SteelNado

Purdomination33

Skill = lowest common denominator.

Basically this whole game has turned into the lowest common denominator.

Sparr0w

Spin 2 win

frostz417

I think snipe is worse imo with how little skill it takes

MinuitPro

The lag queue on snipes is pretty awful. Server often catches up after 3-4 have landed... thanks for dead.

Aztlan

The skill has its place. I get the impression that every other post on these forums has been written by a 1vXer or BGs player who's upset he got overwhelmed while fighting outnumbered.

VaranisArano

Personally, if you want to isolate skill in PVP, start your own dueling tournament or group v group competition with strict rules about what skills/gear people can use.

If you are playing with a bunch of random people in Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil, chances are they are going to play to win, not show off their "skill".

I mean, even Inigo Montoya and the Dread Pirate Roberts switched to swordfighting with their right hands when the chips were down and death was on the line.

Purdomination33

"

Aztlan wrote: »

The skill has its place. I get the impression that every other post on these forums has been written by a 1vXer or BGs player who's upset he got overwhelmed while fighting outnumbered.

Cool assumption bro. Played this game for 3 years straight, I am far beyond giving a rats ass when I get killed. This weird "brain" thing in my head allows me to understand the difference between outnumbered and skill-less button smashing.

Purdomination33

My original statement has yet to be refuted I see. My original post did not mention skill, effectiveness or winning. Merely pointed out I consider Steelnado an example of ESO going towards the lowest common denominator which is an easy to use, highly effective one size fits all type approach. Using one skill which then procs numerous other "things that take away HP".

Luigi_Vampa

My friend used to call it Skill Tornado because of how much skill it requires.

VaranisArano

Purdomination33 wrote: »

My original statement has yet to be refuted I see. My original post did not mention skill, effectiveness or winning. Merely pointed out I consider Steelnado an example of ESO going towards the lowest common denominator which is an easy to use, highly effective one size fits all type approach. Using one skill which then procs numerous other "things that take away HP".

Ah. You were using "Skill" in the sense of "Steel Tornado is a skill players can use" instead of the sense where "Steel Tornado takes no skill to use".

Which was my area of confusion.

So your objection is players using easy tactics, by spamming one skill and proccing other effects?

Again I say: What do you expect? People are going to use the most effective tactics to win. That's why there's always a meta. People always want the most bang for the least effort because that's the most effective way to win. its inevitable.

It's a rare person who deliberately handicaps themselves with inefficient tactics in competition.

What exactly is your vision of "non-lowest-common-denominator PVP"? And how do you intend to persuade ZOS that they should change the game to fit your vision? Because without either of those things, this is just another complaint thread.

Purdomination33

You are correct, this is simply a complaint thread meant to do assuage my wondering bored mind.

Gilvoth

the only thing that needs fixed on steel tornado is that it has a stupid delay on it.
after casting it, you see your character just stand there momentarily before the next spin occurs, not only looks stupid, but makes the damage too slow.

Gilvoth

Aztlan wrote: »

The skill has its place. I get the impression that every other post on these forums has been written by a 1vXer or BGs player who's upset he got overwhelmed while fighting outnumbered.

that is exactly what is happening.

Tryxus

Win and Spin time:



This skill and Bleeds seems to be all the rage these days...

rabidmyers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZZ81g2MLg

Ender1310

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Skill = lowest common denominator.

Basically this whole game has turned into the lowest common denominator.

It is a zero skill button push that doesn't require you to be near/ target your opponent. It hits to hard. Should take the execute off of it and give it to the other morph

Vapirko

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

The skill has its place. I get the impression that every other post on these forums has been written by a 1vXer or BGs player who's upset he got overwhelmed while fighting outnumbered.

that is exactly what is happening.

It’s less about being overwhelmed Xv1 and more about encouraging a playstyle that allows some to sit in complete safety and deliver one of the strongest hits in the game with the most deadly effects attached to it (major defile, stun). And in BGs it’s often 2 or sometimes more people per team playing this way. The range of the ability and the size of BGs arenas makes it effective to the point of barely having to play at all. And it’s frustrating to be on the receiving end but it’s also crap to play with a team with two bow stealthers, who just sit in the shadows and pick off kills. And often they’re so unskilled, and so risk adverse that they often contribute nothing to the match. In Cyrodiil it’s not quite as much of an issue. And to be fair 1vXers and small scale players probably have the best handle on what’s under and over performing as they play in a situation where all the numbers matter. To a Zerg or people who just wait to pick off low health targets from stealth, it doesn’t really matter.

Aztlan

@Vapirko That makes sense. I am definitely sympathetic to your frustration with BGs.

But look at it from my perspective. I usually play a stamina character in open world Cyrodiil, either solo or in an organized group. A lot of players are very tanky, running 30K health with 25K resistances and good healing as well. Now if I encounter one of them, I can wear them down with single-target abilities and/or pull off a skillful burst combo, but what if there are several or a whole raid of them? Then Steel Tornado is a crucial, and not at all overloaded or unfair, skill. Imagine my group of 12-16 pushing into a similar-sized group of tanky players. We catch them unprepared or on the run and bring them into execute range. That's where Steel Tornado shines. And what other options do I have as a stamina player? Carve? Reverse slice? Wait for my ultimate to be ready? If we don't finish off the enemy group quickly, they will simply heal up and the moment will be lost. And by the way, there is no lack of skill in getting into this situation. Steel Tornado is just the finisher and is well balanced here in terms of cost and damage output.

mague

Purdomination33 wrote: »

My original statement has yet to be refuted I see. My original post did not mention skill, effectiveness or winning. Merely pointed out I consider Steelnado an example of ESO going towards the lowest common denominator which is an easy to use, highly effective one size fits all type approach. Using one skill which then procs numerous other "things that take away HP".

