2x0 still equals 0

TimeViewer

Sorry if this is an old gripe but all this event is doing is pointing out the flawed rewards system, healers and tanks get nothing from WB fights with so many people fighting at them.

Before someone says it, yes I've heard the "so play a DPS" enough times to gag on it, that's just sidestepping the issue, the system is flawed, punishing someone for their role is flawed, why bother even having roles if all you're going to do is punish someone for playing it?

In the words of the immortal Philip J. Fry "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"

vovus69

you can get tickets from daily quest in CWC this week. No need for WB.

kadochka

TimeViewer wrote: »

Sorry if this is an old gripe but all this event is doing is pointing out the flawed rewards system, healers and tanks get nothing from WB fights with so many people fighting at them.

Before someone says it, yes I've heard the "so play a DPS" enough times to gag on it, that's just sidestepping the issue, the system is flawed, punishing someone for their role is flawed, why bother even having roles if all you're going to do is punish someone for playing it?

In the words of the immortal Philip J. Fry "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"

Ah, Fry.. yes.
I love my healers, that's the role I always play in dungeons. So I treasure them and they are my mains. I want balance.

Ragged_Claw

I agree, I main a DPS so I'm alright, but my partner only has a tank at the moment and the last event was a nightmare for him. He's now levelling a DPS just to do these events. I always feel for the healers and tanks during these events, the system defintely needs looking at.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

The roles of healer and tank only apply in organized group content. If you are not doing that, then why are you spec'ing as one? I mean I really dont get it. Do you run around overland content taunting enemies and holding block hoping someone else will show up?

It is just not that difficult in this game to spec for a bit of damage when you need to. Not saying you have to go full glass cannon, but you need to be able to reasonably kill stuff in this game unless you have group support.

Dawnblade

The current mechanic on getting loot is terrible and should be reworked, and not just for healers and tanks, but even lowbies / new players with low dps in busy areas - sometimes just regular dailies with a named objective, almost always during events.

That said, the solution right now is to slot a damage ability - preferably a high damage ability such as an execute.

Also as another poster pointed out - the tickets are tied to completing dailies, which also provide double the rewards - so not as bad as say missing loot last event an not getting a skull / ticket.

Kanar

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The roles of healer and tank only apply in organized group content. If you are not doing that, then why are you spec'ing as one? I mean I really dont get it. Do you run around overland content taunting enemies and holding block hoping someone else will show up?

It is just not that difficult in this game to spec for a bit of damage when you need to. Not saying you have to go full glass cannon, but you need to be able to reasonably kill stuff in this game unless you have group support.

This. There's zero reason to spec as tank or healer for world bosses.

Itacira

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

DMuehlhausen

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The roles of healer and tank only apply in organized group content. If you are not doing that, then why are you spec'ing as one? I mean I really dont get it. Do you run around overland content taunting enemies and holding block hoping someone else will show up?

It is just not that difficult in this game to spec for a bit of damage when you need to. Not saying you have to go full glass cannon, but you need to be able to reasonably kill stuff in this game unless you have group support.

This ^

I only play a healer, all I ever do, but I still have a DPS set I can throw on to quest and solo. Sure my CP points are gimped and I'm not doing optimal dps, but more than enough to participate in events like this if I so chose to.

Kanar

Itacira wrote: »

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

What money? It's not hard to put together an acceptable solo setup. For world bosses you want something closer to a vMA (solo) build, not a DPS build.

I main DPS, but I carry tank gear for when I want to do dungeons through the finder. What's the difference? I have to do that but you can't be bothered to throw on Hunding's and spriggan's?

Tasear

Itacira wrote: »

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

It's side effect of game design. Most content is designed to be handled as solo and people can somewhat off tank, heal, and dps without specialization thus specialist suffer. Thou do note this is noted as a concern since long ago, but does help to hear more noise on the topic.

Defilted

Can't you just have a set of DPS equipment? I have a DK tank and if for some reason I need to do something that needs damage I just wear damage sets and get it done.

I of course have more than one character so it is not required for me to do this but have and it works fine for any overland content.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Itacira wrote: »

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

What I am saying is that tank and healers are roles that only have meaning and merit in a group setting. So if you aren’t in that, you need to fend for yourself just like in basically every video game ever made. How do you do the main quest? You can’t taunt or heal your way through it by yourself. You need to do some basic damage.

I have a min/maxed tank and healer. Both carry some basic sets to swap to if they need a bit more damage. Is a 5 piece set of Julianos or Hundings really that hard to get? If you really are true tank or healer, then you should have plenty of dropped gear as well.

It simply does not take a drastic investment to make any character be able to do enough damage to get credit for a World Boss. Swap one of your 5 pieces and change a couple of skills.

