Why is perma banning for exploiting ZOS's broken code okay?

Swift_One

I was away from the game for a while, but recently heard the story from a friend who was permanently banned on xbox. He was in a group that got the world's first vet hardmode complete by using that exploit in some trial (vAS I think), where you could glitch the final boss by a door or something. Clearly the achievement, skins, rewards, etc. should be removed from accounts and maybe a temp ban, but permanent? Is it really that big of a deal? I think the toxicity and hate people displayed over this is more detrimental to the game than the exploit. This is horrible coding by zenimax at the end of the day, and permanent bans are way too harsh. Maybe ban the programmers who designed that crap? There are so many other exploits in the game that people use and don't get anywhere near that level of punishment. Basically, it's ridiculous to permanently ban people because of their crap coding.

Sparr0w

Salt.

usmguy1234

Swift_One wrote: »

I was away from the game for a while, but recently heard the story from a friend who was permanently banned on xbox. He was in a group that got the world's first vet hardmode complete by using that exploit in some trial (vAS I think), where you could glitch the final boss by a door or something. Clearly the achievement, skins, rewards, etc. should be removed from accounts and maybe a temp ban, but permanent? Is it really that big of a deal? I think the toxicity and hate people displayed over this is more detrimental to the game than the exploit. This is horrible coding by zenimax at the end of the day, and permanent bans are way too harsh. Maybe ban the programmers who designed that crap? There are so many other exploits in the game that people use and don't get anywhere near that level of punishment. Basically, it's ridiculous to permanently ban people because of their crap coding.

On the flip side you have people exploiting in pvp to steal temple scrolls behind locked gates and nothing ever gets done. Person has been doing it so long he's selling his services.

Swift_One

Sparr0w wrote: »

Salt.

Yeah, it didn't even affect me and I'm salty about it. I just don't get it, seems so dumb. I think they are just embarrassed by their coding.

themaddaedra

The most simple explanation is it's okay because everyone agrees ToS before playing this game.

I won't make any comments on either if it's good or bad, but it's completely legit.

qbit

They can sue and have ZOS send a lawyer to court and really test how watertight the terms of service click-through agreements are (excessively long and unreasonable/broad click-through agreements are pretty useless in most courts).

Would be far cheaper for ZOS to “settle” by reactivating the account and giving them 10000 crowns compensation. And then a gag order.

I think a cease and desist filing/letter from a local law firm would be enough that it would cost ZOS more to respond to it than it would be worth to just reactivate the account and be done with it. Cost you maybe $200. 🤷‍♂️

SodanTok

There is like million opportunities between finding exploit and exploiting it down to 0.1% of boss health where one person has every possibility to stop knowing full well that people are getting banned for this kind of thing when found out.

Yes, I feel like perma ban is not enough in this case of total brain failure.

Swift_One

themaddaedra wrote: »

The most simple explanation is it's okay because everyone agrees ToS before playing this game.

I won't make any comments on either if it's good or bad, but it's completely legit.

I realize it may be technically legit according to the ToS, but that does not make it right.

Swomp23

themaddaedra wrote: »

The most simple explanation is it's okay because everyone agrees ToS before playing this game.

I won't make any comments on either if it's good or bad, but it's completely legit.

I think this pins it down pretty well. Imo, a permanent ban is too much. But my opinion doesn't matter.

It's ZOS game, they wrote a ToS and your friend agreed to it, knowing the possible consequences.

Cpt_Teemo

Crime without punishment

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

@Swift_One

While ZOS aren't going to have open discourse about the decisions they made there is a reason many of the perm banned ended up that way.
Some were selling skin runs to abuse the exploit and make large amounts of gold rather than directly reporting the bug and not exploiting it for personal gain.

Some were setting up bot macro's to basically automate the exploit and make money from skin runs (i spoke to one such person who bragged about it and then sulked when they got perm banned).

At the end of the day if you discover what happens to be a blatant exploit and you decide that instead of reporting it you use it for personal gain (to complete said HM trial for example) then accept the fact that:

1. ZOS will find out about it.
2. ZOS will look at the data of your HM clear (which will blatantly show exploiting)
3. ZOS will most likely then hit you with a ban/other punishment when it's fixed.

This is not rocket science. Don't be an exploiting scrub. If you can't do content then don't exploit through, it's that simple.

themaddaedra

Swift_One wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

The most simple explanation is it's okay because everyone agrees ToS before playing this game.

I won't make any comments on either if it's good or bad, but it's completely legit.

I realize it may be technically legit according to the ToS, but that does not make it right.

Then you(or whoever) simply shouldn't have agreed to that ToS in the first hand.

My first account in this game was also permabanned like one year after release, but i neither wrote to ZoS nor to forums about it because no matter how dumb it is, it was violation of ToS. ToS that i signed.

