, believing he saved them from certain death. They'd be up in arms against the Stormcloaks.

''Rally as many forces as you can, combined with Hammerfell military, Stormcloaks, Imperials, and others, (spanning three-whole Provinces fighting under one Septim banner,) and push Dominion back to their safe space islands''

The Dominion could have conqeured the entire Empire had they not signed the Concordat, this is canon. These ''allies'' are weaker than the Empire was at the time, especially Skyrim.

@VaranisArano
Motierre wouldn't perform the Black Sacrement if he thought the Dark Brotherhood were destroyed. Even so, the Dark Brotherhood as of TES V is rather weak, and doesn't really have the most skilled assassins.

Mede's death is pretty much established (they made him an old man for a reason), but it being an assassin that did the job? That's quite a lot of speculation. Do not forget that the Penitus Oculatus, in lore, are far more capable than they appear ingame.

I still dont get why its arrogant and ignorant, its fan theory lore who cares. You seem to come across as if he’s racist or something.

VaranisArano

Bruccius wrote: »

rexagamemnon
What is there to elaborate? This post is built around subjective and head-canon theories. They can't be taken seriously.

But sure, allow me to elaborate, his first personal reasons puting aside because they are really not worth anything:

''Form an Alliance with the bordering Province to the west that also won Independence (Hammerfell)''

There's no reason for any of the provinces to ally with Skyrim.

''Geographically lock off High Rock (one of the few remaining [Snip] Empire Provinces) from rest of Empire and negotiate a peace treaty / integrate it into the Alliance since the Breton's are more Political than militaristic & are locked off from their previous "allies" by two independent Provinces with strong military forces, giving them strategic incentive to side with you''

High Rock likes the Empire, and has no motif for abandoning it in favor of a weak Skyrim.

''Go to Shornhelm in now-friendly High Rock and find the eldest male / most qualified ruler, (Legitimate Septim Descendant, see here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Andorak_Septim)''

The entire Septim bloodline has died out, Shornhelm has no motif for aiding the Stormcloaks, if they were to do so, the other Kingdoms would invade it.

''Elect the Septim Ruler, the Rightful Emperor, The Warrior from the West, as the new Emperor of a New Empire, promising independence to all currently allied Provinces upon a full victory, and spread the news to other Imperials across the land to join the TRUE Empire, starting strong in the Northwest and free from the Dominion''

As said, there won't be a Septim ruler, due to the events of TES IV.

''Literally be responsible for the rebirth of the Septim Empire, some next-level Targaryen''

Refer to my above points.

''Dragonborn killed Emperor [Snip] Mede || back in Skyrim, so Septim Empire 2.0 sounds even more tempting to Imperials than [Snip] [Snip] Empire''

Dragonborn killing Mede is not canon. Even if it were the Dark Brotherhood that did so, Cyrodiil loves Titus Mede II, believing he saved them from certain death. They'd be up in arms against the Stormcloaks.

''Rally as many forces as you can, combined with Hammerfell military, Stormcloaks, Imperials, and others, (spanning three-whole Provinces fighting under one Septim banner,) and push Dominion back to their safe space islands''

The Dominion could have conqeured the entire Empire had they not signed the Concordat, this is canon. These ''allies'' are weaker than the Empire was at the time, especially Skyrim.

@VaranisArano
Motierre wouldn't perform the Black Sacrement if he thought the Dark Brotherhood were destroyed. Even so, the Dark Brotherhood as of TES V is rather weak, and doesn't really have the most skilled assassins.

Mede's death is pretty much established (they made him an old man for a reason), but it being an assassin that did the job? That's quite a lot of speculation. Do not forget that the Penitus Oculatus, in lore, are far more capable than they appear ingame.

I mean, you can go with the theory that the Player Character is the only competent assasin the Dark Brotherhood could ever recruit.

I tend to go with the theory of, well, the Dark Brotherhood quest probably happened in one way or another, since Bethesda probably isnt going to destroy them as a faction for the next game. That means the Night Mother survived in both questlines (she did), and probably called a Listener in the Oculatus questline, and possibly assasinated the emperor anyway. (The timing of exactly when Motierre performed the Black Sacrament is uncertain - if it's after Astrid tries/fails to recruit the Player, then you've got a point, if it's earlier and we dont find out until later, that's still an active contract. He makes it clear he's been planning this a long time.)

As the 'possibly' indicates, that's speculation.

But then, so is the idea that Titus Made II, one of Tamriel's currently most hated guys and still blocking Motierre's ambitions, died peaceably in his bed because the Penitus Oculatus is just that good.

Bruccius

@VaranisArano
They wouldn't have lost practically all of their power if they were competent assasins.

