What factors going into making a trial Group for you?

Tasear

What makes you take one class over another? What skills are most important in trials? What gear is most important? What kind of support do you need? Looking to see different perspectives on the subject matter.

Is there anything you wish was different?

FrostFallFox

I only play Magicka Warden, and for the moment I can give minor toughness to the group, until 1 of the support roles in my group decides to become a warden also. I also always wear master architect for the group buff. I rely on the healers to use Ele Drain and orbs so I can use blue food and not run out of magic all the time.

idk

It really depends. Even when considering being competitive it still depends on the trial and if it is progression or just a speed run.

For DPS
The newer mini trials such as vAS and vCR it is ranged DPS. Since stam does not really have a good ranged choice (warden prob being best) and Magicka has had better survival it has been left to three classes as magicka, and one of those does not really count leaving magNB and magSorc.

For pretty much anything else it depends on the group since most of the other trials can handle melee well it is a choice between what is needed. While I have every class both directions I mostly stick to 4 characters. I enjoy stamNB the most but happy to bring stamplar for the buff.

Healing it is only Templar. I have a warden healer but am most comfortable with Templar due to more than 4 years time in the saddle but I do not heal progression anymore.

Tanking is a no brainer. DK or go home though been using my Warden more since Toughness has been locked to that class.

Tasear

idk wrote: »

It really depends. Even when considering being competitive it still depends on the trial and if it is progression or just a speed run.

For DPS
The newer mini trials such as vAS and vCR it is ranged DPS. Since stam does not really have a good ranged choice (warden prob being best) and Magicka has had better survival it has been left to three classes as magicka, and one of those does not really count leaving magNB and magSorc.

For pretty much anything else it depends on the group since most of the other trials can handle melee well it is a choice between what is needed. While I have every class both directions I mostly stick to 4 characters. I enjoy stamNB the most but happy to bring stamplar for the buff.

Healing it is only Templar. I have a warden healer but am most comfortable with Templar due to more than 4 years time in the saddle but I do not heal progression anymore.

Tanking is a no brainer. DK or go home though been using my Warden more since Toughness has been locked to that class.

Is there anything you wish was different with group compositions for trials?

Liofa

First Tank > DK for Engulfing and Minor Brutality
Second Tank > Warden for Toughness but if group doesn't need it and comfortable without, DK again for better Engulfing uptime.

First Healer > Templar for Power of the Light and Minor Sorcery
Second Healer > Sorcerer for Conduit and Concussion uptime

All DDs > Nightblade. Either Magicka or Stamina, depending on trial.

There is only one way you can get a Magicka Sorcerer DPS and that's when both healers are not Sorcerer.

This is how trial composition looks like in Murkmire, well pretty much the last 3-4 patches.

Tasear

Liofa wrote: »

First Tank > DK for Engulfing and Minor Brutality
Second Tank > Warden for Toughness but if group doesn't need it and comfortable without, DK again for better Engulfing uptime.

First Healer > Templar for Power of the Light and Minor Sorcery
Second Healer > Sorcerer for Conduit and Concussion uptime

All DDs > Nightblade. Either Magicka or Stamina, depending on trial.

There is only one way you can get a Magicka Sorcerer DPS and that's when both healers are not Sorcerer.

This is how trial composition looks like in Murkmire, well pretty much the last 3-4 patches.

I started the thread to get perspective on different type of raiders. Not everyone does things the same.

Princess_Ciri

Liofa wrote: »

First Healer > Templar for Power of the Light and Minor Sorcery
Second Healer > Sorcerer for Conduit and Concussion uptime

Then why am I playing Warden healer, Liofa?!?!?!? Why?!?!?!?!

T3hasiangod

For a pure leaderboard run, pushing for the best scores and times:

Tank 1: DK for Engulfing + Minor Brutality
Tank 2: Warden for Toughness if needed, otherwise DK for more Engulfing (either option is fine)

Healer 1: Templar for Minor Sorc + PotL
Healer 2: Sorcerer for Conduit + Concussed + Minor Prophecy (a bit more challenging to get that last one in, but it's possible with some creative thinking)

DPS: all magNBs (for mini-trials) or a mix of stamNBs and magNBs (all other trials) for maximum DPS + Minor Savagery


For a progression run, pushing for a clear:

Tank 1: DK
Tank 2: DK

Healer 1: Templar
Healer 2: Templar or Warden

DPS: Whatever people work best with (all DPS specs are able to clear all content in the game)

