Can we PLEASE just separate premade queues already?

Solariken

Yeah, another thread. Because today is another day where I get back-to-back matches against an impenetrable premade - you know, the sort of "top-tier" "small-scale" jerks that stack into a ball while they spam heals/purge and chain-pull enemy PUGs into their Permafrost + Fossilize deathtrap.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler this is nothing short of negligence on the part of ZOS. Are strategies like the above a fair and valid strategy? Yes - against other premades. NOT against a team of PUGs that 9/10 times doesn't even properly fill to 4 players.

Why do you sit back and feed wins to these abusers?

I'll ask again, PLEASE, can we have

1) Solo/duo
3) Premade (requires 4 to queue)

Who cares if the premade queue has low participation? If populations are low they can bust their derpy group and queue solo like the rest of us.

wheem_ESO

Indeed. Getting triple Ulted by stacked up, focus firing tryhards with their permablocking healer is oh-so-fun. Super serious. Especially when my team isn't full and/or has a player that's not even CP 100.

rabidmyers

i agree, anything to get rid of premades is a buff in my eyes

VaranisArano

How long are you willing to wait for a group?

The easiest way to do this separation thing is 3 queues.

1. Solo players willing to play with randoms only
2. Solo players willing to play with anyone
3. Premade groups of 2, 3, and 4

Obviously, the fastest moving queue is going to be "Solo Players willing to play with anyone."

You, in the "I only want to play with randoms" group, will be waiting for 11 other solo players to join up.


Okay, lets design a little more forgiving version. With Solo/Duo as you suggested. Our Queues:

1. Solo or Duos only willing to play with random solos or duos
2. Solos or Duos willing to play with anyone
3. Premades of 3 or 4

Obviously, again, the middle players willing to play with anyone get the faster queue.

You, in the "I wanna only play with randoms or other duos" will again need to wait for at least 10 other random solo/duos. Your queue will be slower, because you wont get groups of 3 or 4, and you might have to wait longer for one of the premade games to fill up with the players willing to play anyone.


Ultimately, lets say you are willing to wait. Will this solve your problem?

Probably not. The really good battlegrounds players are going to turn themselves into nasty 2 man squads, and your Duo queue is going to turn out not that much easier to deal with than the current pre-mades. IDK, maybe you think it'll be easier for randoms to deal with them, but I doubt it.


ZOS can separate you from the premades. But you'll have to wait, especially if you want to avoid pre-made duos playing together. How much as you willing to wait?

WrathOfInnos

I think I’d rather queue quick for a losing match against a premade than have a 30 minute queue with a chance of winning. I only do BGs for the AP though.

Solariken

@VaranisArano no need to overcomplicate it. The number of abuser groups on PC/NA is actually very small. Yet they reap all the benefits of the stupid system we have. Those groups will be forced to break up or wait a super long time for a fair fight.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think I’d rather queue quick for a losing match against a premade than have a 30 minute queue with a chance of winning. I only do BGs for the AP though.

My man there is nothing quick about those losses. It almost always goes full-term. They only win because they can't die. Any time the two PUG teams engage, they swoop in and gobble up or break up the fight (causing any decent players to move).

ChunkyCat

ZoS don’t care.

Aliyavana

One of the good things about fighting premades is that it arguably made me a better player. Though it is annoying fighting premades when you just want the daily reward

idk

The answer is no. The damage to the queue OP's suggestion would have is not acceptable. Besides, BGs are a group activity in an MMORPG. Grouping in such an activity should be encouraged.\


More importantly, Aliyavana has it right. Use it to get better. Improving is always good and that happens best when up against strong challengers. Find a way rather than ask the game to come down to you.

wheem_ESO

idk wrote: »

The answer is no. The damage to the queue OP's suggestion would have is not acceptable. Besides, BGs are a group activity in an MMORPG. Grouping in such an activity should be encouraged.\


More importantly, Aliyavana has it right. Use it to get better. Improving is always good and that happens best when up against strong challengers. Find a way rather than ask the game to come down to you.

