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Abilities with casting time.

twofaced
twofaced
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So I was doing some additional research for finishing my dummy bot and found out that tooltip casting time doesn't represent the real situation.

For example: Crystal fragments should have 1 sec cast time, which should be perfect for LA weaving since GCD is also 1 sec. But in reality 1 sec is an initiate animation following with skill animation itself (proc stage), which has it's own duration (pretty long btw). Thankfully you can cancelblock second stage but still there must be 100ms delay for successfully fire off a Crystal.

Dark Deal also has wrong cast time tooltip. It doesn't fire off after 1,2 sec, there must be an additional 100ms. With this adjunct overall weaving will be like 50ms LA + 1300 skill cast + 50ms block cancel...

That's why so many people complain about clunkiness of cast time abilities. You have to wait tooltip time to just start casting skill which will take even more time if you don't cancel the animation. Different situation is going with Flurry and Jabs. You deal damage while casting timer is running. That's why everybody loves it. Perfect for LA rotation and not clunky. Balanced? No *** way!

IMO having such system (ridiculous constant GCD, different "cast time" type, animation cancel) there is no way to use any adequate alternative for LA+skill rotation in foreseeable future. Which means poor endgame experience and no replayability with different classes. It's so difficult to create custom AnimNotifiers for each skill, I understand, but...Well I guess, no fun allowed.

BONUS: I wish one day HA weaving will become a thing again. Here is timings for lightning staff: 2.2s channeling (basically 3*LA and HA hit restoring magicka) + 600 ms skill animation + blockcancel (50ms).

[edited title]
Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on April 18, 2019 2:47PM
  • Checkmath
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    You mean, that is why people hate using jabs...?
    It is clunky, because its duration is longer than 1 GCD, and therefore weaving even makes it feel clunkier.

    Every skill has an animation, which has a certain duration. also skills without channels will take time, if you do not cancel them. Channeled abilities are just the same plus the cast time before the skill fires.

    The clunkiness from cast time abilities does not come from the additional time the animation consumes, rather from the exceeding of the GCD. Normal skills end their animation within 1 GCD, so you have plenty of time to use a light attack before you can cast again a skill. This makes up for a fluid combat feeling. Already a cast time of 1 second shortly delays your next attack, because the weaving between skills also costs you a little bit of time. So with an instant cast ability, you could have casted 2 abilities and a light attack while others just finished their 1 sec cast time. This makes cast times feeling clunky. An exception is flurry, because its cast time is so short, that weaving does not cost you additional time.

    I think on some skills cast times are very well needed, because they are strong and make their use situational. An example is dark deal, which in PvP is normally casted, when you get the time to do so via LOSing or taking some distance. Without the channel, this skill would be far too strong and could bee used without any drawbacks in any situations.

    But for attacks I also wish for shorter cast times at least for spammables like jabs, so that rotations including them do not feel clunky. Meanwhile I see, why some skills like crystal shard or dark flare have a longer cast time. They are not meant to be spammed and do (at least were supposed to do) great damage. They should be used like openers and therefore situational.

  • twofaced
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    You mean, that is why people hate using jabs...?
    It is clunky, because its duration is longer than 1 GCD, and therefore weaving even makes it feel clunkier.
    What? Jabs is perfect for LA weaving. Read my post again.
    Channeled abilities are just the same plus the cast time before the skill fires.
    Channeled or cast time?.

    The clunkiness from cast time abilities does not come from the additional time the animation consumes, rather from the exceeding of the GCD.
    Kinda. But there are skills with 1 sec cast time, should be perfect to weaving. Did you even read my post, dude?
    Normal skills end their animation within 1 GCD, so you have plenty of time to use a light attack before you can cast again a skill.
    Incorrect. You have to leave some time for skill animation (grounded need it for sure).
    So with an instant cast ability, you could have casted 2 abilities and a light attack while others just finished their 1 sec cast time.
    [snip] You can never cast two abilities faster than 1 sec, with LA in between or not. And 1s casting time just add 100ms, you'll unlikely notice it.
    I think on some skills cast times are very well needed, because they are strong and make their use situational. An example is dark deal, which in PvP is normally casted, when you get the time to do so via LOSing or taking some distance. Without the channel, this skill would be far too strong and could bee used without any drawbacks in any situations.
    I'm not against casting time at all, just make sure you inform people truthfully. Btw there is no much difference between 1 sec and 1,4 sec in PvP.