Motierre started recruiting the Brotherhood following the death of Alain Dufont. That's the chronology. The destruction of the Brotherhood (aka, Astrid gets killed) takes place prior to that if we do not follow the Dark Brotherhood questline. And common sense would dictate that's the way the Dragonborn goes; unless if he's evil. After all, the Brotherhood actively tried to have him killed, then kidnapped him and ordered him to kill one (or all ) of three innocent people.

As a matter of fact, questlines don't take place unless confirmed they do. And we know that Commander Maro already knows the secret password to the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary. It's only a matter of time before he raids it.

Motierre has been planning this for a long time, yes. But if the Brotherhood is dead, he won't even attempt the Black Sacrament, because what purpose would it serve? There's no way that the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood will be able to kill three of the Emperor's own elite bodyguards and kill another small army of them at Falkreath, unless if it's the Dragonborn.

Mede is not ''most hated guys'', he's loved widely throughout the Empire, especially in Cyrodiil. Do not underestimate the Penitus Oculatus; they have destroyed a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary before.

Bruccius

@rexagamemnon
Arrogant because of his very tone.
Ignorant because he doesn't have a clue of what he's talking about.

VaranisArano

Bruccius wrote: »

@VaranisArano
They wouldn't have lost practically all of their power if they were competent assasins.

Motierre started recruiting the Brotherhood following the death of Alain Dufont. That's the chronology. The destruction of the Brotherhood (aka, Astrid gets killed) takes place prior to that if we do not follow the Dark Brotherhood questline. And common sense would dictate that's the way the Dragonborn goes; unless if he's evil. After all, the Brotherhood actively tried to have him killed, then kidnapped him and ordered him to kill one (or all ) of three innocent people.

As a matter of fact, questlines don't take place unless confirmed they do. And we know that Commander Maro already knows the secret password to the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary. It's only a matter of time before he raids it.

Motierre has been planning this for a long time, yes. But if the Brotherhood is dead, he won't even attempt the Black Sacrament, because what purpose would it serve? There's no way that the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood will be able to kill three of the Emperor's own elite bodyguards and kill another small army of them at Falkreath, unless if it's the Dragonborn.

Mede is not ''most hated guys'', he's loved widely throughout the Empire, especially in Cyrodiil. Do not underestimate the Penitus Oculatus; they have destroyed a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary before.

Yeah, sorry, yours is just as much speculation as ours.

Skyrim has a lot of mutally exclusive quest endings that won't be resolved until the next Elder Scrolls game.

Imperial vs Stormcloaks? We dont know.

Did the DB execute the Emperor or did they destroy the DB sanctuary instead, and what impact did that have on Titus Made II's death? We don't know what happened in "canon". Your answer is as much speculation as ours. Mutally exclusive quest endings and all that.

My speculation is that the DB either became the Listener and killed the Emperor, or the DB destroyed the Sanctuary and an assassin, possibly the new Listener, later killed the Emperor anyway, which preserves the general storyline of both quests without being mutally exclusive. But I dont work for Bethesda, so who knows?

I doubt Titus Made II's supposed approval rating in Cyrodiil is enough to save him from, you know, the Dominion, the Stormcloaks, and Hammerfall, which is why I said he was one of the most hated guys in Tamriel. It was Amaud Motierre's ambitions that brought him down in the DB quest, but there's plenty of people who have very good reasons to want the guy dead.

I also find your dismissal of the DB a little...simple. Even in the event of the Dragonborn siding with the Penitus Oculatus, the Night Mother and the cell of a new Sanctuary survive, arguably with the potential to be stronger than ever once they rebuild free of Astrid - as long as you don't assume that the Dragonborn is literally the only competent person around. But, as I said, speculation.

But frankly, I dont expect we're going to agree.

Mutually exclusive quest endings, speculation that wont be resolved until TES VI and all that.

So I'm about done arguing this, since there's no answers until the next TES game, and there's no point matching speculation vs speculation.

Have a great day!

Bruccius

@VaranisArano
''Imperial vs Stormcloaks? We dont know.''
Based on the lore we have we already have a pretty strong hint at who will win this war.

''Did the DB execute the Emperor or did they destroy the DB sanctuary instead, and what impact did that have on Titus Made II's death? We don't know what happened in "canon". Your answer is as much speculation as ours. Mutally exclusive quest endings and all that.''

The Brotherhood will be destroyed; the Dragonborn only participates in the main questlines, aside from that they do nothing. Only one thing takes place in both quests; the destruction of the Falkreath Sanctuary, and without a Dragonborn to save their skin, there won't be any big rebuilding. It's canon that Commander Maro knows the password to the Sanctuary, and it's canon that he's merely waiting for the right time to strike, no need for the Dragonborn.

