In an effort to halt "faction swapping" should this happen

JobooAGS

Make kills and keeps taken against the leading faction be worth 1.5x the normal ap and being the top faction awards 1.5x ap

JobooAGS

Oops, didnt mean to make the poll private

Royaji

I believe this type of system is the right way to solve faction imbalance. Faction locking will just create a campaign where one faction dominates and the other two don't bother logging in. On the other hand a system that promotes joining loosing factions will help to create a more competitive environment and also self-regulates - when too many people stack on one side and push the balance they will loose their AP bonuses and thus incentive to stack disappears.

Although I don't think that extra AP for kills/captures on the dominant faction is a good idea. It promotes double-teaming and being pushed on both fronts is never fun. I'd rather see a flat 1,5x AP gain multiplier for third place faction.

It may sound like participation rewards but this is a game and we want to create a competitive environment so I find that acceptable. Plus it kinda makes sense that soldiers valiantly fighting on the loosing side will receive more acknowledgement of their efforts than someone in a giant steam-rolling army.

JobooAGS

Royaji wrote: »

I believe this type of system is the right way to solve faction imbalance. Faction locking will just create a campaign where one faction dominates and the other two don't bother logging in. On the other hand a system that promotes joining loosing factions will help to create a more competitive environment and also self-regulates - when too many people stack on one side and push the balance they will loose their AP bonuses and thus incentive to stack disappears.

Although I don't think that extra AP for kills/captures on the dominant faction is a good idea. It promotes double-teaming and being pushed on both fronts is never fun. I'd rather see a flat 1,5x AP gain multiplier for third place faction.

It may sound like participation rewards but this is a game and we want to create a competitive environment so I find that acceptable. Plus it kinda makes sense that soldiers valiantly fighting on the loosing side will receive more acknowledgement of their efforts than someone in a giant steam-rolling army.

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

barshemm

Better idea, quit being hung up on the idea faction swapping matters.

Thoragaal

JobooAGS wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

There is a bonus in place already if a faction continuously has less players and another bonus if a faction has relatively lower score. These two bonuses can stack which leads to insane amount of AP gained. It doesn't help.
People don't change faction mainly to make more AP, they change faction because they want to avoid the pain which comes from feeling completely helpless.

Thoragaal

ops. double post.

JobooAGS

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

There is a bonus in place already if a faction continuously has less players and another bonus if a faction has relatively lower score. These two bonuses can stack which leads to insane amount of AP gained. It doesn't help.
People don't change faction mainly to make more AP, they change faction because they want to avoid the pain which comes from feeling completely helpless.

That leads to the 2nd half of my reply. How would you help mitgate this?

Kartalin

We had low pop bonus on DC last night in Sotha Sil, this was the result of three and a half hours of pvp:



Granted we had a group that averaged about 10 in size and we run a pretty organized raid overall. We don't really need any more incentive to play on a lower pop faction, we're already actively seeking it out.

For solo players, pugs, etc? Because they're not in groups, or they're in pick up groups from zone, they do not communicate well and they do not have the coordination with other players that would help them more effectively fight larger numbers. So to be realistic there's not much we can do for them.

So the solution probably lies on the other side of things, and this has been a major problem in Cyrodiil for a long time now: how do we stop the dominant faction from creating massive zergs of people that just push forward relentlessly against low/no population factions?

Experienced players know that you have to hit factions on multiple fronts to help break up a faction stack, but low pop factions with no organized groups don't really have any recourse there. Some have suggested reducing damage/healing/AP for players when they have so many players of the same faction nearby them already, which may be fine but the already laggy game would grind to a halt with the constant calculations of how many people are close to each person.

Overall? There just may not be a good solution. The root of the problem is that there are a lot of players who believe being a successful pvper means dominating the map. They do not care about campaign health and they do not care about actually fighting other players and testing their skills. For whatever reason, this is the mindset that has taken over a good number of so called pvpers and ZOS has shown that they are willing to cater to this specific crowd at least in large scale AvA by magnifying siege damage and diminishing the ability of smaller groups to take on significantly larger numbers of opponents.

For starters I would suggest bringing back dynamic ultimate generation. There's very little that can be done to help smaller groups take on larger groups of players that doesn't also buff the larger groups. But dynamic ulti gen would actually do just that. Beyond that I am at a loss for anything else that would ameliorate how things currently stand.

Royaji

I think the issue is here

Kartalin wrote: »

Granted we had a group that averaged about 10 in size and we run a pretty organized raid overall. We don't really need any more incentive to play on a lower pop faction, we're already actively seeking it out.