    From all your statements I foresee that your main is stamplar. Nerf sorcs, buff jabs! :D

    [edited for circumventing profanity filter]
    Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on April 18, 2019 2:48PM
  • jypcy
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    OP, the cast time for skills such as frags, dark deal, blood altar, etc. is the time necessary to elapse before the skill takes full effect, the proc stage as you refer to it. For skills without this cast time you can fit both the proc stage and a LA in a single GCD. For skills with a cast time of 1 second or more, 1 second, i.e., one GCD, has to pass before the proc stage. You’re right in suggesting that you can LA weave with such skills, but the weave takes more than a single GCD because you spent one of those in the cast stage of the ability prior to its proc stage. So take LA weaving with frags, which has a cast time that takes a full GCD, for example:

    1 GCD: cast stage
    2 GCD: proc stage + LA + begin next cast stage
    3 GCD: finish cast stage + proc stage + LA + begin next cast stage
    etc.

    And compare this to LA weaving with force pulse, which doesn’t have a cast time:

    1 GCD: proc stage + LA
    2 GCD: proc stage + LA
    3 GCD: proc stage + LA
    4 GCD: proc stage + LA

    (The technical details might be a bit more convoluted, such as force pulse having a cast stage as well, but even if it does the cast stage and proc stage fit into a single GCD with time to spare for a LA.)

    Jabs and flurry are skills that have effects occur during their cast stage, but by design have the big damage tick occur during their proc stage so that if you do cancel them early you won’t get the full effect. Despite the earlier effects, though, jabs, which iirc has a cast time of 1.1 seconds, would fall into the frags GCD paradigm, and flurry, which iirc has a cast time of .6 seconds, would fall into the force pulse GCD paradigm.

    Hope this helps!

    [Edited based on testing.]
    Edited by jypcy on November 1, 2018 2:04PM
  • Minno
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    jypcy wrote: »
    OP, the cast time for skills such as frags, dark deal, blood altar, etc. is the time necessary to elapse before the skill takes full effect, the proc stage as you refer to it. For skills without this cast time you can fit both the proc stage and a LA in a single GCD. For skills with a cast time of 1 second or more, 1 second, i.e., one GCD, has to pass before the proc stage. You’re right in suggesting that you can LA weave with such skills, but the weave takes two GCDs instead of one because you spent one of those in the cast stage of the ability prior to its proc stage. So take LA weaving with frags, which has a cast time that takes a full GCD, for example:

    1 GCD: cast stage
    2 GCD: proc stage + LA
    3 GCD: cast stage
    4 GCD: proc stage + LA
    etc.

    And compare this to LA weaving with force pulse, which doesn’t have a cast time:

    1 GCD: proc stage + LA
    2 GCD: proc stage + LA
    3 GCD: proc stage + LA
    4 GCD: proc stage + LA

    (The technical details might be a bit more convoluted, such as force pulse having a cast stage as well, but even if it does the cast stage and proc stage fit into a single GCD with time to spare for a LA.)

    Jabs and flurry are skills that have effects occur during their cast stage, but by design have the big damage tick occur during their proc stage so that if you do cancel them early you won’t get the full effect. Despite the earlier effects, though, jabs, which iirc has a cast time of 1.1 seconds, would fall into the frags GCD paradigm, and flurry, which iirc has a cast time of .6 seconds, would fall into the force pulse GCD paradigm.

    Hope this helps!

    very insightful!
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • twofaced
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    jypcy wrote: »
    Hope this helps!

