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The Enchant "fix"

NuarBlack
NuarBlack
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Maybe I'm late to the party as PS4 just got the enchant "fix" or the change so that enchants don't proc off of dots but I feel like this only hurt non DW builds and hasn't done much to curb DW torug builds.

For example I can run torug builds on both my stamDK and my magDK and prior to the "fix" I was loving my magDK setup. I felt like a legit fire mage and it felt fair as I had to run destro/destro with only coagulated for a heal or embers if I messed up and got in melee range. But with clench I had better up time on back bar enchant and made it feel like a worthwhile mag dot. It was the most fun I was having in a long time. Post "fix" I can still use WoE to proc back bar enchant but not nearly as effective and my build has become all but useless now, at least if I want to keep the fire mage flavor I loved(I have some ideas to make it viable again).

My Torug build for my stamDK only took swapping one set and a spammable and it probably does more damage and is even burstier. I just have to front bar DW and use Flurry instead. I was using Morag Tong or Werewolf Hide as my other set before. Now I swapped to Red Mountain so Carve ticks on the back bar are still helping to proc something. I've lost ult generation or claw damage is all. Still feels way stronger than any other setup on my stamDK and can only imagine it is still way strong on other classes. Making me think the fix didn't really fix the problem.

Now I get something needed to be done about DW torugs bleed builds. But I honestly thought the original enchant fix was a good idea to help out 2h and destro but yet again it had unintended consequences for DW. So I'm wondering if a compromise between the two could work? I don't like the idea of nerfing enchants or tourags directly or for 1h weapons as some have suggested. I like that DW has the perk of an extra enchant as well as the concern it would have on tanks. But maybe something like weapon skill dots only proc the main hand enchant instead of both?
Edited by NuarBlack on November 30, 2018 2:16AM
  • Nerftheforums
    Nerftheforums
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    I would QQ hard, but you probably started playing in the last 6 moths or sometjing like that. Because of this, I'll keep it short and civil: no, free damage is cancerous af, and should not be a thing so strong. Thieves guild, 1t, dragonbones, summerset, murkmire, etc. showed it quite clearly how bad this thing is. The fact that our combat lead designer sees it differently says A *** LOT, but that's another issue.
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    I would QQ hard, but you probably started playing in the last 6 moths or sometjing like that. Because of this, I'll keep it short and civil: no, free damage is cancerous af, and should not be a thing so strong. Thieves guild, 1t, dragonbones, summerset, murkmire, etc. showed it quite clearly how bad this thing is. The fact that our combat lead designer sees it differently says A *** LOT, but that's another issue.

    Cool story but I actually started on PC at launch and migrated to PS4 for the larger player base and to not be hunched over a keyboard even though it technically controls better I still like kicking back with a controller and large screen TV. I can log onto my PC account and screen shot the little pet they gave everyone that had stuck with them for the first year and the game was rough if you like?

    Anyway now that your elitism has been dealt with. My point wasn't that I support free damage or anything of the sort. My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way. Once they fixed that, I also agree this had bad consequences for DW torug and that needed something done about it. My point was is that DW torug can still be cancer with a few minor adjustments while eliminating options elsewhere as I explained. I wish other builds were viable more than most I guarantee it. I'm running out of inventory and bank space hoarding gear that I hope will one day be relevant or that a good cp enabled pvp mode will happen.
    Edited by NuarBlack on November 30, 2018 2:05PM
  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    Edited by Aznox on November 30, 2018 2:06PM
    Aznox
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  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    It was my understanding that not all weapon skills were proccing them reliably cause thats how we ended up with the dots proccing them from murkmire to the incremental. Also I think they made melee class skills proc enchants as well for murkmire. They used to only proc off of light attack weaves.
  • raasdal
    raasdal
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    Yup. Torugs + Flurry is all you need to melt anyone, at least in BG's.
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    DoTs will proc Enchant and as you mentioned, it will do so reliably. They fixed all the "non-active" backbar DoTs, to NOT proc. But active frontbar DoTs will still proc. Like Flurry. Or a heavy Resto / Lightning attack.

    What this means is, that even if your LA miss or you did not get the weave correctly, your Flurry is guaranteed to proc both enchants. Every time.

