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Sorc how do you feel about the new dark exchange? (murkmire)?
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rafaelcsmaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭From a stam sorc pov: the cast time kills it in pve for my damage dealer. the dw enchant/ absorb glyph changes look much more attractive than doing nothing for 1.4s. Haven't set food in cyro tho.
E: doesn't mean I want the cast time removed if that means the instant return gets reduced for pvp play tho.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 23, 2018 7:17PM1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?0 -
rafaelcsmaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?
Cant really talk for every dps out there, but for me cast times in pve = big no no.
To make it work while keeping the cast time, some sort of damage buff would be needed, which could make it OP in pvp.
The cast time could be gone and all the heal + resources be over time.
Again, we will end in the endless PVE x PVP tantrum war, we cant balance both together.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?
Cant really talk for every dps out there, but for me cast times in pve = big no no.
To make it work while keeping the cast time, some sort of damage buff would be needed, which could make it OP in pvp.
The cast time could be gone and all the heal + resources be over time.
Again, we will end in the endless PVE x PVP tantrum war, we cant balance both together.
to concur this doesn't help with Sorc dps which is a big issue for Sorcs?1 -
rafaelcsmaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?
Cant really talk for every dps out there, but for me cast times in pve = big no no.
To make it work while keeping the cast time, some sort of damage buff would be needed, which could make it OP in pvp.
The cast time could be gone and all the heal + resources be over time.
Again, we will end in the endless PVE x PVP tantrum war, we cant balance both together.
to concur this doesn't help with Sorc dps which is a big issue for Sorcs?
I wouldnt say it doesnt help, but rather hinder. You lose dps by casting it in your rotation, if it were instant, the loss would be less.1 -
BLIZZchaos✭✭✭Why only sorcs? Maybe make it affect other classes with abilities like that like repentence for templars. Sorcs give magicka for stam or the other way around.. Doesnt repentance cost nothing?2
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just wish I had room for it on my bars at this point.
In PVP, the resistance changes to shields make boundless a requirement, and the loss of an overload bar makes it even more difficult to find a slot for it. When playing last night, it basically came down to Power Surge or Dark Conversion. I just didnt have room for both. If I run conversion, I am forced into spell power pots and lose a steady HOT. If I slot power surge, my sustain suffers, but I get more potion flexibility. I have been going with surge, but admittedly, not sold on the choice yet. I think I can get my sustain to wear I dont need DC, but not sure I will be able to kill anything at that point. It's going to take a while to sort out the damage ZOS did at this point.
In PVE, you are better off with spell sym (or bringing a class with better ranged damage and sustain like nightblade or templar). Channeled skills are almost always a bad call in PVE, especially in the LA meta.4 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On console, but from reading it, I like the change. Adding a restore over time component adds utility and makes it much less likely to "waste" some of the resource returns.2 -
Schattenfluegel✭✭✭✭Ive tested Dark Deal on the first two pts weaks with lower skillnumbers...
On a DD (Stamsorc), you'll be able to sustain a light attack rota on the 6 Million Dummy very well. But you'll loose Dmg because of the skills casttime...
On my new Sorctank: This Skill is gonna be awesome, if you use it on the right moment. You're regging Stamina while Blocking...
Magsorc and Stamsorc has only one Problem: Sustain...no one would use this skill in PvE because it has Casttime. And that is the biggest Issue, that the class has. What i feel about that...dont know. I've found a way around, but it will be better, if the Casttime is removed. And this could be that Chance, that the Skill Dark Deal deserve.Edited by Schattenfluegel on October 23, 2018 8:00PMLove my Stamsorc1 -
NyxWrench✭✭✭I'd say the cast time is too long. If the cast time dropped by perhaps half a second (0.7 seconds instead of 1.2), it would be workable.
It's a long term buff, which means it gets put on the back bar, as it won't get used as often. However the cast time prevents swapping bars, and most of the time I end up trying to swap bars before the cast time ends, which means I get out of sync with which bar I'm on, which means I waste even more time trying to get back on the "right" bar for what I'm trying to do.
Usage-wise, if I could add it to my rotation cleanly every 15 seconds (ie: every two rotations of Liquid Lightning + Blockade), I'd gain an overall improvement of about 360 magicka per second, which would easily push me into the net positive for magicka usage, even with fewer (no?) heavy attacks. However the cast time is like a wrinkle in the carpet I'm constantly tripping over.
So yeah, I like how it works, other than the long cast time. Drop the cast time by half a second and it would be usable without being spammable.
Edit: Fixed math.Edited by NyxWrench on October 23, 2018 9:51PM0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is not an answer for Stam Sorc or Mag Sorc DD's in pve where they have a really hard time with sustain.
Dark deal gives 6000 stamina every 20 seconds in a full rotation or 300 reg/s as an average. While this is high, the cast time adds a dps loss even when you try to take out stam regen elsewhere in the build.