    I'm glad you spent so much time trying to explain mechanics for me. But, man, for real. You don't tell a dude who has tested every possible rotation/weaving combination how combat works. I successfully tested all gathered data today on a dummy.

    There is no actually such thing as GCD, at least as common folks use it's meaning, there is a minimal delay between two consequential events of a type and some internal timers (for example you can't LA in less than 620ms after bar swap). You just made up a wrong theory and there is even one dude fell into your delusion :D

    Maybe you misread my message, but with proc stage I just meant an animation of launching a crystal, which can be started independently if your frag proc. So to be fully clear you can weave frag like:
    click LA -> delay 50 ms -> Click Frag skill -> delay 1,1s (and not 1s as stated in tooltip!) -> blockcancel for 50 ms ->
    click LA -> delay 50 ms -> Click Frag skill (let it be proc at this time) -> delay 100ms -> do something for the rest of 850ms to be able to weave again
  • yodased
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    being a *** isn't going to make anyone respect or listen to you.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • jypcy
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    So if I’m understanding correctly, you’re suggesting that
    1. At time x: click LA and it fires
    2. At time x+50ms: click frag, casttime begins
    3. At time x+1150ms: frag fires, click block
    4. At time x+1200ms: click LA and it fires
    5. At time x+1250ms: click procc’d frag
    6. At time x+1350ms: frag fires
    7. At time x+2200ms: able to LA again (start over)
    And because events 3 and 6 would occur within the same 1000 ms time frame, each which is tied to a skill that allegedly can only occur once per 1000 ms GCD, the GCD as @Checkmath and I have described it would be inaccurate.

    Might we see your data that reflects this model? And what would you do in the intervening 850 ms before you can weave again?
    Edited by jypcy on October 31, 2018 5:22PM
  • twofaced
    twofaced
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    yodased wrote: »
    being a *** isn't going to make anyone respect or listen to you.

    I'd like to see everyone focused on topic. Without misleading information.

    @jypcy
    I described two different cases with frag (normal and procc'd). Basic model - start new weave combo as soon as possible but after all minimum timers are done. Usually I wait 900ms after pressing skill and block for 50ms, it allows me to start new weaving every 1s no matter how long skill animation is (900ms is enough even for registering LL).
  • Minno
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    twofaced wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    being a *** isn't going to make anyone respect or listen to you.

    I'd like to see everyone focused on topic. Without misleading information.

    @jypcy
    I described two different cases with frag (normal and procc'd). Basic model - start new weave combo as soon as possible but after all minimum timers are done. Usually I wait 900ms after pressing skill and block for 50ms, it allows me to start new weaving every 1s no matter how long skill animation is (900ms is enough even for registering LL).

    You will need to provide data. A class rep and another posted confirmed differently.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • jypcy
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    Ok, so cut off my scenario above at event 3 and add a subsequent event 4 of At time x+2000ms: able to LA again.

    And then a separate scenario would be using the previous events 4-7 but relabeling them as 1-4 and reducing their added ms values by 1200.

    And the example you added in your most recent post would be:
    1. At time x: click LA and it fires
    2. At time x+50ms: click [skill] and animation begins
    3. At time x+50ms+Yms (where Y is some value less than 900): [skill] fires, click block
    4. At time x+1000ms: able to LA again

    So are you suggesting that “able to LA again” is actually “choose to LA again” for convenience, although in actuality you could LA or cast another skill sooner than that? As @Minno stated, showing data would likely help clear this up.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    It's definitely an issue. I think we should not confuse cast times (dark deal, summoning pets, Channeled acceleration) with channeled abilities (Jabs, radiant, etc.). The later function much better in actual combat. I have never thought to myself, boy, jabs is super clunky. It weaves well, it can be block/swap cancelled as the need arises, etc. Cast times basically lock your player into an animation. Sure you can weave in front of it, but you cant block or swap cancel to react dynamically. Once you hit the button, you are committed.