Liofa

*Exploits broken content for achievement and loot even though it is against ToS*
*Gets banned for it*
*REEEEE*

Swift_One

Liofa wrote: »

*Exploits broken content for achievement and loot even though it is against ToS*
*Gets banned for it*
*REEEEE*

My point is the punishment should fit the crime. Thank you for the constructive post.

Swift_One

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

@Swift_One

While ZOS aren't going to have open discourse about the decisions they made there is a reason many of the perm banned ended up that way.
Some were selling skin runs to abuse the exploit and make large amounts of gold rather than directly reporting the bug and not exploiting it for personal gain.

Some were setting up bot macro's to basically automate the exploit and make money from skin runs (i spoke to one such person who bragged about it and then sulked when they got perm banned).

At the end of the day if you discover what happens to be a blatant exploit and you decide that instead of reporting it you use it for personal gain (to complete said HM trial for example) then accept the fact that:

1. ZOS will find out about it.
2. ZOS will look at the data of your HM clear (which will blatantly show exploiting)
3. ZOS will most likely then hit you with a ban/other punishment when it's fixed.

This is not rocket science. Don't be an exploiting scrub. If you can't do content then don't exploit through, it's that simple.

None of those things happened in this case, except failing to report it. There was so much butt hurt over it that ZOS went way overboard in my opinion. They could have undone everything without permanent bans.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Swift_One wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

*Exploits broken content for achievement and loot even though it is against ToS*
*Gets banned for it*
*REEEEE*

My point is the punishment should fit the crime. Thank you for the constructive post.

Whether it's the most constructive post or not is one thing, but essentially it was a somewhat accurate overview of the thread itself.
Complaining about punishments handed down for directly breaking terms of service to use an exploit for personal gain.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

My whole stance on exploits / bugs is that it's the developer's fault. They coded poorly, they tested poorly, players are going to break your game if they can, welcome to reality.

At most, I think taking away the achievements is fair. Loot is debatable. Banning is the epitome of childish behavior, because it's basically saying "you took advantage of my mistakes, but I have power so now you can't play my game anymore". It's like you're throwing a tantrum because things didn't go your way.

A few years ago, there were some exploits like this in a RIFT raid, and those players got banned as well. It seems like this is becoming a trend, and it's a very distressing one.

susmitds

IMO, for every exploit by every player, PvP and PvE, the blame should be on ZoS, as it exists because of their faulty progamming. We have people abusing system loopholes in everything in life and I personally have no issues with that, as kudos to them for figuring out a way to beat the system.
I consider cheating with external programs bad but abusing a game's own code is perfectly okay to me and have used several of such mechanics in the past in various multiplayer games to varying levels of success, including ESO, especially in PvP. Finding an abusable mechanic IMO and successfully using it, can often be harder than doing it the right way and is downright thrilling.
Animation cancelling is probably the biggest offender, but nobody will ever get banned for it, as they can't fix it.

Swift_One

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Swift_One wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

*Exploits broken content for achievement and loot even though it is against ToS*
*Gets banned for it*
*REEEEE*

My point is the punishment should fit the crime. Thank you for the constructive post.

Whether it's the most constructive post or not is one thing, but essentially it was a somewhat accurate overview of the thread itself.
Complaining about punishments handed down for directly breaking terms of service to use an exploit for personal gain.

So never complain? Got it

Cpt_Teemo

susmitds wrote: »

IMO, for every exploit by every player, PvP and PvE, the blame should be on ZoS, as it exists because of their faulty progamming. We have people abusing system loopholes in everything in life and I personally have no issues with that, as kudos to them for figuring out a way to beat the system.
I consider cheating with external programs bad but abusing a game's own code is perfectly okay to me and have used several of such mechanics in the past in various multiplayer games to varying levels of success, including ESO, especially in PvP. Finding an abusable mechanic IMO and successfully using it, can often be harder than doing it the right way and is downright thrilling.
Animation cancelling is probably the biggest offender, but nobody will ever get banned for it, as they can't fix it.

But exploits can cause massive damage to the game itself as well so its just as dangerous as 3rd parties, look how many people quit SWTOR cause of them letting dupes and in game exploits happen, went from 50 servers down to 3 now

Neoauspex

If you don't agree with the terms of service, don't agree to the terms of service.

BNOC

We assume that others are paying attention to our title/skin because we do ourselves, when in reality, nobody actually cares and there's no reason to.. there's no standout 'Server/World first' titles or rewards so it literally doesn't matter.

There's a huge thread of people QQing about glitchers, talking about it having a detrimental impact on the game and diminishing their achievements - 'Game breaking' is what I've seen it called, haha.

Ironically, those same people complaining about glitchers 'diminishing my achievement' are often the very same people that sell carries through said content (Which doesn't diminish their achievements, apparently, because GP) - I'd argue this is worse as half the time you can leave them afk in the corner, contributing nothing.

The problem isn't that people are abusing content, that means nothing.

