Steel Tornado vs. Bloodthirst

Solariken

TL;DR - ZOS, we have a bit of a problem here. Either Bloodthirst is woefully underpowered, or Steel Tornado is overpowered. Please decide which to address. Maybe even read the forums for some insight

Using my level 42 Khajiit Stamwarden I did several quick tests on a Precursor dummy for both skills using nothing but light attack weaves between each skill spam. The bars and gear were exactly the same, no buffs added. I have 2 enchants, frost and poison, so there would be some small variation based on status effect proc RNG. I was also using 2 axes so the only other variable is the Twin Blade & Blunt proc RNG. Here are the DPS results:

LA + Steel Tornado (only RANK 1)
11604.9
10826.5
10170.0
11256.0

LA + Bloodthirst (RANK 4)
8620.7
9526.2
8944.3
9694.8


Steel Tornado is AOE, has a larger range, more burst, does not require a target, and is undodgeable;

Bloodthirst does have a heal component but IMO it's pretty small and insignificant. It also costs slightly less, but the cost difference feels insignificant since I can easily spam both skills without running out of resources until the dummy is dead.

Note that I would have used a max level toon but I don't have any other toons with points wasted on Bloodthirst. I can't think of any reason why it would make a difference anyway.

How has this been left so egregiously out of whack for so long? @ZOS_Wrobel please address.

I would suggest a two-pronged balancing maneuver: increase the cost of Steel Tornado (this morph only) by at least 30% AND buff the damage of Bloodthirst (all morphs) by at least 15%. Then I think we'd be in a pretty decent place balance-wise.

Chilly-McFreeze

At which health threshold did you test that? How often did each crit? Why didn't you use the damage oriented morph instead of bloodthirst? ST already costs 1k more stam on my toon and has a lower tooltip.
E: cp distribution?

Solariken

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

At which health threshold did you test that? How often did each crit? Why didn't you use the damage oriented morph instead of bloodthirst? ST already costs 1k more stam on my toon and has a lower tooltip.
E: cp distribution?

100 to 0

Only ~800 Stam cost difference

I only used Bloodthirst because it's the morph I had been using in BG leveling until Steel Tornado was available.

I am max CP and didn't want to waste gold on respec for testing, but the largest investment is in Mighty, Physical weapons, and penetration.

Chilly-McFreeze

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

At which health threshold did you test that? How often did each crit? Why didn't you use the damage oriented morph instead of bloodthirst? ST already costs 1k more stam on my toon and has a lower tooltip.
E: cp distribution?

100 to 0

Only ~800 Stam cost difference

I only used Bloodthirst because it's the morph I had been using in BG leveling until Steel Tornado was available.

I am max CP and didn't want to waste gold on respec for testing, but the largest investment is in Mighty, Physical weapons, and penetration.

right, around 800, my bad

But I'd rather know your cp distribution between thaumaturge and master at arms

Waffennacht

The HoT you consider insignificant is actually huge, the number of things that can proc via HoT alone is massive.

That's why it's a lower damage.

I feel boundless storm needs buffing before any other ability changes next

Solariken

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

At which health threshold did you test that? How often did each crit? Why didn't you use the damage oriented morph instead of bloodthirst? ST already costs 1k more stam on my toon and has a lower tooltip.
E: cp distribution?

100 to 0

Only ~800 Stam cost difference

I only used Bloodthirst because it's the morph I had been using in BG leveling until Steel Tornado was available.

I am max CP and didn't want to waste gold on respec for testing, but the largest investment is in Mighty, Physical weapons, and penetration.

right, around 800, my bad

But I'd rather know your cp distribution between thaumaturge and master at arms

I'll have to check, but I may just do the tests again without CP for better results. I suspect the points I raised will still be true, which is that there should be one clear choice for single target damage (hint: the single target skill)

Waffennacht wrote: »

The HoT you consider insignificant is actually huge, the number of things that can proc via HoT alone is massive.

That's why it's a lower damage.

I feel boundless storm needs buffing before any other ability changes next

I just did the math comparing both Flurry morphs using UESP default stats @Waffennacht. Would you like to know what the total damage difference is? 415 (or ~207 in PvP). Nobody in their right mind would give up the heal for 207 damage, no matter how small, because as you said the heal can proc other effects, but that doesn't mean the skill is good enough.

But my original argument is only that Flurry is a little underperforming and Steel Tornado is a little overtuned.

Waffennacht

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

At which health threshold did you test that? How often did each crit? Why didn't you use the damage oriented morph instead of bloodthirst? ST already costs 1k more stam on my toon and has a lower tooltip.
E: cp distribution?