    In higher ping scenarios, the problem gets worse. The number of times I have swapped to cast dark deal and then struggled to swap back to my front bar (often accidentally cast DD again) is more than I can count. This is why cast times feel so darn clunky, and why IMO, they should be removed across the board for this game. It would certainly require re-balancing of some of the skills, but they need to go. I also love that the two biggest offenders (pets and dark deal) are sorc skills. The class is archaic in the current meta. Virtually no major minor buffs, skills that need to be double barred, and Cast times all over the place.
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    twofaced wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    You mean, that is why people hate using jabs...?
    It is clunky, because its duration is longer than 1 GCD, and therefore weaving even makes it feel clunkier.
    What? Jabs is perfect for LA weaving. Read my post again.
    Channeled abilities are just the same plus the cast time before the skill fires.
    Channeled or cast time?.

    The clunkiness from cast time abilities does not come from the additional time the animation consumes, rather from the exceeding of the GCD.
    Kinda. But there are skills with 1 sec cast time, should be perfect to weaving. Did you even read my post, dude?
    Normal skills end their animation within 1 GCD, so you have plenty of time to use a light attack before you can cast again a skill.
    Incorrect. You have to leave some time for skill animation (grounded need it for sure).
    So with an instant cast ability, you could have casted 2 abilities and a light attack while others just finished their 1 sec cast time.
    Bulls**t! You can never cast two abilities faster than 1 sec, with LA in between or not. And 1s casting time just add 100ms, you'll unlikely notice it.
    I think on some skills cast times are very well needed, because they are strong and make their use situational. An example is dark deal, which in PvP is normally casted, when you get the time to do so via LOSing or taking some distance. Without the channel, this skill would be far too strong and could bee used without any drawbacks in any situations.
    I'm not against casting time at all, just make sure you inform people truthfully. Btw there is no much difference between 1 sec and 1,4 sec in PvP.

    From all your statements I foresee that your main is stamplar. Nerf sorcs, buff jabs! :D

    Well I need to correct you in several cases here:

    First off jabs are not easy to weave, when you are accostumated to the GCD and instant cast abilities. But this is a matter of training (if you look at a magplar, you know why most of them prefer elemental weapons over jabs).

    back again to instant cast abilities, which pretty much fire immediately. As you said yourself, you can blockcancel them and actually reduce their animation to a minimum leaving a lot of time to weave until you can cast the next ability. The same gies for flurry, which is a 0.6 seconds channel and leaves you there fore with approximately 0.4 seconds to weave.

    Back to cast times: If you have a cast time of exactly 1 second, you still lose time compared with an instant cast ability, so it is not perfect to weave. You used the whole GCD to cast your skill, meanwhile instant cast abilities end before that and leave more room for weaving. If the cast time is 1 second, the you will need to time to weave and the start the next ability, which makes a difference in time and therefore you are slower.

    Lets take jabs again for the example of being able to cast two times for example force pulse meanwhile only one jab.
    you start both with a light attack, so far no difference. You cancel the light attack with force pulse or jabs. Force pulse deals the damage immediately and the GCD starts. Your jab is now channeling for 1.1 seconds. So the GCD for force pulse is already run out before your jab even ended. Thanks to the time between two force pulses ou even can weave. So basically with your last jab hit, your second force pulse already landed.

    You sadly misinterpreted some of the stuff I wrote before, but that happens.
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
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    twofaced wrote: »
    .. research for finishing my dummy bot ...
    idea.gif

    Edited by SirAndy on October 31, 2018 6:26PM
  • twofaced
    twofaced
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    Minno wrote: »
    You will need to provide data. A class rep and another posted confirmed differently.

    I always seek some clarification or refutation of my data. Unfortunately I've met only one person understanding and making tests so far.

    I did several runs of a bot with different delays (each test is around 50 weavings). If amount of LA and skill are equal that is considered as successfully picked delay (in reality it could be a bit different cause I picked random numbers by myself). Also CMX shows an exact event time in case if you queue your skills.
    jypcy wrote: »
    So are you suggesting that “able to LA again” is actually “choose to LA again” for convenience, although in actuality you could LA or cast another skill sooner than that? As @Minno stated, showing data would likely help clear this up.

