Rock Paper Scissors is TRASH

kaithuzar

Title says it all. How about some of you geniuses smarter than me come up with something that works better in reality rather than just on paper.

Then MAYBE we’ll start to see some balance.

Years ago a lot of the old school guys said:
“Players should be allowed to make mistakes. If a player makes a mistake, & I capitalize on that mistake & win; that’s skill. Likewise if I’m fighting 3 people, that’s 3 sets of eyes on me to make/find a mistake in my play & them to come out on top. But if each of them makes a mistake before I do, that’s how you show skill & come out ahead.”

The game in its current stance is “its ok to make a mistake because earthgore, because unmitigated damage, because proc sets, bleeds, aoe executes, disease resistant healbots, & complete hard counters with the excuse of Rock Paper Scissors...

#StopCrutching2019
#FixCyrodiil2019
#FixBalance2019

Nerftheforums

Imagine, just IMAGINE, a well performing cyrodiil with a pvp that required skill...wouldn't that be paradise?

kaithuzar

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Imagine, just IMAGINE, a well performing cyrodiil with a pvp that required skill...wouldn't that be paradise?

A decent amount of us have been IMAGINING for $15 a month for ~5 years

kathandira

kaithuzar wrote: »

Title says it all. How about some of you geniuses smarter than me come up with something that works better in reality rather than just on paper.

Then MAYBE we’ll start to see some balance.

Years ago a lot of the old school guys said:
“Players should be allowed to make mistakes. If a player makes a mistake, & I capitalize on that mistake & win; that’s skill. Likewise if I’m fighting 3 people, that’s 3 sets of eyes on me to make/find a mistake in my play & them to come out on top. But if each of them makes a mistake before I do, that’s how you show skill & come out ahead.”

The game in its current stance is “its ok to make a mistake because earthgore, because unmitigated damage, because proc sets, bleeds, aoe executes, disease resistant healbots, & complete hard counters with the excuse of Rock Paper Scissors...

#StopCrutching2019
#FixCyrodiil2019
#FixBalance2019

Welcome to Online PvP! It's been this way for about a decade or more.

If the game has stats, skills, and/or gear that you allocate, having a 1:1 power match will likely not be happening.

This is why games with a primary PvE focus should not have PvP modes that use those stats, skills, and gear.

UppGRAYxDD

came here to hear a complaint about the rock/paper/scissors emotes ....

AllegraLionheart

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

came here to hear a complaint about the rock/paper/scissors emotes ....

Same. XD


Although, I'd like a little more on the rock-paper-scissors play OP mentioned, however. Note that I'm relatively new to pvp in general (in MMOs and in Cyrodiil since July 2018), but I've been fairly immersed with my pvp guild and listening to their input on various playstyles, builds, etc., and how they perform (or don't) in Cyrodiil.

That being said... What does OP mean by that? I wanna know more.

Darkenarlol

There is no rock/paper/scissors and no 'meta or struggle' left

It is almost rock/paper/SHOTGUN and meta or gtfo

Anyway it all happens in lag, lag or LAG environment :-)

idk

I have to agree that if Zos was seeking to take remove the need for skill and experience in PvP they succeeded.

I have said a number of times that Zos lacks vision. They fail to think things through before implementing ideas. What OP speaks of is really just one areas where Zos has lost control due to their own failure to manage this game properly.

This is a great IP but it is sad how poorly this group has been managed since before this game launched. The launch itself was a pitiful embarrassment to anyone who would consider them a professional in this industry.

SirAndy

kaithuzar wrote: »

Then MAYBE we’ll start to see some balance

I have an idea!

How about we remove all Armor/CP/Abilities/Passives/YadaYada from the game and just give everyone a rocket launcher and let them have a go.


We'll called it "ESO 3 Team Arena", it will be glorious!

kaithuzar

I'm not great at explaining things but giving it a try...

