Conceptual idea - a "fair" DPS test

MJallday

This is just a rambling thought/idea for a rainy Monday. Wanted to see what the community thoughts were.

We often see people rubbishing the DPS tests. This is for many reasons

• Its not realistic to a fight
• The dummy doesn’t fight back
• You can just stand there and spam sets
• You can cheese the result
• You can be buffed off others
So what ive done is conceptualize a “fair” DPS test.

So my idea is :
Test needs to be Single Target and Multi-Target. This prevents single target cheese.
Test needs to Simulate Dungeon Trial Situation lifelikeness + Simulate being attacked back. This way you have to slot heals/shields.

this is how i would do it -

Clock starts on entry to an arena
Fight one : 1 Enemy, standard normal reistance, doenst move. 30k health
Fight two : 5 enemys, standard normal resistance, doesn’t move, 30k health, but each stood 3 meters apart
Fight three : 1 Enemy, veteran resistance, 500k health, doesn’t move
Fight four : 1 enemy, world boss, 1m health . Will one shot hit for 17k , will light attack for 5k
Timer ends when boss is dead
End time - Start time = seconds . DPS total = 1,680,000 / seconds

what do people think?

kathandira

People just need to not be naive, and realize that a Test Dummy test is your pure uninterrupted DPS and not a representation of actual combat. I don't see a need to change anything other than the populations perception.

LeagueTroll

Incoming crybabies:

Man, what's the point of dps test anyways, just elitist showing off.
I just want that hof skin without paying for carry, ppl are so mean they want me parse 40k with no cheese.
I am pretty sure my awesome snipe build does more than enough dmg to complete it.
Stop this, this hurt my feelings

tmbrinks

Dummies actually need to have adjustable "traits" for more reliable dps measures.

Does a healer run ele-drain? reduce resistance and keep minor magickasteal on it for the whole fight instead of you having to self cast it (or bring a friend in)

Does tank puncture the boss? Providing major fracture. Put it on.

Give us options for the dummy, raid debuffed, raid buffed, so you can see what you can do with all the buffs that you'll get in the content you're going to run.

I agree with the other poster. You are talking about a perception issue, rather than a game issue.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Agree about the Dummy test. I have never done well on the Test Dummy so just don't give a hoot about DPS parses on it.

Does that mean I can't get good DPS? Oh no. It doesn't. I have soloed every dungeon in game (non DLC) in Normal that has the mechanics for solo player with no death on my Stamina and Magicka characters. (Oh, I did die like 5 times soloing COA2 in Normal) I have soloed several dungeons in Vet as well but with a few deaths here and there. Running Combat Metrics I see what my DPS average is on mob fights and boss fights and I usually get 24K to 40K DPS averages on those boss fights that have no mobs such as the flying squid boss (LOL) in Dark Shade Caverns I. So I don't give a hoot about the Test Dummy parses. They don't fight back, there is no situational awareness, there is nothing to fear about your character dying.

themaddaedra

We had an applicant who lowered a 6m dummy to 3m, then made a parse with 10 elemental weapon hits and 17 impale hits lol.

He got rejected. Idk how it can be cheesed. CMX pretty much tells you everything, you can check and make your judgement accordingly.

tmbrinks

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Agree about the Dummy test. I have never done well on the Test Dummy so just don't give a hoot about DPS parses on it.

Does that mean I can't get good DPS? Oh no. It doesn't. I have soloed every dungeon in game (non DLC) in Normal that has the mechanics for solo player with no death on my Stamina and Magicka characters. (Oh, I did die like 5 times soloing COA2 in Normal) I have soloed several dungeons in Vet as well but with a few deaths here and there. Running Combat Metrics I see what my DPS average is on mob fights and boss fights and I usually get 24K to 40K DPS averages on those boss fights that have no mobs such as the flying squid boss (LOL) in Dark Shade Caverns I. So I don't give a hoot about the Test Dummy parses. They don't fight back, there is no situational awareness, there is nothing to fear about your character dying.

I agree, the dummy does not fight back. It does nothing about the mechanics of the fight. However, you still need to practice rotations, making your can cast those skills while you are doing the mechanics. The mechanics of every fight are different, so it'd be impossible to simulate that using a target dummy, or a set of tests that were proposed. Use the dummy to practice rotation, getting good at your dps. Then use the dungeons/trials/MA to practice doing that damage while surviving.

