Big Changes Need to Happen

Haashhtaag

It's becoming ever increasingly and overbearingly obviously that ZOS needs to halt pushing out content for a good 2-3 patches and focus on their core game mechanics, servers, skills, and etc. There are far too many imbalance issues in this game mixed with very very poor server performances that has not been addressed in years. This game is becoming almost unplayable during prime times.

Nemeliom

Yes, inside cyrodiil during prime time this game is really bad.
Otherwise it works perfectly fine.

The problem is that I only enjoy pvp, so it's kind of a huge issue for me.

Haashhtaag

Nemeliom wrote: »

Yes, inside cyrodiil during prime time this game is really bad.
Otherwise it works perfectly fine.

The problem is that I only enjoy pvp, so it's kind of a huge issue for me.

Issues aren't just happening in PvP they're also in PvE. It's becoming quite the problem.

Gythral

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

DanteYoda

Totally Agree.

Haashhtaag

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

I'm not talking about crown store items and items sold withing crown stores(outside of DLC's). I am talking out the roll outs of DLC like Murkmire, Thieves Guild, and etc. Those types of DLC need to go on a hiatus for 2-3 cycles 6-9 months. The patches they need to push out are game fixing patches. They need do this because everytime they roll out patches it just adds more broken items, bugs, and etc on top of what already isn't being fixed. That is the main reason we are having a lot of these server issues imo because the coding has gotten to the point where it looks like a rat's nest.

It would be a short term monetary loss but long term it would help the game thrive and provide better performance and balance which is so desperately needed.

Salvas_Aren

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

The suit will listen to people cancelling ESO+.

However, the herd will stick to the baggins and game on like it never happened, so we are all screwed.

DaveMoeDee

Content is already pushed out infrequently, so no. People claiming this would only be a short term loss assume too much. They wrongly assume that doing what the OP suggests would actually fix the issues. It easily might not.

So lose subs from players like me who have no new content to keep me around when the game is seems to be focused on establishing itself as the premier story-based MMO? Seems a bad idea.

And balance should never be a reason to halt content. It is a white whale.

Haashhtaag

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Content is already pushed out infrequently, so no. People claiming this would only be a short term loss assume too much. They wrongly assume that doing what the OP suggests would actually fix the issues. It easily might not.

So lose subs from players like me who have no new content to keep me around when the game is seems to be focused on establishing itself as the premier story-based MMO? Seems a bad idea.

And balance should never be a reason to halt content. It is a white whale.

It would suggest they actually care about the core of their game but keep banging that chicken of DLC is so fun. Not when the game is so unstable it causes issues across all game modes.

TheShadowScout

Haashhtaag wrote: »

It's becoming ever increasingly and overbearingly obviously that ZOS needs to halt pushing out content for a good 2-3 patches and focus on their core game mechanics, servers, skills, and etc...

...except that noone will pay good money for an "Just mechanics & skills redoings" DLC, so the -only- way they can make the profit they need to pay for that is... you guessed it... pushing out content people Will spend their cash on. So... unless you have a couple millions $ lying around to invest in their business... pushing content is whatwill carry the rest of the nerfings, rebalancings, fixes and all that, which agreed, they need to spend a bit on too.

Well, I supposed they could also open up new sources of income.
Would you like to see Pay-to-Win come to the crown store then? Like an unlock to wear more then one ring per hand, perhaps? Or crown store ulocks to raise your individual CP cap over the standard? Make a "+100 CP" character that always gets to spend more CP then anyone else? Or how about CP 200 gear, crown store only?

I know I would rather see them finance their stuff through content DLCs then going PtW...

theyancey

LOL, drop new content and ZOS would lose a ton of ESO+ subs, mine included. They are not that stupid.

DaveMoeDee

Haashhtaag wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Content is already pushed out infrequently, so no. People claiming this would only be a short term loss assume too much. They wrongly assume that doing what the OP suggests would actually fix the issues. It easily might not.

So lose subs from players like me who have no new content to keep me around when the game is seems to be focused on establishing itself as the premier story-based MMO? Seems a bad idea.