I do not want to devalue your group but generally medium organized groups are not enough to win a campaign. Maybe you do not need that incentive. But others do.

To have a chance at campaign faction needs to have some of those casual players, /zone generals and their lfg zergs who act as a brute force that only pushes in the most obvious directions (like Alessia --> Bleakers --> Chalman) and defends keeps from the same zergs on other factions. While they keep the zerg busy, organized groups can push back-keeps and use fancy tactics to break up said zerg. This backbone of casual players is what is severly lacking on most loosing alliances.

Sacredx

JobooAGS wrote: »

Make kills and keeps taken against the leading faction be worth 1.5x the normal ap and being the top faction awards 1.5x ap

All this will accomplish is a 2v1 against the leading faction until the scores even out. This will do nothing to help rebalance the population, only the score, which will make the scoring system pointless.

The current low pop bonus is very crude and needs a total rework. Change it so that lower pop is calculated more often and instead of awarding points the low pop faction is awarded bonus AP % to encourage natural balancing. The bigger the imbalance the more the %. The key term here is natural balancing. Don't force it, let it work itself out.

Similar to OP idea, but without the forced 2v1.

JobooAGS

Sacredx wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Make kills and keeps taken against the leading faction be worth 1.5x the normal ap and being the top faction awards 1.5x ap

All this will accomplish is a 2v1 against the leading faction until the scores even out. This will do nothing to help rebalance the population, only the score, which will make the scoring system pointless.

The current low pop bonus is very crude and needs a total rework. Change it so that lower pop is calculated more often and instead of awarding points the low pop faction is awarded bonus AP % to encourage natural balancing. The bigger the imbalance the more the %. The key term here is natural balancing. Don't force it, let it work itself out.

Similar to OP idea, but without the forced 2v1.

This idea should work better overall

Kartalin

.Low pop bonus already gives double AP. You suggest increasing that?

Maryal

An underdog bonus is only effective as the ability of that underdog to successfully attain/defend keeps -- neither of which is likely (which is why you are the underdog). Underdogs are typically seen as AP fodder by the other two factions and usually get rolled-over rather quickly. When you are rolled over that fast, even if you got double AP, you still wouldn't be netting very much.

The only real winners in an AP bonus reward for fighting the top faction would be the faction in second-place.

Let's assume it's a prolonged battle and the first place faction wins the keep - they will get a big AP bonus. But, because it was a prolonged battle, the second place faction ends up with a huge amount of AP because they were fighting the first place faction.

Can you not see how this type of system could easily be abused/exploited?

Note: There is no reason to give the top faction the suggested AP bonus reward. They are already the top faction and their faction probably has emperorship (i.e., they likely are already getting the 'faction emperorship' bonuse as well as many of the other Cyrodiil pvp bonuses).

usmguy1234

How about an ap reward at the end of the campaign for not faction hoping? Like 500k ap for the 30 day campaign and every time you play another alliance the amount gets cut by 1/3. Just an idea so don't crucify me.

Sacredx

There is already a thread with plenty

Kartalin wrote: »

.Low pop bonus already gives double AP. You suggest increasing that?

Instead of an "on or off" switch which lasts for hours they need to have slider with much more regular checks. The current low pop system is way too basic to help with balancing the map. I personally don't mind if the low pop factions get huge ap boost as long as it is regularly scaled with the population difference. If they check every 5 mins it may take 20 mins to balance the map again, rather than the current buff that lasts for hours that has no ties to the live populations.

vamp_emily

JobooAGS wrote: »

Make kills and keeps taken against the leading faction be worth 1.5x the normal ap and being the top faction awards 1.5x ap

How is your suggestion going to halt faction swapping? It only encourages it.

Example:
I am on the leading team and I want more AP. What do I do? I faction swap for more AP.

I don't think the real problem is "faction swapping". The real problem has always been population balance. Does it really matter what faction you play on if the population on all alliances are equal?

I was thinking something like this.

Zeni closes all campaigns except for 2 ( one CP and one Non-CP ). A player Ques for a campaign. If the campaign is full then Zeni places you into an overflow campaign. However, if you are placed in an overlow campaign then you are automatically qued for the main campaign. Once there is an opening in the main campaign then you are removed from the overflow campaign and placed into the main campaign.

I think this would solve a few issues but then there are going to be players that complain about lag and players who only want to play in a less populated campaign.