    I'll pretend that I understand your question despite it's complicated terminology (which is understandable, because everybody just speculating with theories here, devs won't ever provide engine internal algorithms). There are certain restrictions to spam skills or LA/HA. You can test it easily using CMX, just spam LA (~630 ms between each) or skill (~1s betweeen). Ofc for successful weaving you have to follow skill delay, LA between them is just an abusing of mechanics.

    @Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Completely agree. I think balancing should be based on game mechanics, stats or even p2w options, but not on buggy animation. Somehow Cast time has higher priority than swapbar, and you can cancel animation only with block.
    Checkmath wrote: »
    First off jabs are not easy to weave, when you are accostumated to the GCD and instant cast abilities. But this is a matter of training (if you look at a magplar, you know why most of them prefer elemental weapons over jabs).

    I'm 100% sure there is no a person who precisely follows 1 sec weaving. It's more likely 1.1s to make sure your LA is registered. I don't play templar much, although I have both stam and mag toons, but I definitely like spamming jabs more than dark flare or frags or snipe.
    back again to instant cast abilities, which pretty much fire immediately. As you said yourself, you can blockcancel them and actually reduce their animation to a minimum leaving a lot of time to weave until you can cast the next ability.
    True but as I wrote in my very first post, the only actual reason to cancel animation is to queue next skill and do something else (usually run). Anyways next skill fires off after 1 sec.
    Back to cast times: If you have a cast time of exactly 1 second, you still lose time compared with an instant cast ability, so it is not perfect to weave.
    If cast time represented real delay between input and ability firing off, I wouldn't started this thread. Cast time 1s just means that your input (except block and roll) will be locked in 1 sec.
    Lets take jabs again for the example of being able to cast two times for example force pulse meanwhile only one jab.
    i will even record a video for you to prove different behavior.

  • twofaced
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    Just tested dark flare and jabs. Despite the difference of casting type, both skills acts the same. There must be an additional delay to successfully weave it. Found out that ~1250ms is enough, but jabs has one interesting feature, it takes a lot of time to blend from pose of last hit, so I have to wait ~50ms more before LA can fire. Probably this is the reason why jabs feels clunky for people. And ofc actual skill time is more than 1.1s tooltip.

    Flare weaving (1350ms total)
    giphy.gif

    IFJxjDJ.png
    KR7BPBu.png

    Jabs weaving (1400ms total)
    giphy.gif

    1gsfJxS.png

    Flare+shock
    giphy.gif

    tEcU962.png
    HuJS7MZ.png

    I don't like using CMX as a reliable source of information, it seems like it records server events which is sensitive to lags, also damage events doesn't help at all, every skill has it's own delay before damage apply. I usually count only mana drain event, this is how you can say for sure skill fires off.
    Edited by twofaced on November 1, 2018 10:14AM
  • twofaced
    twofaced
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    I will leave this data for people who wants dig a little bit further. Personally I got tired of this reverse engineering, since there is not really much here, just some misinformation here and there. I think I covered all I should know for automating build testings, and that is all I need from this game atm).
  • Checkmath
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    So you just confirmed, that jabs are clunky to use and that instant cast abilities can be casted, so that you get two abilities out in the same time you are casting one dark flare or jab?

    You stated, that dark flare weaving in total needs 1.35 seconds from initiating the following up dark flare to the previous one. In the meantime you could have already casted a second force pulse.