100 to 0

Only ~800 Stam cost difference

I only used Bloodthirst because it's the morph I had been using in BG leveling until Steel Tornado was available.

I am max CP and didn't want to waste gold on respec for testing, but the largest investment is in Mighty, Physical weapons, and penetration.

right, around 800, my bad

But I'd rather know your cp distribution between thaumaturge and master at arms

I'll have to check, but I may just do the tests again without CP for better results. I suspect the points I raised will still be true, which is that there should be one clear choice for single target damage (hint: the single target skill)

Waffennacht wrote: »

The HoT you consider insignificant is actually huge, the number of things that can proc via HoT alone is massive.

That's why it's a lower damage.

I feel boundless storm needs buffing before any other ability changes next

I just did the math comparing both Flurry morphs using UESP default stats @Waffennacht. Would you like to know what the total damage difference is? 415 (or ~207 in PvP). Nobody in their right mind would give up the heal for 207 damage, no matter how small, because as you said the heal can proc other effects, but that doesn't mean the skill is good enough.

But my original argument is only that Flurry is a little underperforming and Steel Tornado is a little overtuned.

I think the original intent was to have flurry buffed by Maelstrom weapons.

I wouldn't disagree with a buff to flurry, it'd make things more interesting.

leepalmer95

I think a big problem with it is that light do so much dps now that you'll hit more light using steel tornado because it's instant while flurry isn't.

I'm assuming the cp was the same? Same amount of direct dmg cp as dot dmg? Or did you disable cp altogether?

Flurry seems significantly cheaper than steel tornado as well.

Checkmath

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I think a big problem with it is that light do so much dps now that you'll hit more light using steel tornado because it's instant while flurry isn't.

I'm assuming the cp was the same? Same amount of direct dmg cp as dot dmg? Or did you disable cp altogether?

Flurry seems significantly cheaper than steel tornado as well.

Flurrys cast time is 0.6 seconds, there is plenty of time to weave in between. So I do not think, that the light attacks make the difference.
The tooltip of flurry is definitely higher, than the one from steeltornado, but the execute damage probably made the difference. Steeltornados damage should be higher than flurrys at around 30% health already.

rumple9

You can't parse at level 42 and give advice to others/ complain to zos

Ender1310

Steel tornado is really good. No reason to use anything else really. The undodgable aspect of it.. Right there it beats flurry in my opinion. Next patch..we will see.

Solariken

rumple9 wrote: »

You can't parse at level 42 and give advice to others/ complain to zos

Why? The disparities between the two skills will present the same at any level.

Edit: I should add that I have 8 max level Stam toons on my account all of which have used Steel Tornado builds at some point (because that skill is good) but none have ever used Bloodthirst as a spammable (because it sucks).

I only used my 42 because Bim not about to waste my own resources in game to test for ZOS.

Waffennacht

Solariken wrote: »

rumple9 wrote: »

You can't parse at level 42 and give advice to others/ complain to zos

Why? The disparities between the two skills will present the same at any level.

Edit: I should add that I have 8 max level Stam toons on my account all of which have used Steel Tornado builds at some point (because that skill is good) but none have ever used Bloodthirst as a spammable (because it sucks).

I only used my 42 because Bim not about to waste my own resources in game to test for ZOS.

I remember you from back in the day.

I definitely respect your opinion, iirc we discussed mag sorc pet builds right when wrothgar dropped

Solariken

Waffennacht wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

rumple9 wrote: »

You can't parse at level 42 and give advice to others/ complain to zos

Why? The disparities between the two skills will present the same at any level.

Edit: I should add that I have 8 max level Stam toons on my account all of which have used Steel Tornado builds at some point (because that skill is good) but none have ever used Bloodthirst as a spammable (because it sucks).

I only used my 42 because Bim not about to waste my own resources in game to test for ZOS.

I remember you from back in the day.

I definitely respect your opinion, iirc we discussed mag sorc pet builds right when wrothgar dropped

Did we play together @Waffennacht? I was PC-only from beta to console launch, but only stayed with console for ~7 months, then swapped back to the master race.

Waffennacht

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

rumple9 wrote: »

You can't parse at level 42 and give advice to others/ complain to zos

Why? The disparities between the two skills will present the same at any level.

Edit: I should add that I have 8 max level Stam toons on my account all of which have used Steel Tornado builds at some point (because that skill is good) but none have ever used Bloodthirst as a spammable (because it sucks).

I only used my 42 because Bim not about to waste my own resources in game to test for ZOS.

I remember you from back in the day.