For me, I use stormfist monster set and dubious camoron throne. The 319 stam regen is the most obvious answer, by using blue bi-stat food. I get more max hp/sta and invest less in my enchants to hp to reach the cap I want. 319 stam regen equates to about the same as 300sta/second. I will have about 2-3k+ extra sta and a more reliable max hp total.
Problem is the cast time. As with every cast time in the game, there is a buffer period. The 1.2 seconds is really closer to 1.6-1.7 seconds in a rotation. This is like taking out 1x light attack and 2x weapon spammables. It takes up a skill slot, meaning you can't use crit surge or you can slot it, but you would need to replace bound armaments (more dps loss on back bar). The longer time on backbar means your more likely to lose your front bar set like veiled heritance or advancing yokeda if your using a vma bow, which 99% of people end up using.
In a real parse, I never came out farther in dps with dark deal. It almost always gave me less dps and a more clunky rotation.
In pvp I was already using it, the added sustain when you sprint is really nice. It has a reduced cost with the same heal amount, making it even more reliable of a burst 4k heal then before. The slow return is awesome for pre-buffing fights, I enjoy managing the buff and keeping it active. 120sta/sec isn't bad. I really like the changes.
Unfortunately stam sorc's and mag sorc's still have 1 of the worst drain vs regen in the game. With 450+ sta regen invested and infused absorb stamina, my regen comes out to around 1600 with drain at around 1800. There is no viable way to manage it. Crushing weapon is pretty cheap now and it's the most obvious option, but I really don't like how it's only single target. Maybe flying weapons cost needs to be reduced and flurry needs to be fixed so we have more than 1 option.
Edit: I don't play mag sorc DD anymore, but magicka classes generally have higher drain and regen then stamina DD's. Stamina skills cost 15% less. Dark Exchange does not account for this fact, it gives the same return as Dark Deal. Maybe that's okay for balancing because you have magicka steal debuffs, but it makes the skill even more useless to slot. They also have pets, bound aegis and inner light needed for good dps. I would be very surprised if Dark Exchange was worth it at ALL for a mag DD.
Edit edit: with 1800 drain and 1600 regen as a REDGUARD with infused absorb stamina, dubious camoran throne and stormfist monster set, requiring crushing weapon to sustain is ridiculous. Think about the people who are not a redguard (+145 sta/sec) or the people who don't own summerset. It's really difficult to get a competitive dps without sacrificing so much and being shoehorned in to a VERY specific build.Edited by MashmalloMan on October 23, 2018 9:08PM2 -
Lasinagol✭✭✭I have an issue with using Channelled Acceleration...which also has a cast time. Two skills with a casttime mean average dps at best, and your character moves slower meaning less mobility...
On console, I have been experimenting around with builds and ideas with the conclusion of keeping everything the same just changing the shield to Boundless Storm. The "OH, s***!" moments require roll dodging and some ducking for cover...but it is a group game, right? Pvp-wise, never been more then a zergling with a luckyshot.Altmer Supremist, filthy spell slinger since Nerevar was assasinated0 -
swirve✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?
Cant really talk for every dps out there, but for me cast times in pve = big no no.
To make it work while keeping the cast time, some sort of damage buff would be needed, which could make it OP in pvp.
The cast time could be gone and all the heal + resources be over time.
Again, we will end in the endless PVE x PVP tantrum war, we cant balance both together.
to concur this doesn't help with Sorc dps which is a big issue for Sorcs?
Yup, in our guild Sorcs are parsing 7 to 8k below NBs, and 5k below DKs and Plars based on averages across skill lvl... i.e high 50k to 40k
Based on non cheese self buffing baseline tests.Edited by swirve on October 23, 2018 9:48PM1 -
Somewhere✭✭✭✭I think it's too generalized of a skill to be perfectly honest. It gives a resource and health back on demand, which requires some tuning (cast time in zos case) to be balanced. NB gets both returned on siphoning strikes, but theirs requires an active component (light/heavy attacks) hence why that is balanced.
As a heal it's too slow to save me, and as a resource return it's inferior to spell symmetry because that skill grants empower and is faster, so less dps loss.
Basically the skill is used as a heal or as resource management, but rarely both. Certainly it uses only one skill slot, but as I said, I can't rely on this to do either job, so I still have to slot another heal or a different resource tool.
So the skill is doing two jobs, and neither of them very well. What's the point?Edited by Somewhere on October 23, 2018 10:16PM0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Have unslotted it in 2015, never bothered with it again.
Since sorcs tend to have other cast time stuff and their abilities have one or limited purposes, we end up with a big skills bars real estate issue.