In the current system, grouping is discouraged, not encouraged. Why someone wants to easily steamroll over non-full groups of random solo queued players, some of whom may not even be CP 160 yet, is beyond me.

The OP's suggestion of separated queues may actually be something that encourages more grouping rather than less. I'd be willing to look at playing in organized groups fairly often then, since it likely wouldn't be wall-to-wall boredom of non-challenging steamrolls.

Getting better by playing against premades really only works for some builds and some premades. What exactly is a typical Mag DK going to do against a Stamina-based assist train + permablocking healer? His/her DOTs are probably going to get cleansed repeatedly, whip damage is going to get healed as fast as he/she can do it, and they're not going to survive for very long. In what ways do you expect this theoretical Mag DK to improve in such a scenario?

Granted, a good player with decent-to-good random teammates, going against a premade of bad players, may be able to do well and get some good practice in. But all too often, it's just a series of focus fired 1-shots (or near 1-shots) for any class that doesn't have sufficiently good escape mechanics.

The only downside, IMO, to suggestions like that of the OP is that it would negatively impact "casual" premades. Groups of 2-4 players that are just queueing up with their buddies, not worrying too much about class composition, coordination, etc...But in those cases, I'd just say queue up solo and have fun beating up on each other, or change some builds around and try to coordinate more for the premade queue.

Solariken

Yeah @wheem_ESO explained it perfectly. There is nothing about the current system that encourages grouping unless you like clubbing baby seals. I prefer fair fights, preferably without block-spam earthgore healers that turn everything into a 15 minute slugfest.

I love grouping with friends but almost never get grouped with other premades, so better to go solo and just play the hit-and-run game trying to catch a kill on whoever has his pants down.

jcm2606

Whatever they did to MMR with Murkmire, it has just made the premade problem so much worse. This is the worst it has ever been for me, and it is quite literally making me want to just not do BGs. Back-to-back, I'll be matched against premade teams running a healbot, a magden or magDK supplying constant CC, then two random DPS specs. They'll CC you, then just melt you full force, with literally zero you can do.

At this point, just *** scrap MMR. It is a trainwreck of a system that vehemently makes the experience worse for everybody. I would 1000% take complete random queues over this ***.

Until something is done, I'm no longer doing BGs. I'm not a masochist. I don't find even a molecule of pleasure in careening into the meat grinder that is premades.

React

I would love to see these ques separated. It sucks that going in solo with a decent MMR almost guarantees you'll be matched against a premade or two with horrible players on your own team. In addition, once you get a high mmr, you literally can't que in with 3 or 4 people because of the que time. I've made new characters just to be able to play with friends, and even those characters are starting to get longer que times.

Solo que exclusive BG's would be SOO much fun. There would be huge diversity in what you end up fighting against. I imagine the que would be much quicker just as a result of the teams being easier to make, too.

Mihael

Yeah I would t mind fighting premades if I got premise quality players on my team but the nbs that spend the whole bg in stealth are cutting it right now, which is why zos should try solo/group que. I mean even if it is a total failure it can’t get much worse than the current mmr system

jcm2606

If implementing a solo queue isn't an option due to queue times, just get rid of MMR. That fixes the main issue I have with premades, the consistency of being matched against them, while allowing faster queue times due to no match making.

It was a solid effort, Zenimax, but MMR just isn't working, and I don't think it ever will. Even if MMR was implemented perfectly, match making based on MMR will still fail simply due to how few players are doing BGs often. The bottom of the MMR brackets are full of players, however the middle and top brackets are increasingly sparse in players, which is what causes the stupidly long queue times and consistency of premades.

Let's face it. There isn't enough people doing BGs for any sort of intelligent match making to work. Now is the time, Zenimax. @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Get rid of MMR.

NupidStoob

Solo/Duo as one queue and full 4 man as another. Nothing else is really needed. Add some incentives for group play so people are more willing to group up and disable the 4 man queue during offhours. Now add a proper MMR and ranking system and fix the stupid queue bugs as well as add a reconnection feature.

