Boundless Storm in Murkmire

Bergzorn

Excuse my language, @ZOS_Wrobel, but four seconds of Major Expedition on Boundless Storm just sucks. It's like showing me a piece of candy and then telling me I can't have it. The 7.5 seconds it had before were not overwhelming, but it felt at least useful.

Please consider replacing it with something else or just remove it and lower the cost of the skill (considerably).

The damage component could also use a review. There was a nice analysis of its problems by @Derra somewhere, maybe he can be bothered to copy/paste it in here.

Mintaka5

Boundless storm is garbage. I have it up at all times, and it is rarely a deterrent to enemy players. It's basically a light show with some speed buff, and marginal resistances. I try to convince myself that it's actually doing something useful, but DKs won't even think twice about meleeing me with it up, and even squishy NBs just charge in, put down some heavy bleed rending slashes, and I'm finished. Stamsorcs don't seem to have this problem with hurricane, but yet @ZOS_Wrobel seems to have a sconge for stam builds.

CasNation

I used Boundless heavily in BG's previously...now considering Immovable Brute as a potential alternative if I seap to heavy armor...

Bergzorn

Mintaka5 wrote: »

Boundless storm is garbage.

Pre-Murkmire, there was no need to slot or discuss the skill, it wasn't worth it. This changed with Major Resolve and Major Ward affecting damage shields.

Several people gave their feedback in the PTS forum already and said the skill is still underperforming (then it got nerfed, lol). I just felt like bringing this discussion up again.

NordSwordnBoard

Already switched to Hurricane. Larger aoe, speed bonus still useful, damage is weaker (but that was already weak), and works better at outing NBs than boundless. It's a flex skill for me, so not always there.

Mintaka5

Bergzorn wrote: »

I just felt like bringing this discussion up again.

I agree with you and I'm glad you did. You're spot on though. It is well beyond under-performing, and like I said it is practically just elaborate light show.

Bergzorn

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Already switched to Hurricane.

Hurricane uses your weapon critical rating. It sucks to give up on crits when your already weak class 'HOT', Power Surge, depends on crits to heal at all.

React

They went completely overboard with the expedition nerfs. Having easily accessible 100% uptime long duration expedition from potions is one thing, that needed an adjustment. But they didn't need to nerf quick cloak, hasty retreat, boundless storm, sets that grant expedition from kills, etc. That's just complete overkill.

Xeniph

Bergzorn wrote: »

Excuse my language, @ZOS_Wrobel, but four seconds of Major Expedition on Boundless Storm just sucks. It's like showing me a piece of candy and then telling me I can't have it. The 7.5 seconds it had before were not overwhelming, but it felt at least useful.

Please consider replacing it with something else or just remove it and lower the cost of the skill (considerably).

The damage component could also use a review. There was a nice analysis of its problems by @Derra somewhere, maybe he can be bothered to copy/paste it in here.

While I agree with most about the Major Expedition nerfs being over the top.

The usefulness and power of Storm/Hurricane has never been the damage of the skill itself, but in the massive healing it provides via Crit Surge, the ability to proc implosion on multiple targets at the same time and revealing stealthed players. On top of a little bit of resists, which sorcs get to double dip on now as it buffs self and shield strength.

Of coarse the duration nerf sucks as does it for every other skill. However the ability is by no means useless, assuming you can find a place for it on your bars.

Biro123

Xeniph wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Excuse my language, @ZOS_Wrobel, but four seconds of Major Expedition on Boundless Storm just sucks. It's like showing me a piece of candy and then telling me I can't have it. The 7.5 seconds it had before were not overwhelming, but it felt at least useful.

Please consider replacing it with something else or just remove it and lower the cost of the skill (considerably).

The damage component could also use a review. There was a nice analysis of its problems by @Derra somewhere, maybe he can be bothered to copy/paste it in here.

While I agree with most about the Major Expedition nerfs being over the top.

The usefulness and power of Storm/Hurricane has never been the damage of the skill itself, but in the massive healing it provides via Crit Surge, the ability to proc implosion on multiple targets at the same time and revealing stealthed players. On top of a little bit of resists, which sorcs get to double dip on now as it buffs self and shield strength.

Of coarse the duration nerf sucks as does it for every other skill. However the ability is by no means useless, assuming you can find a place for it on your bars.

Not only for the skill, but also for surge to make it useful.. I can't find space for 2 'buff skills', yet one without the other is really weak for the cost.
Not to mention that the DMG radius of it is less than the range of all melee attacks, so still not reliable for surge procs.

Bergzorn

Let me see. This is not about the rather large Hurricane AOE, it's about the 5m radius Boundless Storm.

