Genuinely curious about the use of certain addons

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Before anyone goes all psycho in the thread, i think many of the addons PC has are brilliant and help to enhance the game.

There are however some addons which in my personal opinion cheapen the game experience and the achievements obtained using them.

What prompted this thread? Well i've been seeing quite a few progression vids for trials etc recently, such as trying to push for the unchained achievement.

And one thing i have noticed is groups using addons that specifically tell the players when specific mechanics are going to happen before they do, who they are going to happen to and even where specific spawns will be.

Now, there is no denying the skill of the players pushing for the achievements but i will be totally honest, the fact that they are heavily crutching on such addons makes their achievement much cheaper.

For example. If you see a PC player and a console player both with "The Unchained" then while on the face of it those achievements are the same, they really aren't.

Maybe it's just me but as someone who has both PC and console i see such an addon being used as a cheap tactic and a crutch.

Wondering how the community feels on it? Do you think the use of such addons is fine, even though console has no access to them? Or do you feel that they are a crutch used by teams going for scores or wanting an "easier" (relative) time?

Additionally along the same lines, do you think consoles should be able to have addons? Talking all addons, not just this type.

SHADOW2KK

Nice flamebait thread OP.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Nice flamebait thread OP.

I realise addons is a very controversial topic on the forums and in general, but honestly just asking what people's viewpoints are on them, especially where achievements are concerned.

VaranisArano

I think ZOS needs to take elements of successful add-ons, like minimaps, price checks, and DPS counters, and make them part of the base game.

Jhalin

These addons exist because ZOS frequently breaks their game so that those mechanics stop showing their tells. Or renders them as a shadowy Breton-shaped figure for some reason

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Jhalin wrote: »

These addons exist because ZOS frequently breaks their game so that those mechanics stop showing their tells. Or renders them as a shadowy Breton-shaped figure for some reason

If the addon provided the information in real time, as in when the visual or auditory queue would be played then i would agree, but we're specifically seeing addons that will give a 8 second or so warning and countdown.

This aspect of it is what i feel the issue is. If the prompts came as an overlay over where the visual or audible cues are in game (when they show) then it would simply be another good addon.

Reverb

There are some add-ons that are so good they really should be part of the base game, such as Awesome Guild Store, Advanced Filters, Multicraft, and the ones that make the UI elements modular. I would add Inventory Insight to that list, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

Many others are QoL improvements without impacting combat, and I can't imagine anyone having a problem with them. Auto Invite, Minimap, Dressing Room/Alpha Gear, Quickslot improvement, Port to Friends House, and similar. I feel that any reasonable person would put those in the "useful and harmless" category.

I see semi-controversy over those that impact the economy (MM, TTC) or shortcut immersive gameplay (skyshards, notebooks, map pins/destinations). I use them, but also see the point of view of people who think they cheapen the experience.

Combat Metrics is extremely helpful in improving personal and group performance. It doesn't actually enhance performance in real time, but players who use it for continual improvement have an advantage over players who don't, so that's where some skill gap between platforms can start to be alleged.

I don't think any of those are a " a cheap tactic and a crutch." As OP alleges, but of course She's referring to Raid Notifier and buff/debuff notifications. I can back the argument that they lower the bar for skill and situational awareness in trials and arenas. I wouldnt want to give them up, but I have a deep respect for competitive guilds on console who are successful without those tools.

Its like my backup camera or navigation system. Sure I can get around just fine without them, but I'd rather not.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

@Reverb thank you for the comment. First off: *She (had to be done lol)

You raise many solid points i agree with. There are so many addons that literally enhance the game experience and the fact that they are not base game is a disservice to the community (no minimap in base game ZOS?)

I was unsure of the specific names for the addons in question because on my PC setup i have the most basic things and don't look beyond (things like Greyskull and Advanced UI are basically as far as i've gone).

I have no doubt that many of the players using these addon types could probably get the content done without them.

What i would question is: If ZOS outright banned such addons tomorrow (they won't) Would they still get the no deaths as quickly? And would they still get the same level of scores they do with the prompts?

Linaleah

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

@Reverb thank you for the comment. First off: *She (had to be done lol)

You raise many solid points i agree with. There are so many addons that literally enhance the game experience and the fact that they are not base game is a disservice to the community (no minimap in base game ZOS?)

I was unsure of the specific names for the addons in question because on my PC setup i have the most basic things and don't look beyond (things like Greyskull and Advanced UI are basically as far as i've gone).

I have no doubt that many of the players using these addon types could probably get the content done without them.