    So basically:

    0.0s : casting 1. force pulse / Casting 1. dark flare
    1.0s : able to cast force pulse again / Still casting dark flare
    1.1s : casting 2. froce pulse (delay from weaving and not being perfect in the GCD) / 1. dark flare fires
    approx. 1.2s : Animation of force pulse / able to weave or cast again dark flare (GCD already run off the same time as force pulse GCD ran off)

    You just provided proof yourself, that in the meantime of a cast time ability it is possible to cast two instant cast skills. The delay through cast time results in less skills casted in the end and less weaving, that is why cast time abilities are not used in PvE for dps. Even tough you can weave them perefectly for sure with training, you lose time compared to instant cast abilities.
    Edited by Checkmath on November 1, 2018 11:19AM
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    For clarification once more:The GCD starts running while initiating an instant or a cast time ability. After it runs off (so 1 sec) you are able to cast again. In the case of cast time abilities, this is different, since the animation untill the skill fires either takes up the full GCD or even exceeds it, therefore resulting in a small delay for a follow up cast. Even with a cast time of exactly 1 sec you will lose time. But there is no need to wait another GCD to cast again, since the GCD already ran off. So you do not lose a whole GCD by casting a cast time ability, but several milliseconds.
    Edited by Checkmath on November 1, 2018 11:25AM
  • twofaced
    twofaced
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    Just tested dark flare, jabs and combo crushing shock+
    Checkmath wrote: »
    So you just confirmed, that jabs are clunky to use and that instant cast abilities can be casted, so that you get two abilities out in the same time you are casting one dark flare or jab?

    You stated, that dark flare weaving in total needs 1.35 seconds from initiating the following up dark flare to the previous one. In the meantime you could have already casted a second force pulse.

    So basically:

    0.0s : casting 1. force pulse / Casting 1. dark flare
    1.0s : able to cast force pulse again / Still casting dark flare
    1.1s : casting 2. froce pulse (delay from weaving and not being perfect in the GCD) / 1. dark flare fires
    approx. 1.2s : Animation of force pulse / able to weave or cast again dark flare (GCD already run off the same time as force pulse GCD ran off)

    You just provided proof yourself, that in the meantime of a cast time ability it is possible to cast two instant cast skills. The delay through cast time results in less skills casted in the end and less weaving, that is why cast time abilities are not used in PvE for dps. Even tough you can weave them perefectly for sure with training, you lose time compared to instant cast abilities.

    We are getting nowhere, mate. Try to check your statements before posting, please. It doesn't work like this.

    0.0s: instant skill
    1.0s: instant skill
    2.0s: instant skill
    ....

    in the opposite:
    0.0s: cast cast time/channeling skill with 1s tooltip. this is where GCD started
    1.0s: casting time is over, your input is unblocked
    1.1s: skill actually finished and animation can be canceled without problem
    1.2s: cast whatever you want again

    0.2s more weaving 20k damage skill instead of 10k damage? If you are right and nobody uses cast time abilities in pve, this post should be the proof to reconsider their rotation.
    Edited by twofaced on November 1, 2018 12:15PM
  • killahsin
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    After spending months the first 2 years working out the exact ms to the hundredth on skill animations and their perfect cancel times I cant even read this post without getting frustrated. First of all saying ZoS is not being honest over what you are saying they arent being honest about is pretty cheesy when they actually " "lied" " about real things not things you created in your head that you perceive to be a lie. Much of what you are technically complaining about was added in response to the community tears. I reverse engineered that from paying attention.
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    twofaced wrote: »
    Just tested dark flare, jabs and combo crushing shock+
    Checkmath wrote: »
    So you just confirmed, that jabs are clunky to use and that instant cast abilities can be casted, so that you get two abilities out in the same time you are casting one dark flare or jab?

    You stated, that dark flare weaving in total needs 1.35 seconds from initiating the following up dark flare to the previous one. In the meantime you could have already casted a second force pulse.

    So basically:

    0.0s : casting 1. force pulse / Casting 1. dark flare
    1.0s : able to cast force pulse again / Still casting dark flare
    1.1s : casting 2. froce pulse (delay from weaving and not being perfect in the GCD) / 1. dark flare fires
    approx. 1.2s : Animation of force pulse / able to weave or cast again dark flare (GCD already run off the same time as force pulse GCD ran off)

    You just provided proof yourself, that in the meantime of a cast time ability it is possible to cast two instant cast skills. The delay through cast time results in less skills casted in the end and less weaving, that is why cast time abilities are not used in PvE for dps. Even tough you can weave them perefectly for sure with training, you lose time compared to instant cast abilities.