I will say, as an end-game pve player, DPS is very important, but staying alive is even more. Dead DPS = No DPS. Would gladly take the DPS doing 2k dps less, but only dies once or twice, over the parse king who does more dps, but is dead for half the raid.

The best are the ones who can do that dps while still doing mechanics. Those are the names you see at the top of the leaderboards.

molecule

You're just replacing 1 fake scenario with another.

If i buy a car with a 150mph top speed, common sense tells me not to expect 150mph when i drive it round the corner to the shops.

The current 'test' shows a maximum, not an actual in every scenario score.

Nevasca

Dummys don't represent your DPS in raids. It just says that if you focus solely on your DPS, you can achieve X solo buffed. It's a fine measurement to filter people who know how to do a proper rotation and weave, and people who don't. Everyone needs to actually play the trial to get experience to play around mechanics.

Judas Helviaryn

I feel this is a common misconception regarding dummy parsing. Test dummies are not there to train you for a real fight. They're one part of a multi-step practice regimen meant to develop your proficiency, chiefly as a damage dealer, in the game.

Dummies are step one. They provide you an opportunity to test, build, and determine both your DPS baseline and ceiling, in a controlled environment. Knowing your DPS potential is paramount before you move onto learning to utilize it in a real fight, when accounting for variables such as incoming damage, outgoing debuffs, moving targets resulting in a net loss of DPS, and the like.

Hopping into a dungeon, therefore, would be step two. Step one is only useful, though fundamental, for ascertaining your potential, not your actual proficiency. Competent guilds which require a certain level of DPS to start out with want to know the people applying can be worked with to nail down the later steps towards competency.

kathandira

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Dummys don't represent your DPS in raids. It just says that if you focus solely on your DPS, you can achieve X solo buffed. It's a fine measurement to filter people who know how to do a proper rotation and weave, and people who don't. Everyone needs to actually play the trial to get experience to play around mechanics.

I think that is a fair assessment. It is only a part of the whole picture to determine if a person is ready to do Veteran Content.

GreenhaloX

Good/right skillset + effective rotations = dead adds/boss without you (your toon) dying is good dps test. Ha ha

Colecovision

I just wish we could select debuffs for the dummy.

Donny_Vito

themaddaedra wrote: »

We had an applicant who lowered a 6m dummy to 3m, then made a parse with 10 elemental weapon hits and 17 impale hits lol.

He got rejected. Idk how it can be cheesed. CMX pretty much tells you everything, you can check and make your judgement accordingly.

Console?

themaddaedra

Donny_Vito wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

We had an applicant who lowered a 6m dummy to 3m, then made a parse with 10 elemental weapon hits and 17 impale hits lol.

He got rejected. Idk how it can be cheesed. CMX pretty much tells you everything, you can check and make your judgement accordingly.

Console?

If we take console as a criteria over discussions it'd be a total mess lmao. I feel sad for console players, but it's beyond me.

For console it'd require bit more work but still easy to avoid cheese. Group your applicant and watch them parsing. Or ask them to make a video. I don't even know how u guys do it normally lol. But i'd definitely know that in-game dps meter couldn't be my criteria eh.

PouletRico

Dummys are only useful for theorycrafting.

UPrime

I liked how Vindictus did DPS. On the boss fight they'd show a summary of your own %dmg and what it ranked in the group. They also showed the top. This shows individuals where they stack up in the team so they know where to improve.

BleedMe_AnOcean

I'm with others here. DPS checks are unnecessary and naïve, at best. What good does one's DPS do - single target or AoE - if one can't stay alive long enough during the encounter to actually do any damage?

I can maybe see the value in a DPS check if you're in a hardcore trial group & you're beating your head off the same boss repeatedly, but other than that, epeen measurements aren't really important.

TheGreatBlackBear

What I'd like to know is why people make a big deal about parses being solo. In no run will you ever just be fighting a boss without being buffed yourself or without the boss having some kind of debuff on it.

idk

Not needed. The dummy test as it is serves as a start, but only a start.