I've done content and couldn't care less about it but they should go and ban everyone who's ever boosted AP (Getting free AR, sitting afk flipping keeps), ban everyone who has ever had vMSA completed on an alternate IP or a run that dwarfed their average and so on.

They shouldn't have even been banned, just remove their ***.

Turelus

Swift_One wrote: »

I was away from the game for a while, but recently heard the story from a friend who was permanently banned on xbox. He was in a group that got the world's first vet hardmode complete by using that exploit in some trial (vAS I think), where you could glitch the final boss by a door or something. Clearly the achievement, skins, rewards, etc. should be removed from accounts and maybe a temp ban, but permanent? Is it really that big of a deal? I think the toxicity and hate people displayed over this is more detrimental to the game than the exploit. This is horrible coding by zenimax at the end of the day, and permanent bans are way too harsh. Maybe ban the programmers who designed that crap? There are so many other exploits in the game that people use and don't get anywhere near that level of punishment. Basically, it's ridiculous to permanently ban people because of their crap coding.

Almost all online games have rules against cheating and exploiting. This is because regardless of how people personally feel about cheats and exploits using them does have an effect on others enjoyment of the game.
As such almost all online games have a Terms of Service which will state taking advantage of a bugs within the game to gain advantages which are not intended can lead to actions against your account. Everyone who plays ESO has agreed to these terms of service.

Maybe you should be asking your friends why they feel they need to cheat in video games rather than doing it the correct way like everyone else, and why they feel being punished for cheating isn't fair. Exploiters have no one to blame but themselves for taking advantage of the bugs.

Sandman929

Swift_One wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

The most simple explanation is it's okay because everyone agrees ToS before playing this game.

I won't make any comments on either if it's good or bad, but it's completely legit.

I realize it may be technically legit according to the ToS, but that does not make it right.

This is the war cry of anyone who ever refused to take personal responsibility.

RedRook

It's not about fairness. They gave up any claim to fairness when they intentionally cheated, and agreed to whatever measure ZOS decides to go with in any given case when they clicked "agree" on the TOS.

It's about the next person who finds something like this deciding to report it and leave it alone instead of farm it while the farming is good, because it might not be just a slap on the wrist when they get caught. It's about the NEXT one taking a moment to consider if it's worth the potential permaban.

The next one doesn't have a legit complaint about "fairness" either.

Just don't cheat and none of this is an issue.

Wildberryjack

So he/they did something they KNEW was an exploit to get a world's first and you're whinging that he got banned. M'kay.

Sigtric

Players exploit code and find a lazy way to cheat their way to a victory with skins and achievements earned.

Why should zos put any effort into removing rewards and a slap on the wrist when they can just use the easy way and ban the cheaters? Seems fitting to me.

bearbelly

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Swift_One

Turelus wrote: »

Swift_One wrote: »

I was away from the game for a while, but recently heard the story from a friend who was permanently banned on xbox. He was in a group that got the world's first vet hardmode complete by using that exploit in some trial (vAS I think), where you could glitch the final boss by a door or something. Clearly the achievement, skins, rewards, etc. should be removed from accounts and maybe a temp ban, but permanent? Is it really that big of a deal? I think the toxicity and hate people displayed over this is more detrimental to the game than the exploit. This is horrible coding by zenimax at the end of the day, and permanent bans are way too harsh. Maybe ban the programmers who designed that crap? There are so many other exploits in the game that people use and don't get anywhere near that level of punishment. Basically, it's ridiculous to permanently ban people because of their crap coding.

Almost all online games have rules against cheating and exploiting. This is because regardless of how people personally feel about cheats and exploits using them does have an effect on others enjoyment of the game.
As such almost all online games have a Terms of Service which will state taking advantage of a bugs within the game to gain advantages which are not intended can lead to actions against your account. Everyone who plays ESO has agreed to these terms of service.

Maybe you should be asking your friends why they feel they need to cheat in video games rather than doing it the correct way like everyone else, and why they feel being punished for cheating isn't fair. Exploiters have no one to blame but themselves for taking advantage of the bugs.

The whole point of this post is to address the level if the punishment. You really think a permanent ban fits the "crime"? I can't even call it cheating because it's how they coded it to work.

Reverb

Swift_One wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

*Exploits broken content for achievement and loot even though it is against ToS*
*Gets banned for it*
*REEEEE*

My point is the punishment should fit the crime.

It does in the eyes of the people who make those decisions. And it does in the eyes of many of us on these forums.

Zeni has handed out permabans for vAS exploits multiple times. People keep finding new ways to exploit it despite knowing a few hundred accounts across all platforms have been banned. These people are some combination of dumb, lazy, and spineless (It doesn’t take much to say “nah, I’m not doing this” and drop group).

People complaining about getting banned for this have no leg to stand on.

Svenja

Hint for the OP: It's the same reason why people get disqualified from a Marathon if they just climb over the little barricades at the side of the road and take a shortcut.