    On my Stamsorc i currently run Torugs as the ONLY offensive set. I pair it with Troll King, Willows Path and all recover enchants, steed mundus etc. Insane sustain and survivability. Torugs provides so much damage on my Flurry spam, that i can reliably kill even tankier targets.
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  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    NuarBlack wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    It was my understanding that not all weapon skills were proccing them reliably cause thats how we ended up with the dots proccing them from murkmire to the incremental. Also I think they made melee class skills proc enchants as well for murkmire. They used to only proc off of light attack weaves.

    No.

    Pre-murkmire enchant procs :
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (except berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (except berserker glyph)
    - bug : dual wield was randomly trying (and failing) to proc the same enchant multiple times while it was on cooldown

    Current murkmire patch (after several intermediate fixes)
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (including berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (including berserker glyph)


    raasdal wrote: »
    Yup. Torugs + Flurry is all you need to melt anyone, at least in BG's.
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    DoTs will proc Enchant and as you mentioned, it will do so reliably. They fixed all the "non-active" backbar DoTs, to NOT proc. But active frontbar DoTs will still proc. Like Flurry. Or a heavy Resto / Lightning attack.

    Only ground based DoTs proc enchants, Flurry is an exception they made and Resto/Lightning HA are ... heavy attacks.
    Edited by Aznox on November 30, 2018 4:23PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
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  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    It was my understanding that not all weapon skills were proccing them reliably cause thats how we ended up with the dots proccing them from murkmire to the incremental. Also I think they made melee class skills proc enchants as well for murkmire. They used to only proc off of light attack weaves.

    No.

    Pre-murkmire enchant procs :
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (except berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (except berserker glyph)
    - bug : dual wield was randomly trying (and failing) to proc the same enchant multiple times while it was on cooldown

    Current murkmire patch (after several intermediate fixes)
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (including berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (including berserker glyph)


    raasdal wrote: »
    Yup. Torugs + Flurry is all you need to melt anyone, at least in BG's.
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    DoTs will proc Enchant and as you mentioned, it will do so reliably. They fixed all the "non-active" backbar DoTs, to NOT proc. But active frontbar DoTs will still proc. Like Flurry. Or a heavy Resto / Lightning attack.

    Only ground based DoTs proc enchants, Flurry is an exception they made and Resto/Lightning HA are ... heavy attacks.

    Well maybe it was just berserk I was thinking of cause that is the big change I noticed is that I could cast clench and bar swap after murkmire where before I had to light attack. To be honest I guess I never really paid much attention to other enchants and they just all seemed to proc more reliably after murkmire but the beserk change would fit the significant or different change you asked for still.
    Edited by NuarBlack on November 30, 2018 4:47PM
  • raasdal
    raasdal
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    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    It was my understanding that not all weapon skills were proccing them reliably cause thats how we ended up with the dots proccing them from murkmire to the incremental. Also I think they made melee class skills proc enchants as well for murkmire. They used to only proc off of light attack weaves.

    No.

    Pre-murkmire enchant procs :
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (except berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (except berserker glyph)
    - bug : dual wield was randomly trying (and failing) to proc the same enchant multiple times while it was on cooldown

    Current murkmire patch (after several intermediate fixes)
    - light and heavy attacks
    - direct damage from weapon skill lines (including berserker glyph)
    - damage from weapon skill lines ground based DoTs (including berserker glyph)


    raasdal wrote: »
    Yup. Torugs + Flurry is all you need to melt anyone, at least in BG's.
    Aznox wrote: »
    NuarBlack wrote: »
    My point was that prior to murkmire enchants were kinda buggy in that they procced off of some things but not others in a non congruent way.

    Can you list anything about enchants procs that is different in current patch compared to pre-murkmire, outside of dw reliably proc'ing the enchant that is not on cooldown ?

    DoTs will proc Enchant and as you mentioned, it will do so reliably. They fixed all the "non-active" backbar DoTs, to NOT proc. But active frontbar DoTs will still proc. Like Flurry. Or a heavy Resto / Lightning attack.

    Only ground based DoTs proc enchants, Flurry is an exception they made and Resto/Lightning HA are ... heavy attacks.