JobooAGS

vamp_emily wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Make kills and keeps taken against the leading faction be worth 1.5x the normal ap and being the top faction awards 1.5x ap

How is your suggestion going to halt faction swapping? It only encourages it.

Example:
I am on the leading team and I want more AP. What do I do? I faction swap for more AP.

I don't think the real problem is "faction swapping". The real problem has always been population balance. Does it really matter what faction you play on if the population on all alliances are equal?

I was thinking something like this.

Zeni closes all campaigns except for 2 ( one CP and one Non-CP ). A player Ques for a campaign. If the campaign is full then Zeni places you into an overflow campaign. However, if you are placed in an overlow campaign then you are automatically qued for the main campaign. Once there is an opening in the main campaign then you are removed from the overflow campaign and placed into the main campaign.

I think this would solve a few issues but then there are going to be players that complain about lag and players who only want to play in a less populated campaign.

You are getting the same ap buff being on 1st place as you are attacking 1st place. For that reason, why would you faction swap?
@Sacredx however made a valid point of forcefully 2v1ing the winning faction being a issue, which to be fair isnt fun for the winning faction.


Your idea on overflow campaigns sounds good on paper and should be tried. Although it would be annoying if you were doing awesome in the overflow then you were pulled into the main

Sacredx

vamp_emily wrote: »

If the campaign is full then Zeni places you into an overflow campaign.

I get that your intent is good to balance the map but this would potentially kill organised groups trying to play together and you will be left with pugs vs pugs. Given we have organised groups of up to 24 running around this would simply not be an option.

O_LYKOS

It's fine as it is imo.

MerlinPendragon

Leave PVP alone please

Thoragaal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

There is a bonus in place already if a faction continuously has less players and another bonus if a faction has relatively lower score. These two bonuses can stack which leads to insane amount of AP gained. It doesn't help.
People don't change faction mainly to make more AP, they change faction because they want to avoid the pain which comes from feeling completely helpless.

That leads to the 2nd half of my reply. How would you help mitgate this?

You're right, I didn't notice the second part. Sorry
First of all, I don't necessarily see faction swapping as an issue. I play AD on PC/EU and during the morning (06-12) there's no lag but also no fights. During the afternoon (12-18) there's a few fights but it's mostly large groups vs small groups attempting to take back their keeps. During the evening (18-00) it's just lag because ppl funnel into zergs.

To get anything out of swapping faction with your character you also need a relatively good score, the longer the campaign has been going the more points said person need to gather in order to get anything out of it.
The reason I bring up the amount of points needed is because these people swapping faction has the time to get those points. But most of these people don't swap faction because they wanna win the campaign. They swap because they don't wanna lose every battle they engage in.
So the analysis needs to be on a battle-to-battle perspective.
I'm in an active pvp guild with about 200 people. Personal skill differs largely between players, but most people have a fundamental idea what to do in terms of group play. And we almost exclusively do large scale combat. And the only reason I play with them is because of the community it brings, with said type of combat.
The people swapping factions are mostly "lone wolfs" or small scalers where a community isn't a factor.
So what's my personal suggestion?
Gather people up into a big community!
Pick up those new pvp'ers wanting to learn, because everyone can learn to a certain extent.
Be patient, because it takes time to build a solid foundation. The guild I'm in has been around for maybe 3 years and I've been a part of it for 1½ maybe.
If you also can communicate without any language barrier it's all the better. The language barrier is an important point, because communication is key in order to help someone becoming better.

The reason people swap faction is because they don't wanna die over and over again. Most of the time they die because 1) They run into bigger groups, or 2) They run with, comparatively, inexperienced players.
With proper communication you can avoid those bigger groups (if you know the zerg is at Ash, then maybe you and your two friends shouldn't go there to pick a fight).
With a community you can learn to become better and the community also offers a big reason to continue the fight.

Stay critical, stay observant and be humble

Rake

yes

JobooAGS

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

There is a bonus in place already if a faction continuously has less players and another bonus if a faction has relatively lower score. These two bonuses can stack which leads to insane amount of AP gained. It doesn't help.
People don't change faction mainly to make more AP, they change faction because they want to avoid the pain which comes from feeling completely helpless.

That leads to the 2nd half of my reply. How would you help mitgate this?

You're right, I didn't notice the second part. Sorry
First of all, I don't necessarily see faction swapping as an issue. I play AD on PC/EU and during the morning (06-12) there's no lag but also no fights. During the afternoon (12-18) there's a few fights but it's mostly large groups vs small groups attempting to take back their keeps. During the evening (18-00) it's just lag because ppl funnel into zergs.