How a player actually does in a real trial fight that has actual mechanics is where the real test will always be. It cannot be simulated.

As has been pointed out, some players do well on a simple dummy test but when they need to pay attention they cannot keep their dps going and/or die far to often. Dead dps do no DPS.

Judas Helviaryn

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

What I'd like to know is why people make a big deal about parses being solo. In no run will you ever just be fighting a boss without being buffed yourself or without the boss having some kind of debuff on it.

Because they're meant to be done with the fewest variables possible. A group makes it harder to find your own faults in a parse.

kathandira

There is a useful reason to know a players DPS on a Test Dummy.

If you are doing Vet Trials, and a player wants to join, you want to know that they can follow a rotation, and sustain the resources in the most basic environment possible. If they are only pulling 5k DPS on a test dummy, there is no way they will be able to keep up in Vet Trails. Especially considered high DPS builds can do more than that by simply using Heavy Attack (I've tested this).

But that is only the first step to knowing if the player is capable of doing the content. There are other factors which need to be judged once they are in the Trial its self. Can they understand and follow instructions, execute mechanics, having keen situational awareness, perform well under pressure, keep themselves alive, quickly react to rezzes as needed and prioritize who needs to be rezzed. There are many things to be considered in Vet.

If the player is unable to pass the first hurdle, there is no reason to go any further until they get step one taken care of.

zaria

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

I'm with others here. DPS checks are unnecessary and naïve, at best. What good does one's DPS do - single target or AoE - if one can't stay alive long enough during the encounter to actually do any damage?

I can maybe see the value in a DPS check if you're in a hardcore trial group & you're beating your head off the same boss repeatedly, but other than that, epeen measurements aren't really important.

True but most who can do good dps are also so skilled they can stay alive.
Most of all its an training tool, how to get an working rotation, who skills to use, combat metric is very nice as it show uptime and how much damage each skill did also if you skipped some.

It can also be demoralizing. remember back before morrowind, CP 250 I think, I knew templars had an simple rotation so I used her over sorcerer who was higher but more complex, found that an macro with an recommended rotation gave me 16K, spamming jabs with Entropy and ele drain gave 15 and way better survival. Spaming dark flare with entropy and drain gave 18 , had to heal an dungeon because of fake healer, templar don't have any dps sets.
But she is afraid for getting banned if SPC proc then questing

Still sucks but not so bad.

Vajrak

We had this before the dummy...Bloodspawn testing in Spindleclutch 2.

So....not seeing the issue here.

Jimmy

Why would you want to overly complicate something simple? It's fine as is. It's a baseline, a guideline... it's not intended to be an exact true to form representation. But what it does is give everyone the same variables and an even playing field. Just leave it alone.

Valrien

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Agree about the Dummy test. I have never done well on the Test Dummy so just don't give a hoot about DPS parses on it.

Does that mean I can't get good DPS? Oh no. It doesn't. I have soloed every dungeon in game (non DLC) in Normal that has the mechanics for solo player with no death on my Stamina and Magicka characters. (Oh, I did die like 5 times soloing COA2 in Normal) I have soloed several dungeons in Vet as well but with a few deaths here and there. Running Combat Metrics I see what my DPS average is on mob fights and boss fights and I usually get 24K to 40K DPS averages on those boss fights that have no mobs such as the flying squid boss (LOL) in Dark Shade Caverns I. So I don't give a hoot about the Test Dummy parses. They don't fight back, there is no situational awareness, there is nothing to fear about your character dying.

Soloing normal dungeons mean nothing. Vet is slightly more impressive. If you can't pull good DPS on something that doesn't even fight back then you can't get good DPS period (for example your DPS more likely than not floats closer to 24k than 40k)

Valrien

zaria wrote: »

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

I'm with others here. DPS checks are unnecessary and naïve, at best. What good does one's DPS do - single target or AoE - if one can't stay alive long enough during the encounter to actually do any damage?

I can maybe see the value in a DPS check if you're in a hardcore trial group & you're beating your head off the same boss repeatedly, but other than that, epeen measurements aren't really important.

True but most who can do good dps are also so skilled they can stay alive.
Most of all its an training tool, how to get an working rotation, who skills to use, combat metric is very nice as it show uptime and how much damage each skill did also if you skipped some.