Itacira

Kanar wrote: »

What money? It's not hard to put together an acceptable solo setup. For world bosses you want something closer to a vMA (solo) build, not a DPS build.

Are you sincerely trying to tell me that a vMA setup doesn't require in-game gold ? Because if so, I'd like to kindly remind you that money is relative, and thus a casual or beginner player or even a player who's more into furnishing and RP than anything else might not have it just lying around.

Kanar wrote: »

I main DPS, but I carry tank gear for when I want to do dungeons through the finder. What's the difference? I have to do that but you can't be bothered to throw on Hunding's and spriggan's?

Good for you ! And that is your choice ! What people are pointing out here is that in this game it's a necessity to carry different sets in order to participate in events.

On a final note, I'm not interested in arguing with you. From the tone of your message, you believe people should struggle past the game's problems and unbalances and if you did it then so should everyone else, and I believe problems should be noted and fixed so that everybody can enjoy the game. We're looking at this issue from different perspectives. Let us not waste each other's time.

Ragged_Claw

I get the points about putting on different gear, slotting some damage skills etc. But the issue with these events is that there are so many people at World Bosses, Domens etc that low CP players and people with low damage still won't get anything. If you've got 40 odd people at a WB, and only the top 12 dps get to loot it, this means that others are missing out. I decided to level a new toon during the last event, was waiting at a delve boss with my little lvl 23, the boss comes up and the CP800 waiting with me basically one-shots it, I got one hit in I think. He then stands there doing the same thing over and over again. And therein lies the problem, ordinarily it wouldn't be a problem, but it is an issue during these events.

Having said that I don't really know what the solution would be, I guess it's important that people don't get to loot by just pinging one light attack at a boss either.

DocFrost72

I tank and heal world bosses and get loot all the time. What specifically do you mean when you day get "nothing"?

VaranisArano

If there are more than 12 DPS fighting, even the DDs dont get rewards.

So maybe let's quit whinging about the place of healers and tanks in overland content and focus on asking ZOS to change the 12-player loot limit?

Because that's the actual solution we need. If you do 3% of damage, you should get loot, no matter how many players are fighting.

DocFrost72

VaranisArano, are you positive the 12 person limit still exists? It certainly used to, but my healer that does no damage gets rewards from world bosses. Iirc, the simalcrum (sp?) Of Molag Bal might still use the 12 rule, but how recently have you tested the regular base game world bosses?

Kanar

Itacira wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

What money? It's not hard to put together an acceptable solo setup. For world bosses you want something closer to a vMA (solo) build, not a DPS build.

Are you sincerely trying to tell me that a vMA setup doesn't require in-game gold ? Because if so, I'd like to kindly remind you that money is relative, and thus a casual or beginner player or even a player who's more into furnishing and RP than anything else might not have it just lying around.

Kanar wrote: »

I main DPS, but I carry tank gear for when I want to do dungeons through the finder. What's the difference? I have to do that but you can't be bothered to throw on Hunding's and spriggan's?

Good for you ! And that is your choice ! What people are pointing out here is that in this game it's a necessity to carry different sets in order to participate in events.

On a final note, I'm not interested in arguing with you. From the tone of your message, you believe people should struggle past the game's problems and unbalances and if you did it then so should everyone else, and I believe problems should be noted and fixed so that everybody can enjoy the game. We're looking at this issue from different perspectives. Let us not waste each other's time.

Have fun crying about it! Maybe if you wring your hands enough, someone else will come fix your problems.

malicia

We often take groups to Sewers, and from time to time the group size will be 12. Some people bring healers, and one or two will bring tanks. Sometimes, though, we meet random who follow our group. The tank is then almost guaranteed not to get loot. It is pretty sucky to do content, play a role that support your group, and get no loot. Same with World Boss hunt events. It is often low level players who joins these events, and it is pretty discouraging for a healer/tank to get no loot simply because they're playing support roles.

VaranisArano

DocFrost72 wrote: »

VaranisArano, are you positive the 12 person limit still exists? It certainly used to, but my healer that does no damage gets rewards from world bosses. Iirc, the simalcrum (sp?) Of Molag Bal might still use the 12 rule, but how recently have you tested the regular base game world bosses?

It certainly aplies to Molag Bal, since there was another litany of complaints about it during the last IC Festival. And while I havent gathered 13+ people on a world boss and double checked their loot vs 3% of damage, Ive never seen any patch notes changing the 12 person loot limit, nor seen any confirmed case of that changing.

Now, from the Molag Bal event we know that the 12 person limit is not the "top 12 DPS" because as you said, healers and tanks get some rewards. It is, however, capped at 12 people.

But frankly, it doesnt matter. If the 12 person loot cap has been removed, then the OP needs to do only 3% of the damage and that can be easily fixed. If the 12 person loot cap is in place, the OP could do 3% or 30% and potentially receive no loot, and build changes arent going to help.