Tasear

T3hasiangod wrote: »

For a pure leaderboard run, pushing for the best scores and times:

Tank 1: DK for Engulfing + Minor Brutality
Tank 2: Warden for Toughness if needed, otherwise DK for more Engulfing (either option is fine)

Healer 1: Templar for Minor Sorc + PotL
Healer 2: Sorcerer for Conduit + Concussed + Minor Prophecy (a bit more challenging to get that last one in, but it's possible with some creative thinking)

DPS: all magNBs (for mini-trials) or a mix of stamNBs and magNBs (all other trials) for maximum DPS + Minor Savagery


For a progression run, pushing for a clear:

Tank 1: DK
Tank 2: DK

Healer 1: Templar
Healer 2: Templar or Warden

DPS: Whatever people work best with (all DPS specs are able to clear all content in the game)

What causes limitations for people in DPS they bring? I mean recently we had class passives buffed. Why didn't that help some people is the question.

T3hasiangod

It's a pure numbers game. Nightblades have the highest DPS ceiling so far in this (and previous) patches. Sure, magplars can get really close, and so can stamdens. But ultimately, the magNB and stamNB are the top DPS for their respective specs. If you're pushing for that last second off to get that highest score, then that 2k to 3k difference in DPS matters a lot.

Divided among 8 players, that's a total of 16k to 24k difference in group DPS, which is not an insignificant number. That's equal to 960k to 1.44 million damage you're missing per minute.

Tasear

T3hasiangod wrote: »

It's a pure numbers game. Nightblades have the highest DPS ceiling so far in this (and previous) patches. Sure, magplars can get really close, and so can stamdens. But ultimately, the magNB and stamNB are the top DPS for their respective specs. If you're pushing for that last second off to get that highest score, then that 2k to 3k difference in DPS matters a lot.

Divided among 8 players, that's a total of 16k to 24k difference in group DPS, which is not an insignificant number. That's equal to 960k to 1.44 million damage you're missing per minute.

What would make it not a pure numbers game or is simply easier for everyone to have similar DPS ceilings?

T3hasiangod

It will never not be a numbers game. For us end-gamers, it'll always be looking for what spec puts out the best DPS or the best group support. There is no way to escape this if you are in that top tier level of raiding.

Tasear

T3hasiangod wrote: »

It will never not be a numbers game. For us end-gamers, it'll always be looking for what spec puts out the best DPS or the best group support. There is no way to escape this if you are in that top tier level of raiding.

Well let's redirect, what about things like uptimes on concussion and such. Things that help the group?

What if we didn't have IA on healers for example? Would this lead to more Sorc DPS needed in competitive endgame?

What is enfluging flames scaled better on dps then tank?

I am trying to get to heart of issues or concerns people bring up about competive endgame? What is important for you? What are you not liking with group diversity?

Royaji

I pretty much agree with previous posters. Either it's a score run and then there is only one way of doing it "right". Or it is a more casual/progression run and then why would you even dictate what kind of group composition do you need? Everything in-between is just a sliding scale of how much you demand the aforementioned meta group.

Sparr0w

T3hasiangod wrote: »

It's a pure numbers game. Nightblades have the highest DPS ceiling so far in this (and previous) patches. Sure, magplars can get really close, and so can stamdens. But ultimately, the magNB and stamNB are the top DPS for their respective specs. If you're pushing for that last second off to get that highest score, then that 2k to 3k difference in DPS matters a lot.

Divided among 8 players, that's a total of 16k to 24k difference in group DPS, which is not an insignificant number. That's equal to 960k to 1.44 million damage you're missing per minute.

Don't MagPlar have a higher 'ceiling' than MagBlade tho this patch? Under optimal conditions I've seen higher

Sparr0w

Group comp is whatever works best. For normal every day runs it's whatever people feel most comfortable with.

My main team has 2x MagDK, 1x StamDK, 1x StamSorc 2x MagNB 1x MagPlar 1x MagSorc 2x TankDK 1x HealDen 1x HealPlar

For progression runs probably the same, maybe some stam swap for mag for ranged and a bit more survivability, maybe 2x healplars, maybe a TankDen for toughness.

For score pushes it's basically whats listed above, get all class passives that can be brought to the table while losing minimal DPS or utility. In that case it's 1x HealSorc (Conduit), 1x TankDen (Toughness), 1x TankDK (Flames), 1x HealPlar (PotL) followed by either MagNB, StamNB, MagPlar, StamDen. Sometimes have 1 or 2 variations.