What i would question is: If ZOS outright banned such addons tomorrow (they won't) Would they still get the no deaths as quickly? And would they still get the same level of scores they do with the prompts?

yes. why? becasue the main advantage PC has is not even addons. its acess to PTS server where you can get some practice in. addons don't all get updated immediately anyways.

moreover. I'm guessing this is likely how its done on consoles, but in general when I run trials with guildies, we have a group leader making call outs in voice, up to and including tracking certain mechanics and giving countdown. with an actual literal timer on their desk (or a watch whatever they may prefer using). an addon countdown might make it more convenient, but its not like these timed mechanics cannot be tracked without an addon. becasue they can be and they are.

to be honest, the reason why I would never chose to play on console is not the raid addons. its the quality of life stuff. multicraft, movable UI, awesome guild store (I don't even want to contemplate trying to shop for ANYTHING without awesome guild store, base game trader interface is abysmally bad) etc.

I honestly don't know how console players don't go mad...

SHADOW2KK

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Nice flamebait thread OP.

I realise addons is a very controversial topic on the forums and in general, but honestly just asking what people's viewpoints are on them, especially where achievements are concerned.

Going by your posts on this thread, I see that you are honestly trying to determine peeps viewpoints, I thought at first you wanted the forums to melt, my bad.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Nice flamebait thread OP.

I realise addons is a very controversial topic on the forums and in general, but honestly just asking what people's viewpoints are on them, especially where achievements are concerned.

Going by your posts on this thread, I see that you are honestly trying to determine peeps viewpoints, I thought at first you wanted the forums to melt, my bad.

It's cool. The forums make cynics of us all sometimes

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Linaleah wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

@Reverb thank you for the comment. First off: *She (had to be done lol)

You raise many solid points i agree with. There are so many addons that literally enhance the game experience and the fact that they are not base game is a disservice to the community (no minimap in base game ZOS?)

I was unsure of the specific names for the addons in question because on my PC setup i have the most basic things and don't look beyond (things like Greyskull and Advanced UI are basically as far as i've gone).

I have no doubt that many of the players using these addon types could probably get the content done without them.

What i would question is: If ZOS outright banned such addons tomorrow (they won't) Would they still get the no deaths as quickly? And would they still get the same level of scores they do with the prompts?

yes. why? becasue the main advantage PC has is not even addons. its acess to PTS server where you can get some practice in. addons don't all get updated immediately anyways.

moreover. I'm guessing this is likely how its done on consoles, but in general when I run trials with guildies, we have a group leader making call outs in voice, up to and including tracking certain mechanics and giving countdown. with an actual literal timer on their desk (or a watch whatever they may prefer using). an addon countdown might make it more convenient, but its not like these timed mechanics cannot be tracked without an addon. becasue they can be and they are.

to be honest, the reason why I would never chose to play on console is not the raid addons. its the quality of life stuff. multicraft, movable UI, awesome guild store (I don't even want to contemplate trying to shop for ANYTHING without awesome guild store, base game trader interface is abysmally bad) etc.

I honestly don't know how console players don't go mad...

Oh, console players are totally crazy

Searching guild stores on console is a pain but our lack of TTC and the awkwardness in searching means those who put the effort in get the bargains and flip to make the best profits.

Now, back on topic:

Most raid groups i know and see on consoles generally the rule is for players to learn mechanics by heart so you know if you see or hear a cue you know what it means. Raid leads will do call outs for the mechs as the cues happen but mostly the responsibility is with you to know them.

Some mechanics are able to be timed i'm sure and i would also agree it's likely some groups would do that. But to do so relies on the communication of the raid lead and skill to do so, as human error can play a part in that.

The addons have no wiggle room or human error potential if it is functioning correctly. It's not late on a call because it can't be. It can't miss a cue because it's programmed to never miss it.

Mayrael

What is see in this thread is not really searching for opinion but trying to imply that console players have more skill - but hey, that's just my opinion :P

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Mayrael wrote: »

What is see in this thread is not really searching for opinion but trying to imply that console players have more skill - but hey, that's just my opinion :P

I have stated that the achievements on console are harder to hit than on PC with addon assistance. Whether that implies console players have more skill or not?

Linaleah

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

@Reverb thank you for the comment. First off: *She (had to be done lol)

You raise many solid points i agree with. There are so many addons that literally enhance the game experience and the fact that they are not base game is a disservice to the community (no minimap in base game ZOS?)

I was unsure of the specific names for the addons in question because on my PC setup i have the most basic things and don't look beyond (things like Greyskull and Advanced UI are basically as far as i've gone).

I have no doubt that many of the players using these addon types could probably get the content done without them.