Xeniph wrote: »

massive healing it provides via Crit Surge

The Surge heals help, but massive? Not in PvP, especially not in no CP PvP (my playground).

Xeniph wrote: »

the ability to proc implosion on multiple targets at the same time

The damage of Boundless Storm is indeed so low that it's probably the only shock damage where you would not have died from the damage without the implosion proc. I have a hard time seeing this as an upside. If you are close to me (5m) and drop below 20%, I will focus on finishing you off with Endless Fury anyways. In fact, the Implosion proc even prevents me from getting some magica back.

Xeniph wrote: »

revealing stealthed players

In a five meter radius.

Xeniph wrote: »

a little bit of resists, which sorcs get to double dip on now as it buffs self and shield strength

Not sure if I would call it double-dipping, but resistances affecting wards is the only thing that makes Boundless Storm really worth considering.

Now if Boundless Storm had a range comparable to Hurricane, it would probably be awesome. But it hasn't, and it isn't.

Derra

Xeniph wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Excuse my language, @ZOS_Wrobel, but four seconds of Major Expedition on Boundless Storm just sucks. It's like showing me a piece of candy and then telling me I can't have it. The 7.5 seconds it had before were not overwhelming, but it felt at least useful.

Please consider replacing it with something else or just remove it and lower the cost of the skill (considerably).

The damage component could also use a review. There was a nice analysis of its problems by @Derra somewhere, maybe he can be bothered to copy/paste it in here.

While I agree with most about the Major Expedition nerfs being over the top.

The usefulness and power of Storm/Hurricane has never been the damage of the skill itself, but in the massive healing it provides via Crit Surge, the ability to proc implosion on multiple targets at the same time and revealing stealthed players. On top of a little bit of resists, which sorcs get to double dip on now as it buffs self and shield strength.

Of coarse the duration nerf sucks as does it for every other skill. However the ability is by no means useless, assuming you can find a place for it on your bars.

This is a topic specifically about boundless storm.

Which basically makes everything apart from your first sentence irrelevant because none of what you write would be true if you were to replace hurricane and critsurge with boundless storm and powersurge.

I honestly can´t find my post about boundless storm in the sorc topic - it should be around page 35 to 45 but maybe i´m getting tunnel vision.


In short:
Boundless storm has too little range to work as a melee deterent - all melee specs except for nb can atleast partially avoid it. About half can avoid it entirely.

Boundless storm is way to expensive for what it does - short comparison to other classes magica armor buff skills from bad to good:

Sorc - 4050 base cost 5m dot + 4s expedition + useless execute passive (replace this already)
Warden - 4050 base cost - aoe + full duration minor protection
DK - 2900 base cast - giant aoe dot on cast + useful dmg reflect mechanic on any range + best passive (12% healing when active) in the game associated
nb - passive
templar - 1900 base cost + resource mechanic + minor mending passive + 50% stronger when immobile

Feanor

Practically it’s a big flashy sign post saying “hit me next I’m a juicy target for your Bleeds”.

Bergzorn

But it's not

Feanor wrote: »

big,

let's make it truly boundless. Give it a ten meter radius and remove the cooldown from Power Surge / change it to a target-based cooldown (yay, more lag) / change the Implosion passive to sth. like Blood Magic.

Start improving the synergies between sorc skills to a point where we are really complaining about bar space because we have so many good skills when combined. I'm talking about utility, viability, and flexibility, apart from a potato-mashing lined-up burst combo. Change Rebate and Expert Summoner to be useful for non-pet builds.

Well, or just blatantly overload a few of our class skills.

It was hinted in the class rep notes that changes for sorc combat are coming, they are probably already set in stone. They better be good.

Feanor

It was hinted in the class rep notes that changes for sorc combat are coming. They better be good.

@Bergzorn

No ETA though. Also, I meant the visual, not the actual radius.

TheYKcid

The sheer spike in general DPS levels as well as the huge drop to Sorc's survivability leads me to think that Boundless needs something like minor protection attached to it for the class to stand the remotest chance in a competitive environment.

steussy

Liam12548 wrote: »

They went completely overboard with the expedition nerfs. Having easily accessible 100% uptime long duration expedition from potions is one thing, that needed an adjustment. But they didn't need to nerf quick cloak, hasty retreat, boundless storm, sets that grant expedition from kills, etc. That's just complete overkill.

It's Nerfimax they go overboard with everything.

katorga

Having easily accessible 100% uptime long duration expedition from potions is one thing, that needed an adjustment.

Partially accepting the original premise means you are halfway to losing your argument. The near permanent uptime for expedition was necessary because of the near permanent uptime for snares. The ONLY change needed was to bring forward momentum into line with the other snare removal skills either in terms of cost or duration.