And balance should never be a reason to halt content. It is a white whale.

It would suggest they actually care about the core of their game but keep banging that chicken of DLC is so fun. Not when the game is so unstable it causes issues across all game modes.

Unless you want the game frozen in amber, regressions will happen.

If they care about the game, they want to avoid becoming insolvent but cutting off revenue.

Haashhtaag

nm....not going to get banned because an inept individual doesn't see how poorly this game performs 5 years in.

MehrunesFlagon

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

It's becoming ever increasingly and overbearingly obviously that ZOS needs to halt pushing out content for a good 2-3 patches and focus on their core game mechanics, servers, skills, and etc...

...except that noone will pay good money for an "Just mechanics & skills redoings" DLC, so the -only- way they can make the profit they need to pay for that is... you guessed it... pushing out content people Will spend their cash on. So... unless you have a couple millions $ lying around to invest in their business... pushing content is whatwill carry the rest of the nerfings, rebalancings, fixes and all that, which agreed, they need to spend a bit on too.

Well, I supposed they could also open up new sources of income.
Would you like to see Pay-to-Win come to the crown store then? Like an unlock to wear more then one ring per hand, perhaps? Or crown store ulocks to raise your individual CP cap over the standard? Make a "+100 CP" character that always gets to spend more CP then anyone else? Or how about CP 200 gear, crown store only?

I know I would rather see them finance their stuff through content DLCs then going PtW...

Let's see the CEO,CFO,Shareholders and Board of Directors could take a huge pay cut.

Haashhtaag

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

It's becoming ever increasingly and overbearingly obviously that ZOS needs to halt pushing out content for a good 2-3 patches and focus on their core game mechanics, servers, skills, and etc...

...except that noone will pay good money for an "Just mechanics & skills redoings" DLC, so the -only- way they can make the profit they need to pay for that is... you guessed it... pushing out content people Will spend their cash on. So... unless you have a couple millions $ lying around to invest in their business... pushing content is whatwill carry the rest of the nerfings, rebalancings, fixes and all that, which agreed, they need to spend a bit on too.

Well, I supposed they could also open up new sources of income.
Would you like to see Pay-to-Win come to the crown store then? Like an unlock to wear more then one ring per hand, perhaps? Or crown store ulocks to raise your individual CP cap over the standard? Make a "+100 CP" character that always gets to spend more CP then anyone else? Or how about CP 200 gear, crown store only?

I know I would rather see them finance their stuff through content DLCs then going PtW...

Blizzard offers level 110 tokens for their game. Just because you get to max CP or near max CP doesn't make it pay 2 win. You have to learn to play the game, get gear, skills, and etc.

yodased

Release dates are not set by the teams working on them.

Millions of dollars are spent marketing the new content, coinciding with the release date.

Unfinished software gets released every day because of this.

Consumers could probably change this, but that would require logical and rational thought when it comes to things they are irrationally passionate about.

No developer is sitting around thinking that its a good idea to release buggy and untested software, but they don't have a choice.

This software will release on the day it was announced, barring massive interruption from some sort of glaring hole in logic, even then it usually a day 1 or day 2 patch that fixes that hole, and why you never simply get to just install a game and play it.

Barking up the wrong tree here, the only people who could "fix" this are the people causing it.

Tandor

One of the problems is that not everyone suffers from any performance issues, and another is that no two people would agree on what is required for balancing. Indeed, not everyone would agree that the classes even need to be balanced in the first place in a story-based PvE-centric MMORPG. These things always depend on playstyle.

Then there is the commercial reality. Even if ZOS suspended work on new content while they invested heavily in "fixing" the game (whatever that means, it'll be different for every player), could they retain the content developers or would they have to be laid off? What then happens in a few months time when they want to rehire them? You can't simply switch employees from one specialism to another, or do you really want a graphics artist working on the server code? Are you in a position to tell ZOS what needs "fixing" and how, as if they knew the exact nature of the problems and how to resolve them the chances are very high that they would already have done it. As it is, the first incremental patch after the recent update has already addressed several of the commonly raised issues. They doubtless need more time to address other issues, but stopping other work in the meantime would serve no purpose at all.