What i would question is: If ZOS outright banned such addons tomorrow (they won't) Would they still get the no deaths as quickly? And would they still get the same level of scores they do with the prompts?

yes. why? becasue the main advantage PC has is not even addons. its acess to PTS server where you can get some practice in. addons don't all get updated immediately anyways.

moreover. I'm guessing this is likely how its done on consoles, but in general when I run trials with guildies, we have a group leader making call outs in voice, up to and including tracking certain mechanics and giving countdown. with an actual literal timer on their desk (or a watch whatever they may prefer using). an addon countdown might make it more convenient, but its not like these timed mechanics cannot be tracked without an addon. becasue they can be and they are.

to be honest, the reason why I would never chose to play on console is not the raid addons. its the quality of life stuff. multicraft, movable UI, awesome guild store (I don't even want to contemplate trying to shop for ANYTHING without awesome guild store, base game trader interface is abysmally bad) etc.

I honestly don't know how console players don't go mad...

Oh, console players are totally crazy

Searching guild stores on console is a pain but our lack of TTC and the awkwardness in searching means those who put the effort in get the bargains and flip to make the best profits.

Now, back on topic:

Most raid groups i know and see on consoles generally the rule is for players to learn mechanics by heart so you know if you see or hear a cue you know what it means. Raid leads will do call outs for the mechs as the cues happen but mostly the responsibility is with you to know them.

Some mechanics are able to be timed i'm sure and i would also agree it's likely some groups would do that. But to do so relies on the communication of the raid lead and skill to do so, as human error can play a part in that.

The addons have no wiggle room or human error potential if it is functioning correctly. It's not late on a call because it can't be. It can't miss a cue because it's programmed to never miss it.

now I don't have an explanation as for why, but.. addons are actualy not infallible. sometimes they do miss ques and warnings. sometimes those come too late and you are better off watching the boss for windup animations instead. one thing I will say that addons are extremely helpful with and honestly? that is an issue with base UI that I have not experienced before ESO as in other MMO's I play, you actualy got raid frame indications built in.

cleanses. tracking cleanses/purges without an addon is beyond painful. becasue there are often no visual indications whether the the player still has debuff on them or if its been purged. and given that purge itself is not a very smart ability that hits whoever the heck it feels like hitting, rather then those that needed it - you have to hit it more then once, and without indications - you have to either rely on players telling you that they still need purge or waste extra magicka just in case.

but aside from that trials addons are a helpful tool for sure, but relying on them too much to the detriment of actualy watching your surroundings is.. not a good idea. they should never been used as a replacement for actual fight awareness.

P.S. you know which achievements are definitively harder to hit on console without addons? anything that has to do with gathering. fishing, skyshards, lorebooks etc. yes, there are maps online that you can use but you either have to print them out, or open them on your phone and it still takes a fair bit longer then on PC. I will give you THAT :P

Kanar

I agree that Raid Notifier & similar are hand-holding add-ons that allows both bad & good players to perform better. Basically, it's miats for PvE. If miats was bad and blocked, then why not Raid Notifier? Even worse, trial progression guilds require you to run it. F that, it's bull! I'd rather learn the in-game tells, but response I get from seasoned raiders is, "lol I don't know the mechanic, just use raid notifier."

Console users are certainly better players because they don't crutch on add-ons. At same time, playing without skyshards, lorebooks, combat metrics, gear changer, and dustman would be a nightmare!

BUT, I think vet trials are too punishing if such a small percentage of players do them and of those that do them, 100% use a crutch to do it. Trial scene on console is pretty dead from what I hear. It's hard to get 12 good players together who could do trials without the crutch. Maybe trials need to be toned down or mechanic tells need to be more obvious? Make that change and then block raid notified.

Varana

In PvP, you're up against other players. An add-on like Miats gives you an unintended advantage over another human player. PvP is (somewhat) competitive.

In PvE, you're up against pre-programmed mechanics with a random element. An add-on like Raid Notifier gives you an unintended advantage over Z'Maja, and I find it difficult to feel bad for a soulless machine converting numbers into pixel death. There are groups who play PvE kind of competitively, but they all have access to Raid Notifier (or others; it's only the best-known add-on of that kind), evening the playing field again. There's no real cross-platform competition. (With PTS access and DLCs dropping for PC well in advance, not even in the area of "world's first".)

Add-ons like Raid Notifier help mid-tier players and groups much more. They widen the player base for difficult content, and that is undeniably a good thing. Sure, they make some mechanics easier (and in some cases are more fixes than cheats). But I fail to see the harm in that.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

@Varana we're not debating how effective such addons are. The fact that PC raid guilds all use them is evidence of that.