I definitely respect your opinion, iirc we discussed mag sorc pet builds right when wrothgar dropped

Did we play together @Waffennacht? I was PC-only from beta to console launch, but only stayed with console for ~7 months, then swapped back to the master race.

I think so. It has been a while now lol

Solariken

I removed all blue CP except Mighty and Piercing and did 2 quick tests, no changes in build.

5 Hundings, 2 Slimecraw, 3 Endurance, 2 Briarheart


.


The only extra variable in parse is that I got one proc of Twin Blade with Steel Tornado... I'm actually pretty convinced that Bloodthirst can't even proc Twin Blade which is totally stupid (further devalues the skill).

Kanar

Solariken wrote: »

I removed all blue CP except Mighty and Piercing and did 2 quick tests, no changes in build.

5 Hundings, 2 Slimecraw, 3 Endurance, 2 Briarheart


.


The only extra variable in parse is that I got one proc of Twin Blade with Steel Tornado... I'm actually pretty convinced that Bloodthirst can't even proc Twin Blade which is totally stupid (further devalues the skill).

Flurry is a buggy and broken skill. I would be surprised if any CP improves it's damage, or if it could even proc veiled heritance or stormfist. ZoS has left it a buggy mess for so long.

You got 7 hits of axe bleed so more than one proc.

Solariken

Kanar wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I removed all blue CP except Mighty and Piercing and did 2 quick tests, no changes in build.

5 Hundings, 2 Slimecraw, 3 Endurance, 2 Briarheart


.


The only extra variable in parse is that I got one proc of Twin Blade with Steel Tornado... I'm actually pretty convinced that Bloodthirst can't even proc Twin Blade which is totally stupid (further devalues the skill).

Flurry is a buggy and broken skill. I would be surprised if any CP improves it's damage, or if it could even proc veiled heritance or stormfist. ZoS has left it a buggy mess for so long.

You got 7 hits of axe bleed so more than one proc.

Ah yeah sorry looks like 2 proc with the second not finishing. Even more amazing since Bloodthirst hits at least five times more often lol.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

There is nothing wrong with the skills. You are testing them incorrectly. As I explained in the other thread. I will simply copy the posts I made there, even your condescending reply to me.

Solariken wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO you can do the test yourself, which I already have. Do a dummy parse using nothing but LA + Bloodthirst and then another with LA + Steel Tornado, and then come back to apologise.

yeah not seeing it. also, why would i light attack, we are just testing the skills right?

my base stats for steel tornado and blood thirst on my stamblade, not using buffs or stat changing sets.

as i said, base stats, blood thirst is around 75% more power then steel tornado, in my case it is 77% more probably because i have more into thaumaturge then master at arms, as 1279*4 =5116 and then 1279*300% is 3837 and together that is 8953 and as you can see,. steel tornado is 5049, so 8953/5049 is 1.77.

i did 2 parse, basically using syphon attacks, pots and then regen food to make the parse last as long as it could. i then spammed both skills till i was out of stam. this are the results. keep in mind, i did the steel tornado after the blood thirst, so there is some scaling from the execute.

steel tornado-

bloodthirst

not only could i spam bloodthirst longer, it did more average dps. look at nex to the max, average for blood thirst is 1950, which you have to multiply by 5 hits, to get 9750, to steel tornadoes 6673. i was able to cast blood thirst 51 times before going out of stam and steel tornado only 35.

if you have different evidence, i would like to see it.

Solariken wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO here you go. I removed all blue CP except Mighty and Piercing and did 2 quick tests, no changes in build. Also you should absolutely test with light attack weaves because it's the foundation of DPS in this game.

5 Hundings, 2 Slimecraw, 3 Endurance, 2 Briarheart

.

The only extra variable in parse is that I got one proc of Twin Blade with Steel Tornado... I'm actually pretty convinced that Bloodthirst can't even proc Twin Blade which is totally stupid (further devalues the skill).

still not seeing it. Look at the average damage for the skills. your steel tornado was 7345. your blood thirst was 1932, with is actually 9660 per cast, cause 5 hits. even if you look at the DPS section, steel tornado did less then bloodthirst, 6571 vs 7586, the damage difference at the end of your parse, which is a whole 239 by the way can be attributed to one more of your light attacks or whatever other variable you introduced into your test.

Solariken

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with the skills. You are testing them incorrectly. As I explained in the other thread. I will simply copy the posts I made there, even your condescending reply to me.