There is, however, a very simple solution for those who feel that the game is currently unplayable - don't play it. Find a better game and play that until such time as you're happy that this one has been "fixed".

Anotherone773

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

You know the people who make the content which is later determined to be broken are the same ones who fix the content right? You dont have a "new stuff guy" and a " duct tape guy" . However they do need a new quality control guy... or just need to create the position. Because the patches for this game are some of the worse ive seen for an mmo.

NupidStoob

Crown crates and limited time stuff from the crown store as well as selling crowns are obviously their big revenue stream at this point. Murkmire wouldn't be for free in the daily login rewards if DLCs were as huge as people were saying.

Player retention and satisfaction are important factors in this business and just because they are harder to measure doesn't mean they don't carry a significant impact. A happy community saves a company tons in advertising costs just by telling friends and family about it.

Just forego one DLC and make a massive performance, bugfix and QoL patch. Not many companies would dare to do that and alone the publicity it would bring would be worth it.

yodased

NupidStoob wrote: »

Crown crates and limited time stuff from the crown store as well as selling crowns are obviously their big revenue stream at this point. Murkmire wouldn't be for free in the daily login rewards if DLCs were as huge as people were saying.

Player retention and satisfaction are important factors in this business and just because they are harder to measure doesn't mean they don't carry a significant impact. A happy community saves a company tons in advertising costs just by telling friends and family about it.

Just forego one DLC and make a massive performance, bugfix and QoL patch. Not many companies would dare to do that and alone the publicity it would bring would be worth it.

This is complete conjecture and your personal opinion. Also, where are these metrics and stats you are claiming to have that the playerbase is unhappy?

The loudest complainers always draw the biggest crowds, if nothing more than drama interest.

Overall, the company continues to be profitable and successful for whatever metric they are using to measure success.

A "happy community" is a subjective and impossible metric to quantify.

Month over month revenue gain, Time on server, new player acquisition, login increase/decrease and subscription cancelling and renewal are all facts that can be shown in trends, happiness of one subset of people is irrelevant to the bottom line.

TheShadowScout

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Let's see the CEO,CFO,Shareholders and Board of Directors could take a huge pay cut.

And whenever have those kind of people done that?



We all know they will pull the plug on the servers and sell off the assets before they would take a pay cut themselves... so lets be thankful that ESO is still making them neat profits, so we all get to play a neat game!

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Blizzard offers level 110 tokens for their game. Just because you get to max CP or near max CP doesn't make it pay 2 win. You have to learn to play the game, get gear, skills, and etc.

Generally "Pay to Win" refers to an purchasable advantage you -cannot- gain through normal gameplay. (So simple shortcuts that gets someone there faster would not be PtW, as anyone who pays for something they could also have fun playing for instead made their choice, and a bad choice that would be IMHO)
...
But of course you still would need to learn how to best utilize such an advantage, and a skilled player without that advantage will generally beat a unskilled player with the advantage. That will always be true as long as the advantage is not too great. Its the same thing about CP... a skilled player with few CP will usually still beat an player with loads of CP who never learned how to properly play the game.
So, personally I would not worry too much even if they someday should add minor PtW mechanics, even though I am happy that so far they have not sold any stuff in the crown store that actually exceeds anything you can get in-game.

Trancestor

FPS, lag and overall responsiveness gets worse with every patch, it really is noticeable, the engine is so crap and outdated that every new piece of content added is another burden on the game. At the moment they are ignoring it but in a few years they will have to do something drastic or ESO will just collapse.

Mayrael

Performacne issues, bugged skills after Murkmire (shadow image, cloak, healing ward), imbalance growth (spin2win used by 90% of stamina builds + bleeds now buffed with enchants - also almost whole Cyrodiil runs stam now, it should tell you something ZOS but what ever) leads me to one decision, another long break from ESO, like I already had in the past, maybe I'll be back maybe not, hard to say, but as for now Cyrodiil is just a source of frustration for me. Take care ladies and gentlemen

Acrolas

There's always going to be a spectrum of performance in an online game. Mileage is going to vary depending on a great many factors. But truly critical issues like last night's login server failure are seldom and only create small percentages of downtime. I barely remember the 15 minutes I lost last night. Only the Allie Brosh picture I posted in response to it.