    As i see it, they never changed the logic. Weapon DoT's will still proc the enchants. Except those few skills they named out. That is why the Werewolf Bleed is broken in that regard. Because they never actually changed back the logic, to only proc on Direct Damage. Enchants WILL still proc on DoT damage now - just not on those few skills they "named and shamed".
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  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    Enchants will still proc on weapon skill lines ground based DoTs.

    The most recent fix didn't remove it from "just a few", they removed it from any DoT damage that didn't answer this definition except Flurry (an eternal edge-case because it's also a channel) and Werewolf bleed (acknowledged bug, will be fixed soon)

    Now you can open a bug thread about flurry if you think it was unintended, but everything else makes perfect sense.
    Edited by Aznox on November 30, 2018 6:46PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
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  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    there are two types of PvP players in ESO: those that use procs for the “free damage”, and those that complain about losing.
  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    there are two types of PvP players in ESO: those that use procs for the “free damage”, and those that complain about losing.

    ahah i'm currently refining a double DW build that needs bar-swapping once per second to proc all enchants on cooldown, i think that puts me in the first category :trollface:
    Aznox
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  • Koolio
    Koolio
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    I can definitely see the reasoning behind the enchant change. There are multiple things that reduce those cooldowns.

    But why poisons too. They can only proc once per ten seconds

    Generally curious
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    Koolio wrote: »
    I can definitely see the reasoning behind the enchant change. There are multiple things that reduce those cooldowns.

    But why poisons too. They can only proc once per ten seconds

    Generally curious

    I've wondered myself. My guess is they think poisons are strong already. There is the crafted set assassins guile that extends their effects through. I wish there were more poisons that benefited mag players as poisons seem to shine better on 2h weapons where DW definitely has the enchant advantage.
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    there are two types of PvP players in ESO: those that use procs for the “free damage”, and those that complain about losing.

    I'm not against proc damage or "free damage" myself. I just have a problem with it being the only viable option cause they have nerfed everything else. I'm a fan of low TTK so long as the mode isn't the horse simulator known as cyro. The fact that a templar healer can make a team unkillable is not good design.
  • Hochstapler
    Hochstapler
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    I used Torug's on a StamDK before the enchant fiasco, I stoped during the fiasco and I picked it up again after the fix and my opinion is that after two nerfs they hit the sweet spot, it's just right atm.
    Remember, Torugs is only really viable on a DW build.
    I wish it had WD instead of SD but oh well.
    It's a good set that provides a punch to a tanky heavy armor build but you do have to drop either S&B or 2H for it, which is a fair trade-off and from a StamDK point of view at least, this makes it a balanced set.

    So, if enchants are balanced on a armor set that amplifies them, it means that the job is well done but it also means that they aren't anything special on a non-specialized armor which is exactly how it should be if we want any meaningfull offence-defence balance.

    Edited by Hochstapler on December 1, 2018 11:07AM
    I care about your gaming "problems" and teenage anxieties, just not today.
  • raasdal
    raasdal
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    That is not entirely accurate.

    - First they change so that Enchants proc on all relevant damage. Direct and DoT.
    - Then they change and say that "Single Target DoT's" will no longer proc it, and they list all the relevant Skills (Poison Injection etc.)

    So the game engine logic is NOT like before, where it was only Direct damage that would proc. The NEW logic is stil that all damage, Direct or DoT, will proc it. EXCEPT for "Single Target DoT's".

    The end result is the same. We both agree, that besides from the WW bug and Flurry, the current situation is that only Ground Based DoT's will proc it. But due to the logic, it is very very very possible that there are OTHER "bugs" or unintended behaviour - like the WW Bleed. This is important for Theorycrafters, as it allows you to search out those niche weird things.
    Aznox wrote: »
    Enchants will still proc on weapon skill lines ground based DoTs.

    The most recent fix didn't remove it from "just a few", they removed it from any DoT damage that didn't answer this definition except Flurry (an eternal edge-case because it's also a channel) and Werewolf bleed (acknowledged bug, will be fixed soon)

    Now you can open a bug thread about flurry if you think it was unintended, but everything else makes perfect sense.

    Edited by raasdal on December 1, 2018 8:03PM
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  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    @raasdal did you miss the part where ground based DoTs were already proc'ing enchants before Murkmire ?
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
    I live in Battlegrounds
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