To get anything out of swapping faction with your character you also need a relatively good score, the longer the campaign has been going the more points said person need to gather in order to get anything out of it.
The reason I bring up the amount of points needed is because these people swapping faction has the time to get those points. But most of these people don't swap faction because they wanna win the campaign. They swap because they don't wanna lose every battle they engage in.
So the analysis needs to be on a battle-to-battle perspective.
I'm in an active pvp guild with about 200 people. Personal skill differs largely between players, but most people have a fundamental idea what to do in terms of group play. And we almost exclusively do large scale combat. And the only reason I play with them is because of the community it brings, with said type of combat.
The people swapping factions are mostly "lone wolfs" or small scalers where a community isn't a factor.
So what's my personal suggestion?
Gather people up into a big community!
Pick up those new pvp'ers wanting to learn, because everyone can learn to a certain extent.
Be patient, because it takes time to build a solid foundation. The guild I'm in has been around for maybe 3 years and I've been a part of it for 1½ maybe.
If you also can communicate without any language barrier it's all the better. The language barrier is an important point, because communication is key in order to help someone becoming better.

The reason people swap faction is because they don't wanna die over and over again. Most of the time they die because 1) They run into bigger groups, or 2) They run with, comparatively, inexperienced players.
With proper communication you can avoid those bigger groups (if you know the zerg is at Ash, then maybe you and your two friends shouldn't go there to pick a fight).
With a community you can learn to become better and the community also offers a big reason to continue the fight.

Stay critical, stay observant and be humble

So it boils down to make your own groups and guilds/give a reason for people to stay and to be patient while doing so. Sounds reasonable. The main difficulty is however getting people to listen and having consistent people (like you said that requires patience and timing)

Thoragaal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an underdog bonus like you said (giving an ap buff to 3rd place) and would give some incentive to not bail when your faction is losing.

One thing I juat thought of is what happens when your faction gets gated/loses scrolls. I mention this due to the massive drop off of players on such faction (who wants to get stomped on?)

There is a bonus in place already if a faction continuously has less players and another bonus if a faction has relatively lower score. These two bonuses can stack which leads to insane amount of AP gained. It doesn't help.
People don't change faction mainly to make more AP, they change faction because they want to avoid the pain which comes from feeling completely helpless.

That leads to the 2nd half of my reply. How would you help mitgate this?

You're right, I didn't notice the second part. Sorry
First of all, I don't necessarily see faction swapping as an issue. I play AD on PC/EU and during the morning (06-12) there's no lag but also no fights. During the afternoon (12-18) there's a few fights but it's mostly large groups vs small groups attempting to take back their keeps. During the evening (18-00) it's just lag because ppl funnel into zergs.

To get anything out of swapping faction with your character you also need a relatively good score, the longer the campaign has been going the more points said person need to gather in order to get anything out of it.
The reason I bring up the amount of points needed is because these people swapping faction has the time to get those points. But most of these people don't swap faction because they wanna win the campaign. They swap because they don't wanna lose every battle they engage in.
So the analysis needs to be on a battle-to-battle perspective.
I'm in an active pvp guild with about 200 people. Personal skill differs largely between players, but most people have a fundamental idea what to do in terms of group play. And we almost exclusively do large scale combat. And the only reason I play with them is because of the community it brings, with said type of combat.
The people swapping factions are mostly "lone wolfs" or small scalers where a community isn't a factor.
So what's my personal suggestion?
Gather people up into a big community!
Pick up those new pvp'ers wanting to learn, because everyone can learn to a certain extent.
Be patient, because it takes time to build a solid foundation. The guild I'm in has been around for maybe 3 years and I've been a part of it for 1½ maybe.
If you also can communicate without any language barrier it's all the better. The language barrier is an important point, because communication is key in order to help someone becoming better.

The reason people swap faction is because they don't wanna die over and over again. Most of the time they die because 1) They run into bigger groups, or 2) They run with, comparatively, inexperienced players.
With proper communication you can avoid those bigger groups (if you know the zerg is at Ash, then maybe you and your two friends shouldn't go there to pick a fight).
With a community you can learn to become better and the community also offers a big reason to continue the fight.

Stay critical, stay observant and be humble

So it boils down to make your own groups and guilds/give a reason for people to stay and to be patient while doing so. Sounds reasonable. The main difficulty is however getting people to listen and having consistent people (like you said that requires patience and timing)

Yeah it takes time. But that's what you gotta do for large scale combat if you want to compete. The small scalers/solo players don't make a difference for the score anyway. However, one person taking the lead, can make a Huge difference!