PVP is never going to have realtime performance and it will take a lot of compromises to cut down the latency. But spending any amount of time in Cyrodiil, people prefer the zerg play and cherry-on-top proc builds so what can be done. If you disable the head and shoulder set bonuses, disable CP, and simplify all the animations down to basic telegraphs, you make Cyrodiil unrecognizable to the people who frequent it. ZOS appears to be trying to make as many incremental PVP changes as possible without blanket penalties to any specific progress you've made in PVE.

But I'm fairly confident that blanket penalties would be enacted before putting DLC on hiatus. DLC is brand expansion and with the introduction of Chapters, content is probably Bethesda's main priority for the game. Content simultaneously brings people together and spreads people out. 100 people smashed together in a button mashing keep battle is not indicative of normal game performance, and as far as I'm concerned, ZOS cannot guarantee optimal individual performance in the top 5% of game traffic spots. That's still 95% of a massive game where there are rarely any critical issues and where I'm free to carve my own space in The Elder Scrolls narrative.

The change that needs to happen is that the more passive-aggressive players in the community need to start realizing that The Elder Scrolls does not revolve around their individual whims and fantasies.

zaria

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

This, say you make an new dungeon or an zone like Murkmire, its quest designers, graphic designers, the ones who balance content like dungeons and arenas.
They are not in any way trained to debug the game for performance issues.
Today you will tank vMoL, this assuming you 1) has no tank builds 2) has never done vMoL.

Now they should hire more people for this but that is another issue and it require income.
Cyrodil has issues now as its packed because of spell strategist but I have not noticed anything outside of bad pug groups.

Tandor

zaria wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

This, say you make an new dungeon or an zone like Murkmire, its quest designers, graphic designers, the ones who balance content like dungeons and arenas.
They are not in any way trained to debug the game for performance issues.
Today you will tank vMoL, this assuming you 1) has no tank builds 2) has never done vMoL.

Now they should hire more people for this but that is another issue and it require income.
Cyrodil has issues now as its packed because of spell strategist but I have not noticed anything outside of bad pug groups.

Which they won't have, because all the players who most want them to focus on these things are cancelling their subscriptions - quite ironic, really!

DaveMoeDee

Haashhtaag wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Content is already pushed out infrequently, so no. People claiming this would only be a short term loss assume too much. They wrongly assume that doing what the OP suggests would actually fix the issues. It easily might not.

So lose subs from players like me who have no new content to keep me around when the game is seems to be focused on establishing itself as the premier story-based MMO? Seems a bad idea.

And balance should never be a reason to halt content. It is a white whale.

It would suggest they actually care about the core of their game but keep banging that chicken of DLC is so fun. Not when the game is so unstable it causes issues across all game modes.

Why do you insist on saying garbage like "actually care about the core of their game"? Of course they care about that. They are balancing a lot of things that need to get done. Stop allowing yourself to be fooled that these are problems easily solved. Welcome to the adult world where you aren't going to get all you want how you want it. It is a world where people wish they could do everything, but can't and learn to prioritize. Just because you disagree with how they prioritize doesn't mean we should start living in fantasy land where they don't care about the game.

Big updates bring instability. That is large software in 2018. Happens to even the most ubiquitous software, like Android, iOS, and Windows. Then minor patches clean that up. Expect that to continue. Cyrodiil performance is another thing. Don't expect that to ever not frustrate. Balance is irrelevant. People will whine, devs will shake it up, players will still whine but devs are too deep in other things pre-release to implement new complaints (or they just feel the game needs to move forward with the changes).