Tasear

Sparr0w wrote: »

Group comp is whatever works best. For normal every day runs it's whatever people feel most comfortable with.

My main team has 2x MagDK, 1x StamDK, 1x StamSorc 2x MagNB 1x MagPlar 1x MagSorc 2x TankDK 1x HealDen 1x HealPlar

For progression runs probably the same, maybe some stam swap for mag for ranged and a bit more survivability, maybe 2x healplars, maybe a TankDen for toughness.

For score pushes it's basically whats listed above, get all class passives that can be brought to the table while losing minimal DPS or utility. In that case it's 1x HealSorc (Conduit), 1x TankDen (Toughness), 1x TankDK (Flames), 1x HealPlar (PotL) followed by either MagNB, StamNB, MagPlar, StamDen. Sometimes have 1 or 2 variations.

Would adding more synergies change things? What if there were more buffs in the game or supportiv3 passives. Say things like that you could buy of sorts with cp?

Sparr0w

Tasear wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Group comp is whatever works best. For normal every day runs it's whatever people feel most comfortable with.

My main team has 2x MagDK, 1x StamDK, 1x StamSorc 2x MagNB 1x MagPlar 1x MagSorc 2x TankDK 1x HealDen 1x HealPlar

For progression runs probably the same, maybe some stam swap for mag for ranged and a bit more survivability, maybe 2x healplars, maybe a TankDen for toughness.

For score pushes it's basically whats listed above, get all class passives that can be brought to the table while losing minimal DPS or utility. In that case it's 1x HealSorc (Conduit), 1x TankDen (Toughness), 1x TankDK (Flames), 1x HealPlar (PotL) followed by either MagNB, StamNB, MagPlar, StamDen. Sometimes have 1 or 2 variations.

Would adding more synergies change things? What if there were more buffs in the game or supportiv3 passives. Say things like that you could buy of sorts with cp?

Maybe for the non-score pushing runs, people might let me tank or heal on my nightblade

For pure score pushing runs I don't believe it will, as score is basically how quick you can kill the boss(es) without dying so essentially a numbers game of how high you can push your groups DPS, and for that reason only MagNB, StamNB, MagPlar and StamDen are brought as asian said above the couple k dps higher they are does really add up.

Kikke

Bloody Casuals:
Anything goes.

Casuals:
Will keep the tank meta, and have 0 regards to how group synergies work

Try-Hards:
Will run meta score teams for progression and have vague clue about why they do so.

Score runners
2 DK tanks, 1 Templar Healer, 1 warden healer, 2 mNBs, 1 magTemp, 1 magSorc and 4 stam NBs

John_Falstaff

@Tasear , one thing I feel is that while ZOS began to grant classes their own buffs to bring to the table to force synergy and give incentive to include different damage dealers in, they didn't seem to pay attention to details. It's easier for certain specs to bring those buffs than for others. Minor Brutality is easily given by DK tank, but not so easily by stamDK DPS, while NBs give their extra crit to the group effortlessly, by doing their bread-and-butter rotation (both mNB and sNB). Sorcs suffer from same issue, they have their 'group offering' attached to less than handy skills. As sDK main, I see how my own group buff further pigeonholes the class into tanking role. So, ZOS did make attempt at 'forced diversity', but I don't think the attempt is well thought through.

Tasear

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tasear , one thing I feel is that while ZOS began to grant classes their own buffs to bring to the table to force synergy and give incentive to include different damage dealers in, they didn't seem to pay attention to details. It's easier for certain specs to bring those buffs than for others. Minor Brutality is easily given by DK tank, but not so easily by stamDK DPS, while NBs give their extra crit to the group effortlessly, by doing their bread-and-butter rotation (both mNB and sNB). Sorcs suffer from same issue, they have their 'group offering' attached to less than handy skills. As sDK main, I see how my own group buff further pigeonholes the class into tanking role. So, ZOS did make attempt at 'forced diversity', but I don't think the attempt is well thought through.

How about wardens minor toughness?

Sparr0w

Tasear wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tasear , one thing I feel is that while ZOS began to grant classes their own buffs to bring to the table to force synergy and give incentive to include different damage dealers in, they didn't seem to pay attention to details. It's easier for certain specs to bring those buffs than for others. Minor Brutality is easily given by DK tank, but not so easily by stamDK DPS, while NBs give their extra crit to the group effortlessly, by doing their bread-and-butter rotation (both mNB and sNB). Sorcs suffer from same issue, they have their 'group offering' attached to less than handy skills. As sDK main, I see how my own group buff further pigeonholes the class into tanking role. So, ZOS did make attempt at 'forced diversity', but I don't think the attempt is well thought through.