Datolite

Jeez, if you can't complete one daily quest in CWC then you might need to reevaluate your hobbies.

zaria

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The roles of healer and tank only apply in organized group content. If you are not doing that, then why are you spec'ing as one? I mean I really dont get it. Do you run around overland content taunting enemies and holding block hoping someone else will show up?

It is just not that difficult in this game to spec for a bit of damage when you need to. Not saying you have to go full glass cannon, but you need to be able to reasonably kill stuff in this game unless you have group support.

Not entire correct healers are very nice in pvp zergs.
Also on world bosses especially in Orcinium can they be nice.
On this event however its 20+ people hitting the boss as hard as they can so not much healing is needed, 15 players doing 20K will burn an 3M health boss in 10 seconds.

And its no issue swapping between dd an heal, yes an optimized healer would loose out a couple of skills and cp but still be effective. Tanks espesialy health tanks has more of an issue.

What_In_Tarnation

My tank always prepare one dps setup and you'll surprised you don't even need to adjust CP at all. You can still get loot from world boss, cause there're too many dps that doesn't bother throw dot/aoe at all.

SpacemanSpiff1

As a sometimes healer, it's easy to swap a couple skills out to do damage. As a sometimes tank, keep a set of dps gear on you for questing/overland.

DaveMoeDee

Kanar wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The roles of healer and tank only apply in organized group content. If you are not doing that, then why are you spec'ing as one? I mean I really dont get it. Do you run around overland content taunting enemies and holding block hoping someone else will show up?

It is just not that difficult in this game to spec for a bit of damage when you need to. Not saying you have to go full glass cannon, but you need to be able to reasonably kill stuff in this game unless you have group support.

This. There's zero reason to spec as tank or healer for world bosses.

Gear can be swapped, but my tank will still have crappy attribute distribution.

Ultimately, we are talking about a zero sum game anyway. When 30 people are camping a boss, half aren't getting drops. Because there are enough people who don't know what they are doing, my tank can get loot half the time while still wearing my tanking gear so long as spam offense. But their approach to getting loot is broken for events like this with so many people doing the same daily at the same time.

Anotherone773

You only need credit for the kill for WBs. You dont need to be in the top DD to get credit. However this is not the problem. Killing the WB is probably the only easy thing to do in CWC right now. Everything else is a nightmare.

CWC has a lot of tedious gathering in its daily quests. The zone itself is not really designed to handle more than a handful of players running the dailies at a time. So what happens is that you spend all your time fighting other players over very limited resources.

I think i spent 20 minutes last night trying to get the gathering stuff for Imperfect. I had stuff stolen from me three times while i was killing a mob guarding the pile and finally i just started camping a node i needed. it was easier to wait the couple of minutes for a respawn and have to stand around 10 minutes than try to find what i needed.

The gathering quest are normally horrible but during events like this they are really bad. I basically ended up having to do the same thing for the gathering quests which have a much longer spawn time. It took me an hour to do two lousy quests.

It is so frustrating that i am only doing what is necessary for the stupid feathers and that is it,. CWC is the worst zone in the game to run this type of event in. Why couldnt it be Morrowind which can handle a large amount of players running dailies?Oh thats right because that would be intelligent.

Marcus684

Do the bosses even drop anything that you can’t just buy at a guild trader for less than 1000g? Seems to me that the good loot is from the quest giver, and I think you only need to tag the boss to get credit for killing him for the quest.

cheops

Afaik the top 12 consists of top 8 damage dealt, top 4 damage healed and top 4 damage taken. Or is this not applicable to world bosses?

RexyCat

Itacira wrote: »

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

Read above: low DPS like fresh characters also have problems to do enough damage to get a tick when there is too many high damage DPSer around. This isn't an isolated problem to healer or tanks, but also for those that have a new toon for the first time.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

RexyCat wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

@Kanar and @Oreyn_Bearclaw So, what you're saying is, tank and healer playing people should just suck it up and fork out money for dps equipment in case of event, while dps playing people can just go about their usual business.

Sounds like a problem to me.

Read above: low DPS like fresh characters also have problems to do enough damage to get a tick when there is too many high damage DPSer around. This isn't an isolated problem to healer or tanks, but also for those that have a new toon for the first time.

At the end of the day, it's kinda like a bear attack. You dont need to outrun the bear, just the guy next to you. Low level toons have battle scaling and can actually do really good damage. The average player pounding on a WB during one of these events is not putting 40-50k on a boss. I often level via dolmens and that sort of thing, never had an issue getting boss loot at any level. It's mostly a l2p issue. The best way to ensure you get credit is to have a few ground DOTs ticking when the boss spawns, and be ready to hit spammable a few times.