I have no idea why are you bringing in chicken.

kargen27

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

I'm not talking about crown store items and items sold withing crown stores(outside of DLC's). I am talking out the roll outs of DLC like Murkmire, Thieves Guild, and etc. Those types of DLC need to go on a hiatus for 2-3 cycles 6-9 months. The patches they need to push out are game fixing patches. They need do this because everytime they roll out patches it just adds more broken items, bugs, and etc on top of what already isn't being fixed. That is the main reason we are having a lot of these server issues imo because the coding has gotten to the point where it looks like a rat's nest.

It would be a short term monetary loss but long term it would help the game thrive and provide better performance and balance which is so desperately needed.

His point still stands. Different teams work on different aspects of the game. Takes a different skill set to troubleshoot and fix content than creating new content. I'm fairly certain if all it took to fix the bugs was to throw more people at the problem it would have been done.

NupidStoob

yodased wrote: »

This is complete conjecture and your personal opinion. Also, where are these metrics and stats you are claiming to have that the playerbase is unhappy?

The loudest complainers always draw the biggest crowds, if nothing more than drama interest.

Overall, the company continues to be profitable and successful for whatever metric they are using to measure success.

A "happy community" is a subjective and impossible metric to quantify.

Month over month revenue gain, Time on server, new player acquisition, login increase/decrease and subscription cancelling and renewal are all facts that can be shown in trends, happiness of one subset of people is irrelevant to the bottom line.

@yodased I usually don't care enough to actually get annoyed by what someone is saying on the forums, but you putting words like that into my mouth is quite rude. Please reread my comment and point out where exactly I made any statement on whether ESOs playerbase is happy or unhappy?! I made a general statement about playerbases in games that can easily be applied to all types of consumer satisfaction.

"Overall, the company continues to be profitable and successful for whatever metric they are using to measure success." Yes ESO is successful, but why are people like you acting as if that is an excuse for a badly performing game or an excuse to not try to make it even more successful? Sorry I don't get that mentality. You play this game and I assume you also like it otherwise you wouldn't be on the forums. Yet you shoot yourself in the knee by downplaying issues essentially telling ZoS that it's okay how it is right now and everything is perfect. There are bugs around for years that haven't been fixed. Every trial has it's fair share and in PvP you will encounter even more. Performance wise the game always struggled even though there have been improvements it is nowhere near proper. The groupfinder alone which should be one of the maintools for every MMO is a complete mess ever since Morrowind was released.

I am not saying ZoS doesn't care. I am also not saying ZoS isn't trying. What I am saying is that ZoS could do more and I am unhappy with how much they do. ZoS decides how much focus they want on which things which is why I quite like the suggestion of having one quarterly update completely dedicated to performance, bug fixes and QoL fixes.

yodased

uh

"Player retention and satisfaction are important factors in this business and just because they are harder to measure doesn't mean they don't carry a significant impact. A happy community saves a company tons in advertising costs just by telling friends and family about it."

This entire sentence is based on the assumption that people "know" that the playerbase here is unhappy or unsatisfied, which is your opinion.

If you are not trying to insinuate that the opposite of your statement is the playerbase here, what possible reason do you have to mention this?

I didn't put any words in your mouth, you did.

MehrunesFlagon

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

There is a fallacy in this assumption!
Those that create new content, or crown store stuff, are not the right people to fix the issues that are happening, so stopping ongoing content development will have no effect on the issues.
What is needed is an unsung and unpopular (due to cost but no return) team that do the task of fixing background issues

but ask a suit controlling the purse to spend with no obvious instant gain, and what do you expect to result (and this is the result of non-gamers controlling gaming)

You know the people who make the content which is later determined to be broken are the same ones who fix the content right? You dont have a "new stuff guy" and a " duct tape guy" . However they do need a new quality control guy... or just need to create the position. Because the patches for this game are some of the worse ive seen for an mmo.

They probably have one.Just one that that doesn't a great eye for detail.Look around at some of the trees in Summerset.Afew are so far sunk into the ground that you basically only see the top.In Artaeum in one of the rooms there is also a psijic table poking through the bottom of the floor.I would say at least some in the quality control department are doing a terrible job.