Solariken wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO you can do the test yourself, which I already have. Do a dummy parse using nothing but LA + Bloodthirst and then another with LA + Steel Tornado, and then come back to apologise.

yeah not seeing it. also, why would i light attack, we are just testing the skills right?

my base stats for steel tornado and blood thirst on my stamblade, not using buffs or stat changing sets.

as i said, base stats, blood thirst is around 75% more power then steel tornado, in my case it is 77% more probably because i have more into thaumaturge then master at arms, as 1279*4 =5116 and then 1279*300% is 3837 and together that is 8953 and as you can see,. steel tornado is 5049, so 8953/5049 is 1.77.

i did 2 parse, basically using syphon attacks, pots and then regen food to make the parse last as long as it could. i then spammed both skills till i was out of stam. this are the results. keep in mind, i did the steel tornado after the blood thirst, so there is some scaling from the execute.

steel tornado-

bloodthirst

not only could i spam bloodthirst longer, it did more average dps. look at nex to the max, average for blood thirst is 1950, which you have to multiply by 5 hits, to get 9750, to steel tornadoes 6673. i was able to cast blood thirst 51 times before going out of stam and steel tornado only 35.

if you have different evidence, i would like to see it.

Solariken wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO here you go. I removed all blue CP except Mighty and Piercing and did 2 quick tests, no changes in build. Also you should absolutely test with light attack weaves because it's the foundation of DPS in this game.

5 Hundings, 2 Slimecraw, 3 Endurance, 2 Briarheart

.

The only extra variable in parse is that I got one proc of Twin Blade with Steel Tornado... I'm actually pretty convinced that Bloodthirst can't even proc Twin Blade which is totally stupid (further devalues the skill).

still not seeing it. Look at the average damage for the skills. your steel tornado was 7345. your blood thirst was 1932, with is actually 9660 per cast, cause 5 hits. even if you look at the DPS section, steel tornado did less then bloodthirst, 6571 vs 7586, the damage difference at the end of your parse, which is a whole 239 by the way can be attributed to one more of your light attacks or whatever other variable you introduced into your test.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO I appreciate your testing and opinion, and I'm sorry for my jerky reply above.

However there are more things to consider here:

I was able to do both tests without running out of stam at all, which is probably a major factor in why my Steelnado:Bloodthirst parse was higher than yours.

Steel Tornado has the advantage of undodgeable AOE burst and can proc all the things.

Bloodthirst has no advantage over Steelnado besides a higher base tooltip which is actually kind of misleading IMO. Bloodthirst is super handicapped because it offers barely any practical synergy; it can't even proc axe Twin Blade it seems.

But I guess here is the big litmus test:

Would you ever actually slot Bloodthirst in any practical situation?

I've super rarely seen it used in end game PvE, and in PvP it's slightly less rare but only because it's used to proc OP Skoria in BG's.

TBois

It also cant proc things like ravager that proc off of melee damage, but steel tornado and templar jabs can

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

However there are more things to consider here:

sure are.

I was able to do both tests without running out of stam at all, which is probably a major factor in why my Steelnado:Bloodthirst parse was higher than yours.

this is the least important thing about the tests we did. the only thing it demonstrates to me is that if you tried to use ST as a spammable in a rotation, you will not be able to sustain as good.

Steel Tornado has the advantage of undodgeable AOE burst and can proc all the things.

i realize this thread is the pvp subforum but i am a pver, burst matters not to me. i do agree that the biggest problem with flurry, is that it cant proc the axe bleed. though it is the only skill in the game that hits for 5 times in under a second, single target, so it has the highest chance to proc everything that is damage related in a single cast. , look at my parse and see how many times velidreth procced on both, so that has to count for something.

Bloodthirst has no advantage over Steelnado besides a higher base tooltip which is actually kind of misleading IMO.

higher tooltip, lower cost and hits a single target for 5 times in under a second, that is all superior to ST.

Bloodthirst is super handicapped because it offers barely any practical synergy; it can't even proc axe Twin Blade it seems.

what does "practical synergy" mean in this sentence?

Would you ever actually slot Bloodthirst in any practical situation?

no and that is mostly because it is a channel and a channels in general are not used, jabs is used for stamplar because it is aoe, can proc burning light and give the passives from that skill line, sweeps is not used becuase elemental weapon is better.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Doing more testing, I have came to the realization that the last blow of blood thirsty is not scaling like it seems it ought to. Making the skill seem weaker, even though everything I have said in this thread is still true, this means that flurry ought to be doing more damage, in my opinion. See here-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps

Chilly-McFreeze

TBois wrote: »

It also cant proc things like ravager that proc off of melee damage, but steel tornado and templar jabs can

Last time I tested it (summer last year) the final hit was able to proc ravager. But with all the back and forth, who knows how it is now. Also, the final hit is often avoided anyway. Someone should test if Jabs proc Ravager without the Burning Light passive.



Again, this was summer '17