What the talking point of this is, is whether players not needing to learn the cues for mechanics (because the addon tells them what will happen, who it will happen to etc.) cheapens the achievements obtained.

We even have people from PC who have explained that this very situation is happening on PC servers.

Call me "old-fashioned" but completion of vet content/HM content should convey mastery over said content, not crutching upon addon assistance so you can avoid learning the mechanics/spawns etc yourself.

I have my opinion on and respect that you see it as the addon giving an advantage only over the computer generated monsters, but overall that addon contributes to what causes players to go "endgame is too easy" and then ZOS have to crank the divide wider to appeal to those players.

Dojohoda

If a person uses any particular addon.. I don't care and I don't think about it.

idk

The addons do not play the game for the character so it is not that big of a deal.

Latios

If the person wants to use addons, it's their call, really. I don't like to use stuff like raid notifier because I think it's cooler and more immersive to go with the classic way. That doesn't make me better than anyone, however.

Katahdin

The addon is an aide, nothing more. It does not play the game for you.

You still need to learn the mechanics and what to do when those mechanics happen.
If you don't learn what to do or can't react fast enough, you'll die fast.

And 8 second warning is an exaggeration.
It warns you just before it happens, 2 seconds at most.

As far as consoles vs PC, they are not competing against each other. PC players compete against PC players and Xbox against Xbox, etc. What happens on PC has no impact on the console platforms leaderboard and vice versa.

As an exclusively PC player, I never see a console player character anyway so could care less what achievements they have or dont have.

Since the addon is available to all PC players equally, the playing field is equal for that platform's leaderboards. I've been running some dlc vet trials recently and believe me those achievements are still hard with the addon because as I said, they are an aide. They do not play the game for you.

As far as consoles getting addons, ZoS does not make addons. While they do decide what addons have access to in the game, they do not decide if consoles can have access to them.

That is up to Sony and Microsoft. If you want addons on console, convince them to allow it, then get someone to write the addons for the console and get MS and Sony to approve those addons for upload.

jypcy

Can’t speak for others, but imo the helper addons that I think are the main topic of this conversation (e.g., raid notifier, Blackrose helper, I think there was a MOS one too) become superfluous by the time you’re at a level to get some of the harder, more competitive achievements. They don’t make the content SO easy that even a skilled player can walk into a run and get a trifecta achievement on the first try. These are achievements to grind for, and in that process, you learn what to predict when, whether you learned that through in game tells or add ons.

LiquidPony

Why would it not be "fine" to use addons like Raid Notifier or Asylum Status Panel or S'rendarr or Action Duration Reminder or whatever? They just hook into events provided by the public API. Is it "fine" to use Lazy Writ Crafter or Master Merchant or TTC or Easy Travel or Map Pins/Lorebooks/Skyshards?

It is what it is. Everything is easier on PC because of add-ons, better performance, mouse and keyboard, etc.

Personally I don't think Raid Notifier makes a significant difference in most content. It's nice, but in most cases it's more relevant to progression groups than to people who are going for scores or difficult achievements. By the time you're going for a DD title or a vAS+2 speedrun, you know the mechanics inside and out and Raid Notifier is mostly just noise.

For instance, when I played on XB1, we did first boss MoL with the A/B strategy. First set of curses go out, raid lead calls "A curses", everyone cleanses on the *left* side of the room. Second set of curses go out, raid lead calls "B curses", everyone cleanses on the *right* side of the room, and so on. With Raid Notifier, you can see a map of the cleanse pads with timers for when they refresh so you just wing it. Or in vAS+2, on XB1 we had people who literally ran stopwatches who were responsible for timing the minibosses for when they would spawn and enrage. On PC, you just use Asylum Status Panel and it tracks everything for you. But it's not like what we did on console was significantly harder. A/B strat on first boss MoL was stupid simple. Running stopwatches in vAS+2 didn't take skill, it was literally just press a button when the boss spawns/dies. Pretty minor stuff.

But honestly to me the addons that make the biggest difference in PC scores/times versus console scores times are AlphaGear/Dressing Room and the like. The ability to swap all of you gear and skills between fights with one keypress is much more impactful than mechanic notifications IMO.

In the end, it's pointless to compare scores/times between console and PC for a number of reasons, and I wouldn't say that Raid Notifier-type addons are the biggest one. Performance is the #1 difference for me, followed by Combat Metrics, then AlphaGear-type addons, *then* Raid Notifier-type addons.

I don't think it cheapens the content or makes it "too easy" by a long shot. If it did, more than a tiny fraction of the community would have vCR+3 or vAS+2 completes or even DD titles or vHoF HM completes.