Edit: But, if you start a guild and just let it take time, it will start growing. 2 steps forward 1 step back

baronzilch

A simple solution is that when you enter Cyrodiil your account is locked to that alliance (for Cyrodiil only, don't want to mess with PVE/BG availability ok) for 8 hours.

That way for the current play session (some people play longer than 8 hours, lol, most don't) you can only play a single alliance (in Cyrodiil). It resets after 8 hours so the next play session you can play a different alliance in Cyrodiil if desired.

Would also need a way to force your character out of Cyrodiil at the character choice screen, so you don't get locked unwillingly.

Would stop the frequent swapping during single play sessions and might dissuade some spys as well. Perhaps generate some faction loyalty (for the evening anyways).

Would this work/be reasonable?

bagon

baronzilch wrote: »

A simple solution is that when you enter Cyrodiil your account is locked to that alliance (for Cyrodiil only, don't want to mess with PVE/BG availability ok) for 8 hours.

That way for the current play session (some people play longer than 8 hours, lol, most don't) you can only play a single alliance (in Cyrodiil). It resets after 8 hours so the next play session you can play a different alliance in Cyrodiil if desired.

Would also need a way to force your character out of Cyrodiil at the character choice screen, so you don't get locked unwillingly.

Would stop the frequent swapping during single play sessions and might dissuade some spys as well. Perhaps generate some faction loyalty (for the evening anyways).

Would this work/be reasonable?

Thats just dumb. My sorc is on blue and my templar is on ad. What happens when im on blue and i decide i want 2 play my templar? I cant pvp on it for 8 hours? What happens when im looking for smallscale or solo pvp. and every1 on my faction is zerging everyone else and there is no action. What happens when i want to play with my yellow friends but i logged onto my blue an hour ago to play with blue friends. Believe it or not 90% of pvp players dont care about who wins or loses a campaign, people are just zerging for ap or looking for a quick fight 90% of the time when they are going keep to keep.

Thoragaal

baronzilch wrote: »

A simple solution is that when you enter Cyrodiil your account is locked to that alliance (for Cyrodiil only, don't want to mess with PVE/BG availability ok) for 8 hours.
[...]
[...]
[...]
Would this work/be reasonable?

I had some similar thoughts a while ago, but I don't remember why I dropped the ball on the idea.
Maybe it had to do with people playing with others from different factions, to which the effect would be "I can't play now, on my main, in case my friends come online later, because I would be locked out".

baronzilch

bagon wrote: »

Believe it or not 90% of pvp players dont care about who wins or loses a campaign, people are just zerging for ap or looking for a quick fight 90% of the time when they are going keep to keep.

I don't believe it. In my experience, anecdotally, it's more like 50-50. Overall, though, I think most people actually want a 'fair' game.

Personally I don't give a crap about AP. Nor the tier prizes. I would PvP almost every play session, like I have for four years even if there were zero rewards. (but, then I'd probably have no one to play against, lol.)

I'm looking for good, fun big battles and to take part in some comraderie, teamwork and strategy. And, btw, I run solo 99.9% of the time - but, I really love taking part in the 20+ vs. 20+ fights/long keep battles as well as strategically defense capping objectives 'for the realm'. This is why I play this game.

If it's just an AP farm/quick fight, why not use BGs? Like I said, any kind of lock would apply to Cyrodiil only. (I will admit here that I have never been to a ESO BG; small-scale king of the hill/flag capture games kind of bore me; been there done that it in dozens of games. So, if the consensus is BGs suck or there is not enough rewards for some people, then that's a fair complaint - but, should be addressed separately.)

I do get where your coming from. MY personal preference is that we are locked for the entire campaign. ALL my characters are one faction as well, because that's how I roll. But, I realize not everyone agrees and this game already allows you to cross-faction and that isn't going to change due to many of your (quite correct) concerns about playing with friends, etc. However, I think this would be more than a fair compromise between the zergers and the PvP purists.

Faction hopping in Cyrodiil is getting out of control. It's becoming non-stop zergs PVdooring one way and then an hour later the zerg moves to another side and PVdoors right back. It's great AP gain. I get that. But, to me, it's not even really PvP and is ruining the integrity (and fun) of the game.

Do you (or anyone else) have any actual suggestion on how to fix this/compromise for both our sake?