These are all basic features if ZoS ever wants there to be any competition and to actually make BGs a meaningful part of the ESO experience.

I know it's a dream and with ZoS history of only ever doing the bare minimum for a feature I doubt they will ever implement anything like this.

idk

wheem_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer is no. The damage to the queue OP's suggestion would have is not acceptable. Besides, BGs are a group activity in an MMORPG. Grouping in such an activity should be encouraged.\


More importantly, Aliyavana has it right. Use it to get better. Improving is always good and that happens best when up against strong challengers. Find a way rather than ask the game to come down to you.

In the current system, grouping is discouraged, not encouraged. Why someone wants to easily steamroll over non-full groups of random solo queued players, some of whom may not even be CP 160 yet, is beyond me.

Since the logic behind your post was in the first paragraph I only left that in the quote.

The logic is flawed.

Granted, Zos has gaslighted into thinking that the issue is not with their flawed GF design and that we need to think of ways to work around those flaws.
'
But Zos needs to fix the actual issue of partial groups being formed.. It is that simple and just think about how many will return to queueing for BGs if the damned thing actually worked as it should.

Wow, what a concept.

But that is not what OP is actually talking about. OP is just tired of going against stronger, well organized groups. So my original statement is correct.

But yes, Zos needs to cease accepting mediocre work from those that design and code this game and get the GF working properly, as well as other aspects of the game.

wheem_ESO

idk wrote: »

Since the logic behind your post was in the first paragraph I only left that in the quote.

The logic is flawed.

No, it isn't. There are some players, myself included, who aren't interested in being on either end of a steamroll. It's really quite boring to instakill enemy players 1-by-1, while never being in any real danger of anyone on your team dying. It's also quite boring to be on a team of randoms where you can do many hundreds of thousands of damage and get 0 kill blows, 2 assists, and insta-die whenever you become the focus target of the tryhards.

idk wrote: »

But that is not what OP is actually talking about. OP is just tired of going against stronger, well organized groups. So my original statement is correct.

The OP said he agreed with me.

Having not-full teams is a problem. Having people with < 160 CP on your team is a problem (especially if it's more than 1 player, although that hasn't happened to me in a while). Having one or both of those things happen when you're against at least 1 full premade is just an extra insult. Chances are good that even with 4 random players that have >= 160 CP, you'd still lose if the premade isn't really casual about their grouping.

VaranisArano

wheem_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Since the logic behind your post was in the first paragraph I only left that in the quote.

The logic is flawed.

No, it isn't. There are some players, myself included, who aren't interested in being on either end of a steamroll. It's really quite boring to instakill enemy players 1-by-1, while never being in any real danger of anyone on your team dying. It's also quite boring to be on a team of randoms where you can do many hundreds of thousands of damage and get 0 kill blows, 2 assists, and insta-die whenever you become the focus target of the tryhards.

idk wrote: »

But that is not what OP is actually talking about. OP is just tired of going against stronger, well organized groups. So my original statement is correct.

The OP said he agreed with me.

Having not-full teams is a problem. Having people with < 160 CP on your team is a problem (especially if it's more than 1 player, although that hasn't happened to me in a while). Having one or both of those things happen when you're against at least 1 full premade is just an extra insult. Chances are good that even with 4 random players that have >= 160 CP, you'd still lose if the premade isn't really casual about their grouping.

Unless you are using >=160 CP as a shorthand for inexperience, I'm struggling to see what CP has anything to do with being good or bad in a No CP Battlegrounds environment.

Because I'll be honest, I've got 900+ CP and I'm still learning how to be effective in Battlegrounds despite playing regularly in CP Cyrodiil. So I'm sure its no fun to get "inexperienced" BG players on your team no matter what our CP, but if you want to avoid us entirely, maybe make a pre-made of your own?

Solariken

VaranisArano wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Since the logic behind your post was in the first paragraph I only left that in the quote.

The logic is flawed.