Since people on this forum like to make martial arts references...
Imagine that you start off with 2 people, lets say one is from country A(will call this ClassA) & the other from country B(ClassB).

So they get into a street fight, they're both human, therefore it's balanced.

BUT IT"S BORING..everyone says. There's no diversity. OK...

So lets say ClassA lifts weights & strengthens their arms every day.
ClassB on the other hand, runs & strengthens their legs everyday.

Now they have a street fight.

There is diversity because they are each using different styles of attacks.
It's still balanced, because they are both using their hands & feet to fight. They're still both human.
If one of them bites the other one, it's still balanced because they both have the option to do so; this is like "everyone has breakfree or block or roll dodge".
Classes should have ways of doing the same thing, only slightly different (such as hands vs feet) so it's unique without being overpowered.
If you broke my nose with your fist & I broke your nose with my foot, it's a lot different than if one of us got a broken nose & the other was decapitated.

What we currently have in game, is ClassA has a fighter jet, & ClassB has a 99mm pistol.
My big complaint is that "hard counters" institute "excuses for improper balance".

It's been said before that magdk is a hard counter to magblade. But that's not exactly true, because you could also say they are a hard counter to sorc, or anything with ranged reflect-able abilities.
So if wings is the fighter jet in this case, how do we balance it?
Morph absorb magicka to be roughly the same thing; if you give it to everyone it's balanced.

Cloak has, debatably, already been given to everyone in the form of potions. This can always be changed further however I would argue "cloak it'self" doesn't do anything from a damage perspective & therefore won't often "win" you a fight; at least not by itself.

If the counter to a healbot is to befoul them & they roll an argonian which is resistant to disease damage; where is the counter play to befoul them?
It shouldn't be "a templar's role is to heal", it should be "here are the classes, they are different races, be what you want".
Class skills should have equivalencies in terms of both healing & damage; right now they obviously don't.
If I can't jump on my nightblade & heal just as well as a templar (if I so speck into it), then it's not balanced.
Everyone needs a h-o-t, everyone needs a burst heal, etc...

Everyone could have speed. Too much speed broke things. Limit the maximum amount of speed.
Why nerf all sources so there is no longer any speed? We need to slowly add that back in without breaking things & speed up the combat. As long as everyone has access & it doesn't break things, there shouldn't be any issues.


If there's someone that can explain this better or maybe offer a counter argument I would love to hear it.
Don't take the things I specifically mentioned above as the only issues, or even the biggest issues; they are not.
They were just chosen because they were off the top of my head & things that I'm maybe more familiar with.

IZZEFlameLash

As if there was one. DPS rules over everything in this game.

SHADOW2KK

SirAndy wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Then MAYBE we’ll start to see some balance

I have an idea!

How about we remove all Armor/CP/Abilities/Passives/YadaYada from the game and just give everyone a rocket launcher and let them have a go.


We'll called it "ESO 3 Team Arena", it will be glorious!

Unreal Tournament would still blow it out of the park

dpencil1

I think the biggest drawback for the balance of the game comes from having these two competing systems: Magicka and Stamina. There's not a really good reason why this dichotomy needs to exist. If they let Stamina be a resource that was exclusively for running, dodging, and blocking, and rename Magicka something like "Power" that would fit better as a term applicable to both magical and martial skills, then so many balance issues would evaporate and players would have so many more choices for their skills and builds.

Tasear

What if earthgore wasn't harder to use or took more skill from healer. I personally think earthgore is a good set though that does what healers should do and that's help with mistakes.

XD still I remember when everyone thought this set was going to be bad during pts.

RavenSworn

kaithuzar wrote: »

I'm not great at explaining things but giving it a try...

Since people on this forum like to make martial arts references...
Imagine that you start off with 2 people, lets say one is from country A(will call this ClassA) & the other from country B(ClassB).

So they get into a street fight, they're both human, therefore it's balanced.

BUT IT"S BORING..everyone says. There's no diversity. OK...