The Stormcloaks are too weak to defeat even the weakest the Empire has to throw at them, Hammerfell acknowledges the Empire is needed to truly defeat the Dominion, so that only leaves one; namely, the Dominion.

The Night Mother can only speak to those in close proximity to her, and considering Cicero is paranoid, he is not going to let anyone else into the Dawnstar Sanctuary. The Brotherhood sent numerous assassins out on the Dragonborn, give him one good reason to join them.

JobooAGS

Bruccius wrote: »

@VaranisArano
''Imperial vs Stormcloaks? We dont know.''
Based on the lore we have we already have a pretty strong hint at who will win this war.

''Did the DB execute the Emperor or did they destroy the DB sanctuary instead, and what impact did that have on Titus Made II's death? We don't know what happened in "canon". Your answer is as much speculation as ours. Mutally exclusive quest endings and all that.''

The Brotherhood will be destroyed; the Dragonborn only participates in the main questlines, aside from that they do nothing. Only one thing takes place in both quests; the destruction of the Falkreath Sanctuary, and without a Dragonborn to save their skin, there won't be any big rebuilding. It's canon that Commander Maro knows the password to the Sanctuary, and it's canon that he's merely waiting for the right time to strike, no need for the Dragonborn.

The Stormcloaks are too weak to defeat even the weakest the Empire has to throw at them, Hammerfell acknowledges the Empire is needed to truly defeat the Dominion, so that only leaves one; namely, the Dominion.

The Night Mother can only speak to those in close proximity to her, and considering Cicero is paranoid, he is not going to let anyone else into the Dawnstar Sanctuary. The Brotherhood sent numerous assassins out on the Dragonborn, give him one good reason to join them.

I guess hammerfell remains seperate with the Empire (bitter even; as if they stayed, they would have to lose alot of land) until the empire and the dominion go to war again

VaranisArano

Bruccius wrote: »

@VaranisArano
''Imperial vs Stormcloaks? We dont know.''
Based on the lore we have we already have a pretty strong hint at who will win this war.

''Did the DB execute the Emperor or did they destroy the DB sanctuary instead, and what impact did that have on Titus Made II's death? We don't know what happened in "canon". Your answer is as much speculation as ours. Mutally exclusive quest endings and all that.''

The Brotherhood will be destroyed; the Dragonborn only participates in the main questlines, aside from that they do nothing. Only one thing takes place in both quests; the destruction of the Falkreath Sanctuary, and without a Dragonborn to save their skin, there won't be any big rebuilding. It's canon that Commander Maro knows the password to the Sanctuary, and it's canon that he's merely waiting for the right time to strike, no need for the Dragonborn.

The Stormcloaks are too weak to defeat even the weakest the Empire has to throw at them, Hammerfell acknowledges the Empire is needed to truly defeat the Dominion, so that only leaves one; namely, the Dominion.

The Night Mother can only speak to those in close proximity to her, and considering Cicero is paranoid, he is not going to let anyone else into the Dawnstar Sanctuary. The Brotherhood sent numerous assassins out on the Dragonborn, give him one good reason to join them.

Yeah, like I said, we're going to disagree, and there's little point in arguing over it. Especially when you're ignoring the whole bit that the other Sanctuary is not destroyed, the Night Mother is fully capable of calling another Listener, and plenty of Dragonborn player character s did join the DB despite having assassins sent out after them.

I mean, my Dragonborn was an Altmer who joined the Stormcloaks, killed Tullius, tossed the Empire out of Skyrim, and was Archmage, Nightingale, and Listener who killed the Emperor. So, as you can imagine, I'm interested in how Bethesda intends to resolve those quests in future lore, because an Imperial supporting Dragonborn who destroyed the Falkreath Sanctuary will probably have a different opinion on how history should play out.


That's why my speculation continues to be as follows:

Either a Dragonborn Listener kills the Emperor
Or
The Falkreath Sanctuary is destroyed by the Dragonborn, but a new Listener is called by the Night Mother, ensuring that the DB continues as a faction for the next game AND the emperor is assassinated by someone or other

Thus
No matter what choice the Player made, the DB survives as a faction for the next game and the emperor was assassinated, resolving both questlines without being mutually exclusive in the history books. Its nice and vague and, unlike your speculation, doesnt invalidate any of the choices that Players made.

But I'm repeating mself, and I grow tired of it. Hopefully I've clarified my points enough to be clear. Otherwise I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Bruccius

@VaranisArano
The problem is that in your scenario the Dragonborn participates in quests that we have no reason to assume he got involved in. They are quests the Dragonborn was not required in.