No, it isn't. There are some players, myself included, who aren't interested in being on either end of a steamroll. It's really quite boring to instakill enemy players 1-by-1, while never being in any real danger of anyone on your team dying. It's also quite boring to be on a team of randoms where you can do many hundreds of thousands of damage and get 0 kill blows, 2 assists, and insta-die whenever you become the focus target of the tryhards.

idk wrote: »

But that is not what OP is actually talking about. OP is just tired of going against stronger, well organized groups. So my original statement is correct.

The OP said he agreed with me.

Having not-full teams is a problem. Having people with < 160 CP on your team is a problem (especially if it's more than 1 player, although that hasn't happened to me in a while). Having one or both of those things happen when you're against at least 1 full premade is just an extra insult. Chances are good that even with 4 random players that have >= 160 CP, you'd still lose if the premade isn't really casual about their grouping.

Unless you are using >=160 CP as a shorthand for inexperience, I'm struggling to see what CP has anything to do with being good or bad in a No CP Battlegrounds environment.

Because I'll be honest, I've got 900+ CP and I'm still learning how to be effective in Battlegrounds despite playing regularly in CP Cyrodiil. So I'm sure its no fun to get "inexperienced" BG players on your team no matter what our CP, but if you want to avoid us entirely, maybe make a pre-made of your own?

You know that sub 160 players can't use cp160 gear right?

IcyDeadPeople

Premade vs randoms is boring for the randoms and boring for the premade groups as well. Should not be matched together.

wheem_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Unless you are using >=160 CP as a shorthand for inexperience, I'm struggling to see what CP has anything to do with being good or bad in a No CP Battlegrounds environment.

Because I'll be honest, I've got 900+ CP and I'm still learning how to be effective in Battlegrounds despite playing regularly in CP Cyrodiil. So I'm sure its no fun to get "inexperienced" BG players on your team no matter what our CP, but if you want to avoid us entirely, maybe make a pre-made of your own?

I used 160 as the number because that's when you're able to equip the top level gear. Many people with < 160 CP are wearing stuff that's below their level (which is understandable, since replacing 100% of your gear every 10 CP isn't all that realistic for most players), and this will result in even further reduced stats. It's also quite possible that they're not even wearing full sets, much less optimal ones.

If someone is somewhat new'ish to the game, and just using what gear they acquire while leveling up, they're going to be at a huge disadvantage in PvP. When you combine that with a lack of experience, and facing off against a full 4 man that's focus firing with dedicated heals and/or Guard, that player (and everyone else) is likely going to have a bad experience.

There have been a number of times that I've had new players on my team, and some will apologize up front before the match starts, but I've never been rude to any of them. Being inexperienced, undergeared, etc...and joining the solo queue is perfectly fine. Those people aren't really the ones that bother me, it's the premades that act like they're trying out for an e-sports league or some such; having the < 160 CP players on my team in those games just reduces the already low chance of pulling out some kills.

Kikke

I bet you half the teams you think are premades are not. Just random people that can write one liners in chat and usually with a pug healer. But since they move as a grp they can look like premades, but they are still only pugs.

wheem_ESO

kikkehs wrote: »

I bet you half the teams you think are premades are not. Just random people that can write one liners in chat and usually with a pug healer. But since they move as a grp they can look like premades, but they are still only pugs.

There are plenty of times that I know for an absolute fact that some teams are premades. Other times I suspect it, and end up seeing the same people together over and over again, match after match. Don't assume that everyone who complains about premades is thinking something along the lines of, "oh no I died, and one of their players has over 200k healing, must be a premade."

Kikke

wheem_ESO wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

I bet you half the teams you think are premades are not. Just random people that can write one liners in chat and usually with a pug healer. But since they move as a grp they can look like premades, but they are still only pugs.

There are plenty of times that I know for an absolute fact that some teams are premades. Other times I suspect it, and end up seeing the same people together over and over again, match after match. Don't assume that everyone who complains about premades is thinking something along the lines of, "oh no I died, and one of their players has over 200k healing, must be a premade."