    We are getting nowhere, mate. Try to check your statements before posting, please. It doesn't work like this.

    0.0s: instant skill
    1.0s: instant skill
    2.0s: instant skill
    ....

    in the opposite:
    0.0s: cast cast time/channeling skill with 1s tooltip. this is where GCD started
    1.0s: casting time is over, your input is unblocked
    1.1s: skill actually finished and animation can be canceled without problem
    1.2s: cast whatever you want again

    0.2s more weaving 20k damage skill instead of 10k damage? If you are right and nobody uses cast time abilities in pve, this post should be the proof to reconsider their rotation.

    You said just exactly what I stated above. I used pretty much the same numbers and stuff to explain. I do not know, what you are reading there instead.

    The difference in dps between instant cast abilities and cast time abilities is not only the tooltip of one skill. Just as comparison the most used instant cast dps skill is elemental weapon. This skill may have approximately half the tooltip of dark flare, but grants an additional status effect like burning or concussed, which either add damage over time or amplify the damage of every other skill you have. Similar is force pulse, which only has a chance to do so, but can proc all three at the same time. In a normal rotation for a magplar there is three to four times the cast of an instant cast spammable like elemental weapon. If we would replace it with dark flare with approximately 1.35 seconds, we will almost lose a whole weave and a whole skill per rotation. Right now, light attacks are the highest part of a dps parse and therefore already losing one per rotation is a damage loss. Additionally with a spammable like elemental weapon (which is used 4 times per rotation) you will normally proc burning and concussion both once per rotation. The dot and the additional 8% damage will make up for the higher tooltip of dark flare.

    If it would be the other way round and dark flare would really outparse a spammable like elemental weapon, then why does nobody of the end content tester use dark flare?

  • MartiniDaniels
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    I'm noob of course, but it's clear that different abilities (both instant cast and casting time, damaging and buffs, etc) have additional animation time, which can't be cancelled and which is different for each skill and not showed in tooltip. Obviously, all abilities that can be cancelled fast are swarming all builds, and those which can't be reliably cancelled in real time conditions (not dummy) in same "1-sec round", those are considered useless.

    It will be fine if something like "speed factor" was showed.. i mean if anyone remember AD&D there was such parameter, which shows how fast skill can be used, though another cast may repeat only after the end of the round, but still allowed weapon attacks in same round if speed factor was small (fast).
  • Checkmath
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    So a short example just to show you an example. I took the numbers from a very recent dps parse from youtube.

    In a vacuum of three light attacks plus 3 dark flares and 4 times a light attack and 4 elemental weapons (weaving dark flare consumes 1.35 seconds as you stated, so this is around a third time more than weaving elemental weapon).:

    One elemental weapon in this parse did ca 17k damage.
    One light attack did approximately 13k damage.
    Now we take double the damage from ele weapon for dark flare damage: 34k.

    So in the vacuum we have:
    3*14k + 3*34k= 144k
    4*14k + 4*17k= 124k

    That would be the result of only comparing light attacks and skills. But in 4 times of casting ele weapon, we also should have at least on concussion proc and one burning proc.

    Burning would hit twice for around 3k in that parse during our vacuum time span, so we have 130k damage over around 4 seconds times span.

    Now the rota with elemental weapon gets additional 8% damage from concussion, which also should proc once in that span. Those 8% makes 140.4k from 130k, which is a difference of 3.6k.

    In a real rotation, you would get the damage from dots plus 144 from your dark flare. But in a rotation with elemental weapon, you would get both, the dots and the damage from ele weapon, light attacks and burning amplified by the concussion. Those 8% (even only if its present over only half the rotation) will result in more than this 3.6k difference.