Your Dragonborn follows that playstyle, but that's not the lore Bethesda follows. Bethesda makes the protagonist complete the main quest(s), aka, main questline +DLC main questline, anything aside from that, if completed, is done by someone else.

For this reason, the fact that Commander Maro already knows the Dark Brotherhood password shows that they will be wiped out. The Dragonborn is capable against the Penitus Oculatus, the rest of the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, as we can see if we join the Brotherhood, is not.

VaranisArano

Bruccius wrote: »

@VaranisArano
The problem is that in your scenario the Dragonborn participates in quests that we have no reason to assume he got involved in. They are quests the Dragonborn was not required in.

Your Dragonborn follows that playstyle, but that's not the lore Bethesda follows. Bethesda makes the protagonist complete the main quest(s), aka, main questline +DLC main questline, anything aside from that, if completed, is done by someone else.

For this reason, the fact that Commander Maro already knows the Dark Brotherhood password shows that they will be wiped out. The Dragonborn is capable against the Penitus Oculatus, the rest of the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, as we can see if we join the Brotherhood, is not.

So if "everything else is completed by someone else", then by your logic, it makes perfect sense for my speculation that, following the destruction of Falkreath Sanctuary, the Night Mother recruits a competent Listener who kills the Emperor. Because Maro destroyed the Falkreath Sanctuary, he didn't destroy the Brotherhood - we know certain members escape even if the Dragonborn wipes out Falkreath.

So, that quest gets completed, just by someone else. That's the entire point of my speculation if the Dragonborn doesn't do that quest or avoids the whole situation by never talking to Aventus Aretino.

Either the Dragonborn becomes the Listener or someone else does.

Either the Dragonborn Listener assasinates Titus Mede II or someone else does, possibly the new Listener, possibly one of the people with a grudge against Titus Mede II. The Dragonborn is not the only conpetent assassin in Tamriel - that's silly.

So unless I'm misunderstanding you, it sounds like we agree that "someone else" could do the DB quest, becoming the new Listener. Its just that you think that no one but the Dragonborn could possibly succeed in killing the Emperor?

If that's the case, again, I can tell you we'll disagree on that. Where there's a will, there's a way, and Titus Mede II has a lot of enemies, IMO.

Bruccius

@VaranisArano
How can the Night Mother ''recruit'' a competent Listener when she is stuck on the road?

What do you think Cicero will do when he finds the Falkreath Sanctuary burned down?
I'll tell you what, the very thing he implies in his journals; fall back to the Dawnstar Sanctuary.

The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim is weak. This is a fact. There's a reason why they have so greatly dimished in power and respect, because they've lost their ways. Nobody fears them, and for good reason.

Your idea that ''someone assassinates the Emperor'' is unfounded, as the only way for this to take place is for the Last Dragonborn to join the Brotherhood. The other Brotherhood assassins were rather easily wiped out by the Penitus Oculatus. Or did you miss the pile of bodies within the sanctuary upon discovering Maro's plot?

VaranisArano

Bruccius wrote: »

@VaranisArano
How can the Night Mother ''recruit'' a competent Listener when she is stuck on the road?

What do you think Cicero will do when he finds the Falkreath Sanctuary burned down?
I'll tell you what, the very thing he implies in his journals; fall back to the Dawnstar Sanctuary.

The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim is weak. This is a fact. There's a reason why they have so greatly dimished in power and respect, because they've lost their ways. Nobody fears them, and for good reason.

Your idea that ''someone assassinates the Emperor'' is unfounded, as the only way for this to take place is for the Last Dragonborn to join the Brotherhood. The other Brotherhood assassins were rather easily wiped out by the Penitus Oculatus. Or did you miss the pile of bodies within the sanctuary upon discovering Maro's plot?

Yeah, that's essentially what I'm expecting, in the case where the Dragonborn doesnt join the DB. Maro destroys the Falkreath Sanctuary, Cicero falls back on the Dawnstar Sanctuary, and someone else becomes the Listener. Nazir and Babette are still alive as well, in both instances of the quest. My reasoning is that I expect Bethesda wants the DB to survive as a faction for the next games, and having "someone" assassinate Titus Mede II solves both playthroughs, whether its the Dragonborn or not.

And again, we disagree that the Dragonborn is literally the only person in Tamriel who is capable of assasinating Titus Mede II. There's plenty of people who hate him, and therefore plenty of people who recruit more capable assasins that, Astrid's dead Sanctuary to defeat him.

Titus Mede II is dead in my playthrough. Assassinated. Bethesda had better have a pretty good lore excuse if he isn't assassinated by somebody.

@Bruccius, I'm going to be blunt. We've gone round and round this all day. I'm glad we could both have a good conversation about a game we clearly both enjoy, but I'm done.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and have a great evening!