Ait. If you say so

hanslanda

Please somebody at zenimax do something about this, its becoming a joke now and not a very good one, theses premades are out of hand now, it's almost 80% of the matches i get them and half the time its just three of us and one those will be below cp160.Theses uber nerds are just winning matches 510/45/45

VaranisArano

Solariken wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Since the logic behind your post was in the first paragraph I only left that in the quote.

The logic is flawed.

No, it isn't. There are some players, myself included, who aren't interested in being on either end of a steamroll. It's really quite boring to instakill enemy players 1-by-1, while never being in any real danger of anyone on your team dying. It's also quite boring to be on a team of randoms where you can do many hundreds of thousands of damage and get 0 kill blows, 2 assists, and insta-die whenever you become the focus target of the tryhards.

idk wrote: »

But that is not what OP is actually talking about. OP is just tired of going against stronger, well organized groups. So my original statement is correct.

The OP said he agreed with me.

Having not-full teams is a problem. Having people with < 160 CP on your team is a problem (especially if it's more than 1 player, although that hasn't happened to me in a while). Having one or both of those things happen when you're against at least 1 full premade is just an extra insult. Chances are good that even with 4 random players that have >= 160 CP, you'd still lose if the premade isn't really casual about their grouping.

Unless you are using >=160 CP as a shorthand for inexperience, I'm struggling to see what CP has anything to do with being good or bad in a No CP Battlegrounds environment.

Because I'll be honest, I've got 900+ CP and I'm still learning how to be effective in Battlegrounds despite playing regularly in CP Cyrodiil. So I'm sure its no fun to get "inexperienced" BG players on your team no matter what our CP, but if you want to avoid us entirely, maybe make a pre-made of your own?

You know that sub 160 players can't use cp160 gear right?

wheem_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Unless you are using >=160 CP as a shorthand for inexperience, I'm struggling to see what CP has anything to do with being good or bad in a No CP Battlegrounds environment.

Because I'll be honest, I've got 900+ CP and I'm still learning how to be effective in Battlegrounds despite playing regularly in CP Cyrodiil. So I'm sure its no fun to get "inexperienced" BG players on your team no matter what our CP, but if you want to avoid us entirely, maybe make a pre-made of your own?

I used 160 as the number because that's when you're able to equip the top level gear. Many people with < 160 CP are wearing stuff that's below their level (which is understandable, since replacing 100% of your gear every 10 CP isn't all that realistic for most players), and this will result in even further reduced stats. It's also quite possible that they're not even wearing full sets, much less optimal ones.

If someone is somewhat new'ish to the game, and just using what gear they acquire while leveling up, they're going to be at a huge disadvantage in PvP. When you combine that with a lack of experience, and facing off against a full 4 man that's focus firing with dedicated heals and/or Guard, that player (and everyone else) is likely going to have a bad experience.

There have been a number of times that I've had new players on my team, and some will apologize up front before the match starts, but I've never been rude to any of them. Being inexperienced, undergeared, etc...and joining the solo queue is perfectly fine. Those people aren't really the ones that bother me, it's the premades that act like they're trying out for an e-sports league or some such; having the < 160 CP players on my team in those games just reduces the already low chance of pulling out some kills.

Fair enough! Gear levels totally slipped my mind.

Solariken

Another night of the same garbage. Yo @ZOS_BrianWheeler you want people to play this game right?

Oberstein

add option for battleground to solo battle, party battle problem solved.

NupidStoob

Gotta bump this until ZoS graces us with a reply. I did 3 BGs today, one in the morning that was 3-3-4, one in the afternoon with one premade team just completely dominating and same thing again in the evening.

I had some great days with back to back games where every team was almost equally skilled and playing together, but clearly lacking the coordination of a proper team and voicechat.

At this point I recognize most of these teams and just end up leaving the game when it happens and play on another char since I know that at least one full group is already in a BG, but tbh it's just getting tiring.

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino

Looking at all the posts in this forum, none of them have a single post from ZOS. They don't read this forum, so it's just us venting.