Speed wasn't the issue, permanent uptime for snare immunity was.

Beardimus

It's not a great skill post nerf, but we need that resistance so I'll run it, it's ok we can pop it on our Overload bar so it doesn't waste a slot










Oh wait........dagnammit

Irylia

Boundless could

1. Return mag per second like rune
2. Be passively activated after streaking and provide major res buff + aoe shock to proc surge for x seconds.
3. Have minor protection attached
4. Be 1k cheaper + 2m on shock

Instead we get too many skills to slot on our not enough bar space.

Vapirko

Liam12548 wrote: »

They went completely overboard with the expedition nerfs. Having easily accessible 100% uptime long duration expedition from potions is one thing, that needed an adjustment. But they didn't need to nerf quick cloak, hasty retreat, boundless storm, sets that grant expedition from kills, etc. That's just complete overkill.

Once again proving without a doubt that the combat balance has absolutely no clue what they’re doing when it comes to PvP. Did anyone really expect more? This game isn’t about play how you want, it’s adapt to the uncalled for changes or gtfo.

Derra

Irylia wrote: »

Boundless could

1. Return mag per second like rune
2. Be passively activated after streaking and provide major res buff + aoe shock to proc surge for x seconds.
3. Have minor protection attached
4. Be 1k cheaper + 2m on shock

Instead we get too many skills to slot on our not enough bar space.

That´s the issue - it´s not like only doing something about boundless would change that slotting chudan ist tempting because the class is starved for barspace.

Atm i have to chose if i slot boundless, surge, mutagen, elemental drain - all these skills compete for the same slot. It simply doesn´t work out.

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Boundless could

1. Return mag per second like rune
2. Be passively activated after streaking and provide major res buff + aoe shock to proc surge for x seconds.
3. Have minor protection attached
4. Be 1k cheaper + 2m on shock

Instead we get too many skills to slot on our not enough bar space.

That´s the issue - it´s not like only doing something about boundless would change that slotting chudan ist tempting because the class is starved for barspace.

Atm i have to chose if i slot boundless, surge, mutagen, elemental drain - all these skills compete for the same slot. It simply doesn´t work out.

Boundless, if you're not running VMA resto. If you do, ...I dunno. Tough. Very tough decision.

bardx86

Feanor wrote: »

It was hinted in the class rep notes that changes for sorc combat are coming. They better be good.

@Bergzorn

No ETA though. Also, I meant the visual, not the actual radius.

IMO the 10% increase to Frags was the change they mentioned. Sucks but I assume thats it.

Feanor

bardx86 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

It was hinted in the class rep notes that changes for sorc combat are coming. They better be good.

@Bergzorn

No ETA though. Also, I meant the visual, not the actual radius.

IMO the 10% increase to Frags was the change they mentioned. Sucks but I assume thats it.

While you could be right, the class rep notes from September 25th state the following:

We also said that ZOS has hit sorcerer offensive capability pretty hard the past year, which makes the sort of build diversity they want harder. They acknowledged this and did more than insinuate that sorcerer offense is going to be reformed in the future (at one point, a dev asked out loud if they could be specific. They could not).

Doesn’t read like a simple 10% buff on a RNG proc ability. The question is what timeline “future” really means.

hero2zer0

At this point I will be happy if they remove sorc class, grant us all a free class respec token!

Bergzorn

For me personally, it's sorc or GTFO. Simply because I'm not willing to grind up a new class and L2P it to a decent level.

It's a matter of principle. I refuse to re-roll when common sense dictates that all classes should be more or less viable. I mean, nobody in their right mind would suggest that a class is made non-competitive by purpose. It is a bit mind-boggling though that ZOS hasn't achieved a decent class balance at this point (the whole chisel vs. sledge hammer thing).

Also, this game simply feels not worth the time investment atm.

Edit: I remember times when a large portion of the community seemed ok with the state of class balance and mainly the CP system and unbalanced itemization was considered a problem (weapon skill lines to some degree). Each of these points has gotten worse, not better.

TheYKcid

Bergzorn wrote: »

Edit: I remember times when a large portion of the community seemed ok with the state of class balance and mainly the CP system and unbalanced itemization was considered a problem (weapon skill lines to some degree). Each of these points has gotten worse, not better.

For me, HotR was one of the better balance patches we've had in a while. The procalypse was duly reeled-in, and the weapon trait normalisation was a very nice touch too.

To be fair, there've been several healthy adjustments since then—retraiting in CWC, 2H=2pc in Summerset, and the cost posion nerf this recent Nerfmire update.

Nearly everything else has been a string of massive, detrimental balance blunders, though. Overall balance has been getting worse with every subsequent update.