The other path would be to remove all skills in Cyrodiil and only allow light, heavy, block, dodge and Alliance skills.

Tornado is here since forever. It is part of a group setup matrix. Compare your death recabs in Cyrodiil. They are not really random.

Vapirko

Aztlan wrote: »

@Vapirko That makes sense. I am definitely sympathetic to your frustration with BGs.

But look at it from my perspective. I usually play a stamina character in open world Cyrodiil, either solo or in an organized group. A lot of players are very tanky, running 30K health with 25K resistances and good healing as well. Now if I encounter one of them, I can wear them down with single-target abilities and/or pull off a skillful burst combo, but what if there are several or a whole raid of them? Then Steel Tornado is a crucial, and not at all overloaded or unfair, skill. Imagine my group of 12-16 pushing into a similar-sized group of tanky players. We catch them unprepared or on the run and bring them into execute range. That's where Steel Tornado shines. And what other options do I have as a stamina player? Carve? Reverse slice? Wait for my ultimate to be ready? If we don't finish off the enemy group quickly, they will simply heal up and the moment will be lost. And by the way, there is no lack of skill in getting into this situation. Steel Tornado is just the finisher and is well balanced here in terms of cost and damage output.

I’m sorry I got lost. There’s been so many ST and Snipe threads I got mixed up on which one I was on. I’m a bit torn on the steel tornado issue. I think the big mistake was once again ZOS trying to homogenize all skills. ST became a real issue when they made it undodgeable because dodge rolling is the way a stamina toon is going to get out of group coming at them with everything. Steel tornado can remain powerful but it needs more counterplay. If you don’t have a healer and a group you can’t afford to sit there and hold block. I really don’t like ZOS’ trend of bringing everything “in line.” It works when it comes to things like damage and maybe snare/CC duration/immunity. But when you start homogenizing counterplay to all skills it stops working. A ground based AOE is not the same as Steel Tornado, in how it’s used. The fact that steel tornado is mobile and can be easily spammed makes it a very different beast. And the fact that it’s an execute and a very strong one at that, strengthens the case that it should be treated differently than say wall of elements or whatever.

Aztlan

That's the difference. I'm referring to a situation where my opponents are often in a group, have multiple healers and are mobile, with rapids and purge spammers.

Feanor

@Aztlan

The issue is that everything looks balanced in that situation. It’s just like the argument that bleeds and oblivion damage can’t be nerfed because of the tank builds. That this screws over everyone who isn’t the outlier isn’t a thought that occurs to people who defend stuff like that.

Aztlan

@Feanor Oh yeah? Well if you're so fair minded, why didn't you agree to hand over the silmarils when the Valar asked nicely, eh?

I just wanted to point out how ST is fine in some situations. A lot of skills are like that: tough to balance across PvE, small and large scale PvP. Maybe ST should work like the Master's 2H, which allows Carve/Brawler to do more damage based on how many enemies are hit.

likecats

IMO they should make steel tornado work like radial sweep/crescent sweep.

A cone in front of you takes full damage, and the rest takes reduced damage (maybe 75% of max damage).
This will reduce the cheese aspect of not targeting your enemies and still hitting them with a really strong ability, while retaining the overall effectiveness of this ability in 1v1 or 1v2s.

CompM4s

People can complain about almost every execute. Mages wrath can be placed on you before you are even in range and procs implosion, steel tornado has a large area, radiant oppression has long range and channeled for very high damage. One thing in common is all of these require the player to get to execute range. That is where the players made several mistakes already and shouldnt be suprised they died.

Ragnarock41

If you're losing a 1v1 to a ST spammer you really should not talk about skill. The ability itself hits like garbage and has an absurdly high cost unless you use it as execute which is why its used for.

Feanor

@Aztlan

The Silmarils will be broken after the Last Battle when the world is remade. And regardless of choice - they were stolen anyway.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

We all know that Steel Tornado spam is becoming bigger and bigger because it's a huge radius execute that does strong damage even above that threshold.

Easiest solution for it is a radius reduction and a slight base damage reduction, like the treatment they gave to Eye of the Storm to solve the destro train issue.

Nobody would argue for the point of view that the changes to eye of the storm made the skill totally useless. It just stopped people obsessively running the destro trains and returned it to generally being a useful ultimate but more niche that all mag = Eye of the Storm like it was.

Outside of that change i don't want to see the skill altered in a way that would make it pointless to use in PvE for trash mob clearance.

Stigant

Why is Steel tornado strong?
Because it's undodgeable big radius PBAoE execute ability that gains a little more damage from DW passive against low HP targets and another extra damage bonus against CCed targets. That's why DBoS->Tornado is so great combo.

Why is/feels Steel tornado weak?
Because you don't use it properly
As @Ragnarock41 pointed out


Just something to take under consideration.

BuddyAces

CompM4s wrote: »

People can complain about almost every execute. Mages wrath can be placed on you before you are even in range and procs implosion, steel tornado has a large area, radiant oppression has long range and channeled for very high damage. One thing in common is all of these require the player to get to execute range. That is where the players made several mistakes already and shouldnt be suprised they died.

This. This so much. I don't understand the hate. If you're low enough on health that this is killing you so will a dozen other things.

Galarthor

You know you f***ed up as a combat designer when an AoE ability is used as a spammable against solo targets.

Failing to admit and address this is just pathetic! And judging by their recent "change in strategy" we won't see any changes to Spin2Win for at least the 6 months. GG.