    That parse, I took the numbers out, was a 60k dps parse. So over 8 seconds, that would be 480k dps. If we take concussion away, it would have been 444.4k damage over 8 seconds. Now we take 130k from our ele weapon, burning and light attacks away, which then is 314.4 . This number would represent the damage of the dots over 8 seconds, which would be the same for both rotations. If we add those 314.4 k to the 144k from the dark flare, that would be 458.4k damage. Meanwhile the elemental weapon rotation did 480k damage. So you see, the elemental weapon rotation in the end does more damage.

    If we say concussion is only up at 50% of the time (uptime should be a bit higher tough, since we have a a 33% chance to proc it per ele weapon and we have 4 casts), the ele weapon still comes up ahead with a difference of 4k.

    And now do please not say, that the comparison of 3 times dark flare and 4 times ele weapon is ***, because this would be a standard rotation to pretty much perfectly fill in the 8 seconds. If you insist to cast a fourth dark flare, then you would lose ticks from all your dots in that time.

    Edit: Sorry for editing several times.
    Edited by Checkmath on November 1, 2018 2:02PM
  • Minno
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    Yea looks like everyone is on the same page here lol.

    So what is the issue again? Cast time/channels = crap with sometimes buggy animations and instant cast = better DPS due to fast cancel/weaving (unless someone else has data showing otherwise, that is what I am seeing.)
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • jypcy
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    Thank you for the testing and showing data. When I had access to eso again I did some testing on my own and found my mistake in my initial posting, which I’ve corrected.

    It’s still not clear to me what the upshot of this post is, though. Since you commented on waiting for the animation on instant cast skills like LL yourself, I’d think it’d be obvious that cast time skills also require some measure of animation to occur before they fire. The tooltips for dark deal doesn’t say 1.3 seconds just like the tooltip for LL doesn’t say .2 seconds (or however long the animation needs to be for the skill to fire before it’s cancelled). And again, as you noted yourself, a human player likely can’t queue skills perfectly, so there’ll be delay between GCDs anyway. I can understand how the precise animation time of a skill is pertinent information for programming, but it seems like something that wouldn’t matter in practice. And if your point is
    twofaced wrote: »
    0.2s more weaving 20k damage skill instead of 10k damage? If you are right and nobody uses cast time abilities in pve, this post should be the proof to reconsider their rotation.
    which I think is a fair question and one that Checkmath took the time to answer, I recommend calling that out from the start.
  • twofaced
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    @Checkmath yeah Jabs sucks :) I'm not a huge expert in builds/rotation and keep in mind not everyone has access to elemental weapon including me btw :D . Also dark flare gives you empower, so LA should be almost 20k in vacuum )
    I fully understand why nobody uses cast time abilities in their rotation. It's unreal for human to weave it good enough))
    I'm noob of course, but it's clear that different abilities (both instant cast and casting time, damaging and buffs, etc) have additional animation time, which can't be cancelled and which is different for each skill and not showed in tooltip. Obviously, all abilities that can be cancelled fast are swarming all builds, and those which can't be reliably cancelled in real time conditions (not dummy) in same "1-sec round", those are considered useless.

    It will be fine if something like "speed factor" was showed.. i mean if anyone remember AD&D there was such parameter, which shows how fast skill can be used, though another cast may repeat only after the end of the round, but still allowed weapon attacks in same round if speed factor was small (fast).

    Perfect summarize. Totally agree.
  • sharquez
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    "proc" = P.R.O.C.= Programmed Random Occurrence

    Edited by sharquez on November 1, 2018 4:23PM
    At least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.
  • NiclasFridholm
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    What, Jabs clunky!? Its the easiest channel to LA weave. Damage wise on the other hand...
    Tobias Funke - Magplar since forever

  • twofaced
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    What, Jabs clunky!? Its the easiest channel to LA weave. Damage wise on the other hand...

    Apparently you have to block cancel and it's much longer than 1.1 they showing...
  • qbit
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    I guess I’m just daft, but how are you doing these experiments with millisecond accuracy in a consistent way?

    Wouldn’t happen to be some keystroke emulator with millisecond timings would it?
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