It can also be demoralizing. remember back before morrowind, CP 250 I think, I knew templars had an simple rotation so I used her over sorcerer who was higher but more complex, found that an macro with an recommended rotation gave me 16K, spamming jabs with Entropy and ele drain gave 15 and way better survival. Spaming dark flare with entropy and drain gave 18 , had to heal an dungeon because of fake healer, templar don't have any dps sets.
But she is afraid for getting banned if SPC proc then questing

Still sucks but not so bad.

Banned if SPC procs...?

Lol...

RusevCrush

Dummy scores serve as a filter. We all complain about the guy spamming light bow attacks in our pug groups. A reasonable dummy requirement prevents this person from wasting everyone else's time in more difficult content we're trying to coordinate.
The problem is the elitists who say ewe you're only pulling 43k.....you should be at 53k. When we all know 43k is perfectly acceptable. The test is fine. We're causing these problems on our own.

FakeFox

You should not be required to shield or heal in realistic fights unless your tank or healer messes up, so why should you in a DPS Test? Honestly, the tests we currently have are doing what they are supposed to and give representative results and a good training situation.

zaria

Vajrak wrote: »

We had this before the dummy...Bloodspawn testing in Spindleclutch 2.

So....not seeing the issue here.

Remember testing on the crocodile in wayrest 1.

Valrien wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

I'm with others here. DPS checks are unnecessary and naïve, at best. What good does one's DPS do - single target or AoE - if one can't stay alive long enough during the encounter to actually do any damage?

I can maybe see the value in a DPS check if you're in a hardcore trial group & you're beating your head off the same boss repeatedly, but other than that, epeen measurements aren't really important.

True but most who can do good dps are also so skilled they can stay alive.
Most of all its an training tool, how to get an working rotation, who skills to use, combat metric is very nice as it show uptime and how much damage each skill did also if you skipped some.

It can also be demoralizing. remember back before morrowind, CP 250 I think, I knew templars had an simple rotation so I used her over sorcerer who was higher but more complex, found that an macro with an recommended rotation gave me 16K, spamming jabs with Entropy and ele drain gave 15 and way better survival. Spaming dark flare with entropy and drain gave 18 , had to heal an dungeon because of fake healer, templar don't have any dps sets.
But she is afraid for getting banned if SPC proc then questing

Still sucks but not so bad.

Banned if SPC procs...?

Lol...

It was an post about it, SPC proc on self heal as in jab or sorc surge was an exploit.
No this one can not make that up, need more Skooma while getting cosy with Sheogorath.

Valrien

zaria wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

We had this before the dummy...Bloodspawn testing in Spindleclutch 2.

So....not seeing the issue here.

Remember testing on the crocodile in wayrest 1.

Valrien wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

BleedMe_AnOcean wrote: »

I'm with others here. DPS checks are unnecessary and naïve, at best. What good does one's DPS do - single target or AoE - if one can't stay alive long enough during the encounter to actually do any damage?

I can maybe see the value in a DPS check if you're in a hardcore trial group & you're beating your head off the same boss repeatedly, but other than that, epeen measurements aren't really important.

True but most who can do good dps are also so skilled they can stay alive.
Most of all its an training tool, how to get an working rotation, who skills to use, combat metric is very nice as it show uptime and how much damage each skill did also if you skipped some.

It can also be demoralizing. remember back before morrowind, CP 250 I think, I knew templars had an simple rotation so I used her over sorcerer who was higher but more complex, found that an macro with an recommended rotation gave me 16K, spamming jabs with Entropy and ele drain gave 15 and way better survival. Spaming dark flare with entropy and drain gave 18 , had to heal an dungeon because of fake healer, templar don't have any dps sets.
But she is afraid for getting banned if SPC proc then questing

Still sucks but not so bad.

Banned if SPC procs...?

Lol...

It was an post about it, SPC proc on self heal as in jab or sorc surge was an exploit.
No this one can not make that up, need more Skooma while getting cosy with Sheogorath.

I saw the post about it, I just thought it wasn't serious because I didn't think anyone could actually think that that would be considered an exploit.