So lets say ClassA lifts weights & strengthens their arms every day.
ClassB on the other hand, runs & strengthens their legs everyday.

Now they have a street fight.

There is diversity because they are each using different styles of attacks.
It's still balanced, because they are both using their hands & feet to fight. They're still both human.
If one of them bites the other one, it's still balanced because they both have the option to do so; this is like "everyone has breakfree or block or roll dodge".
Classes should have ways of doing the same thing, only slightly different (such as hands vs feet) so it's unique without being overpowered.
If you broke my nose with your fist & I broke your nose with my foot, it's a lot different than if one of us got a broken nose & the other was decapitated.

What we currently have in game, is ClassA has a fighter jet, & ClassB has a 99mm pistol.
My big complaint is that "hard counters" institute "excuses for improper balance".

It's been said before that magdk is a hard counter to magblade. But that's not exactly true, because you could also say they are a hard counter to sorc, or anything with ranged reflect-able abilities.
So if wings is the fighter jet in this case, how do we balance it?
Morph absorb magicka to be roughly the same thing; if you give it to everyone it's balanced.

Cloak has, debatably, already been given to everyone in the form of potions. This can always be changed further however I would argue "cloak it'self" doesn't do anything from a damage perspective & therefore won't often "win" you a fight; at least not by itself.

If the counter to a healbot is to befoul them & they roll an argonian which is resistant to disease damage; where is the counter play to befoul them?
It shouldn't be "a templar's role is to heal", it should be "here are the classes, they are different races, be what you want".
Class skills should have equivalencies in terms of both healing & damage; right now they obviously don't.
If I can't jump on my nightblade & heal just as well as a templar (if I so speck into it), then it's not balanced.
Everyone needs a h-o-t, everyone needs a burst heal, etc...

Everyone could have speed. Too much speed broke things. Limit the maximum amount of speed.
Why nerf all sources so there is no longer any speed? We need to slowly add that back in without breaking things & speed up the combat. As long as everyone has access & it doesn't break things, there shouldn't be any issues.


If there's someone that can explain this better or maybe offer a counter argument I would love to hear it.
Don't take the things I specifically mentioned above as the only issues, or even the biggest issues; they are not.
They were just chosen because they were off the top of my head & things that I'm maybe more familiar with.

I think you're painting a perfect picture in terms of balanced pvp combat. I like the analogy but eso is more complicated because those same players, with their differentiating abilities are also asked to have a foot race in a pve environment. Guess who will win?

The idea of rock paper scissors works really well in pvp, as much as you don't like it. But the thing is, it's an ideal situation. Eso pvp doesn't have that. You might have hard counters but with sets, cp, builds, potions, dodge, block all coming into play, it's not a monumental task to balance it. It's impossibly herculean.

My thoughts are this; pvp sets should stay pvp, pve sets should stay pve. Both players however have access to crafted sets. Cp should be disabled for pvp. There should be more additions to the alliance war skill tab, perhaps not just an assault and support line but a siege and tactical skill line. This tab, will not be active in pve.

Now what does this mean for the game itself? The devs now are able to clearly defined the classes' uniqueness while still maintaining the pvp / pve status quo. While pve players have more sets and cp available to them, pvp have the additional skill lines to work with. There will be certain abilities from the assault and support line that affects pve such as the ever present Warhorn or Barrier, but it would make class ults more useful and provides clearer class identity.

This provide an opportunity for the devs to create interesting pve or pvp based sets that doesn't have an effect on the other. There are a few notorious crafted sets such as the sloads semblance, but with the addition to alliance war tab, an ability can be made to counter sets such as these.

A player then has options to do the content they want without needing to feel that they have to do content they don't like just so they can get the gear they need. With the disabling of cp, new players eager to play pvp will just have to level till 50 and level up their abilities so that they can straightaway have fun. The methodical levelling of pve will then provide the progression needed in pve, with gear sets, cp and rotations to remember.

That's how it could be done IMHO.