How about wardens minor toughness?

Same thing there imo, tanks have the easiest time keeping this up via life steal, then healers. DD's will have to break rotation and sacrifice a skill to bring this buff to the groups.

LioraValkyrie

Tasear wrote: »

What makes you take one class over another? What skills are most important in trials? What gear is most important? What kind of support do you need? Looking to see different perspectives on the subject matter.

Is there anything you wish was different?

What class over another? Whether it is the class my group member wants to play on.
What skills are most important? Completely situational. Use your brains, guys.
What gear is most important? Avoid accidental 4x Necro, 1x Rubedo Leather Bracers of Stamina.
What kind of support do you need? Moral support, please.
Is there anything you wish was different? Not really.

Raiding is what you make it. My guild has cleared all vet trials (not all HMs- yet!) using this approach. It's fun as hell.

BejaProphet

What I am hearing.

End game meta is about score.

Score is about speed.

Speed is about DPS.

If they want to fix the meta lock. Something in that chain has to change. For example if score wasn’t based on completion time, but something else became weightier. Then the meta would change.

But then again, you’d only create a new meta and we’d be asking the same things about that meta.

BejaProphet

Perhaps ZOS should just create monthly themes. Have score multipliers for a certain group composition for that month, constantly changing. Sort of a roving, “ok hot shots, can you do it like this?....”

BigBadVolk

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

Also this entire thread is a bait so you can call us mean elitists

Typical mean elitists

Sparr0w

BejaProphet wrote: »

Perhaps ZOS should just create monthly themes. Have score multipliers for a certain group composition for that month, constantly changing. Sort of a roving, “ok hot shots, can you do it like this?....”

royo

Every time I see Liofa pour his energy into these bait threads I think to myself, "he would have made a great magsorc dd."

mateoz

What makes you take one class over another? Magika VS Stamina
What skills are most important in trials? Healing Orbs
What gear is most important? Anything close to meta
What kind of support do you need? 2 DK tank and 2 templar healer most of the time
Is there anything you wish was different? Yes, First the switch for HM should all be reversible in every trials. When someone disconnect he should be able to get his loot. We still have bugs in craglon trials that are years old.

To achieve class diversity some class need to be buff in PVE like the warden or Mag DK

T3hasiangod

Sparr0w wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

It's a pure numbers game. Nightblades have the highest DPS ceiling so far in this (and previous) patches. Sure, magplars can get really close, and so can stamdens. But ultimately, the magNB and stamNB are the top DPS for their respective specs. If you're pushing for that last second off to get that highest score, then that 2k to 3k difference in DPS matters a lot.

Divided among 8 players, that's a total of 16k to 24k difference in group DPS, which is not an insignificant number. That's equal to 960k to 1.44 million damage you're missing per minute.

Don't MagPlar have a higher 'ceiling' than MagBlade tho this patch? Under optimal conditions I've seen higher

Only if magplars get 100 percent uptime on Minor Berserk. Generally speaking, it's not really a realistic or consistent condition, even in the best raid groups. MagNBs have innate Minor Berserk, so they will pull consistently higher than magplars.

pelle412

Everything boils down to what provides the highest possible DPS. High DPS in trials means shorter fights and less exposure to challenging mechanics. Since MagDK isn't really competitive at the top end in a melee spot, the tanks provide engulfing flames, so the tank spots are often reserved for a DK. For healers, having a templar and a warden works well, with access to one more synergy and minor toughness (but that's not exactly a must). Two templars are just fine too. There's enough synergies available to keep high alkosh uptimes.

The idea of bringing more group utility in the last update was nice, but it didn't really change anything. It always boils down to maximum possible DPS. Magsorcs are usually only included for their conduit synergy. There are other classes that do more damage. The off-balance changes in dragon bones shifted the focus away from shock (exploiter) into fire more than before that. Concussion isn't needed. Healers run IA so the group has minor vulnerability from that. Chilled and frost damage also isn't needed as its inferior to fire.

For progression groups I think it's a bit more flexible. You pick your group based on the people and they run the classes they feel work best for them as you're learning how to deal with the mechanics.