The constant lack of regen, constant need of low health buff regen foods, constant need of expensive potions and need to use heavy attack made me just switch to an heavy attack build. At least, heavy attacks now have a "meaning" and I don't need all the expensive micromanagement. However with 4 to 6 skill slots used by double bar abilities (pets included), there's no room for something that is useless anyway in "always on the run" trials like vCR + x and vAS + x.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Ciovala✭✭✭Magden has a small overall nerf. Like it was so strong before...Looking for a mature and helpful social guild - play PvE, PvP, and like crafting.0
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Kikke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PvE: Cast time makes this ability useless. Stamina slots absorb stamina glyph and Magicka slots absorb magicka over using this ability.
PvP:Because of said cast time this ability favored stam sorc before and during the speed meta greatly, as interrupting a speeding monster was hard. Meanwhile not letting a MagSorc get it off was an easy affair. In combination with MagSorcs already lacking stamina, using it for a heal / sustain that can be interrupted and slows down our offense and our defence was and is meaningless.Edited by Kikke on October 24, 2018 12:56AMCleared Trials:
- vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
-Someone said it, I guess.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mathematically the skill rewards well for what it costs (resources + cast time), but in PVE this simply doesnt work well. From stamsorc point of view the design of class doesnt allow space for it anyway partly because of need to double slot bound armaments which then buff light attacks that are delayed by having to use cast time ability. Slotting the ability or using it also doesnt help stamsorc at all.
It is powerful PVP skill no doubt about it, the healing is somewhat useful in PVP too but from PVE point other classes resources are just superior. They all have instant cast sustain skills with useful passives. Stamsorc gets nothing but the stamina and on cast time skill and slotting it usually 'costs' something, be it armaments, crit surge, blade cloak, vigor, .... From my experience on every class I dont feel like having to slot sustain skill costs me something better to put there...1 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I use the skill on my bowbow stamsorc. It is lousy compared to Vigor (slow and cannot help allies) but the reason I use it is because bowsorcs struggle with sustain. I need every bit of stam for dps/block/bash/roll so I want a magicka powered heal and getting more stam from it is a good bonus. Because of the cast time, the skill is a poor part of any rotation. Therefore I only use it as an emergency heal or if I screw up managing my stam.
I'd be happier with it if the skill had no cast time - I could accept a 1 second delay after my insta cast until the exchange happened.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
hero2zer0✭✭✭At it’s current state, it’s either a dps loss (pve), or 2 lost gcd (sometimes 3, depending on lag - pvp).
The core problem with it is the cast time, it should be made instant cast, keep the same amount of (instant) health returned, and spread the entire mag/stam return (maybe even adjust it) over time. This way it could be used as a self heal which is not a pet, and it will help with sustain while not being outright OP as it used to be when fengrush ran stamsorc.Edited by hero2zer0 on October 24, 2018 10:02AM1 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Havent tested (console), but on paper it looks terrible. The cast time was bad before, now its worse, dont see anyone using it on pve.
What would make it rewarding for dps characters to use it?
If it purged stupid ideas from the minds of the combat team!0 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭I like what they did with Dark Deal from a PvP perspective.Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
Theorycrafting enthusiast
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CP1500+ club0 -
lokulin✭✭✭✭✭From a sorc tank perspective the cast time while manageable is one of the things that stops sorc be a real contender for a proper tank to rival a DK. The DK gets uninterruptible ways of returning stamina while still blocking. For sure there are ways to do it on a sorc (ice staves, potion jewelry enchants, being argonian), but a DK can also do all that and more. It would be nice to have a morph of a shield or something that returned stamina instead of magicka perhaps. Or just make the cast time instant and have some kind of penalty for recasting early.I've hidden your signature.1 -
twofaced✭✭✭I wonder how many of you able to realize that you loose 0.2 sec casting 1.2 sec ability in your precious rotation. GCD is 1 sec anyways.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I wonder how many of you able to realize that you loose 0.2 sec casting 1.2 sec ability in your precious rotation. GCD is 1 sec anyways.
Have you ever actually tried to use it in a rotation? I'm guessing not.
It's not just the fact that the cast time exceeds the GCD. It's the fact that the cast time means it can't be animation canceled, so it is awkward to use, and has to be recast if you get caught casting it when you need to dodge/block/break free. Cast time skills in general are undesirable in PvE. You're better off using an Absorb Stamina/Magicka enchant and heavy attacking every now and again than you are using Dark Deal.Edited by LiquidPony on October 24, 2018 7:53PM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Essentially, it’s a poor man’s Siphoning Strikes due to the cast times.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Tasear IMO this skill should be both an instant cast & a cast time.
Let me explain. You should be able to double-tap or block cancel it during the animation to get the 20 second regen buff at no cost (ala something like netch), maintaining the cast completes the resource burst.0331
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Cres✭✭✭Do you feel rewarded for cast time?
Does it help you sustain?
Still evaluating it for PVP as stam sorc. Will report back when I get a better feel for it and adjust my play style. Quick reaction, I would sacrifice some of the healing for it to be instant cast.
For PVE, it's still useless in most scenariosEdited by Cres on October 24, 2018 8:36PM0 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I used it today. It was super awful.
If I make it my only heal, that's a problem. 0