No More Nerfs

Ayastigi

Now people want petrify nerfed?! The range has already been nerfed :-/ You all are taking away every class cc. Rune cage was over nerfed, fear will be nerfed again too, but not before petrify right? Once people learn to use the ice portal on a warden that will be nerfed too. ZOS said they do not want abilities that hit hard and cc as well, that is why shalks and incap were nerfed. That also means at some point in the future that dawnbreaker of smiting and take flight will have the cc taken away from them so be prepared for that as well. Serious question, do you people get deleted in pvp then come running here asking for nerfs. Remember seeing this guy on here playing a 2v5 and was asking for a healbot to be nerfed because they couldn't kill it, but after reviewing the video him and his buddy never defiled, focused the same target or coordinated ultimates..but he didn't see any of that instead just saying "I have 5800 weapon damage this healbot should of died". Also you people asking for an earthgore nerf need to understand PVE is a thing too and you need to think about what you are trying to take away from non-pvpers just because you think you might have a chance at a few more kills (you prob wouldn't get the kills anyway, because if you are asking for nerfs instead of trying to reflect, learn, and adapt it's always gonna be tough for you). People the problem is usually you, most of us overestimate or abilities and ego stops us from seeing when we were outplayed or bit off more than we can chew. If you feel your class or certain abilities are under-performing ask for some buffs for a change. You all remind me of someone who gets punched in the face and then runs to somebody for help instead of trying to deal with it yourself. No more nerfs.

ConeOfSilence

Not even the horse ?

VaranisArano

We do ask for buffs.

ZOS doesnt give us buffs that help.

So we ask for nerfs.

Sometimes, ZOS gives nerfs.

Therefore, we ask for nerfs more often than we ask for buffs. Operant conditioning. We see which one gets us the response we want and do more of it.

Greysson

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

VaranisArano

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Greysson

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

TheValar85

VaranisArano wrote: »

We do ask for buffs.

ZOS doesnt give us buffs that help.

So we ask for nerfs.

Sometimes, ZOS gives nerfs.

Therefore, we ask for nerfs more often than we ask for buffs. Operant conditioning. We see which one gets us the response we want and do more of it.

Your last sentence is clear BS.

VaranisArano

Greysson wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

Morrowind Sustain Nerfs
PVP: nerfed heavy hitting tanky builds and destroyed the Blazeplars
PVE: massively lowered group DPS because players were ripping through ZOS' hardest content and calling it easy peasy lemon squeezy

Nerfmire Nerfs:
Apparently you are ignorant of the times the devs have said it was motivated for both PVE and PVP reasons? Or the way the shield nerfs have gone out of their way to target shields in PVE?

If you think that all nerfs start as PVP, thats only because Molag Kena isn't all up in the forums complaining when its too hard for her to kill players.

PVE power creep causes nerfs too. Its just that players think power creep is great! The devs don't.

VaranisArano

TheValar85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We do ask for buffs.

ZOS doesnt give us buffs that help.

So we ask for nerfs.

Sometimes, ZOS gives nerfs.

Therefore, we ask for nerfs more often than we ask for buffs. Operant conditioning. We see which one gets us the response we want and do more of it.

Your last sentence is clear BS.

So...you dont think we ask for nerfs more because that seems to be more effective than asking for buffs?

Or what? We're just awful jerks who want everyone other than our class nerfed? (Well, sure, there are some people who act like that, but I strongly suspect we'd have more calls for buffs if ZOS handed out more buffs in a responsive fashion.)

Greysson

Maybe the Reason for nerfs come from the PvE section, but the cry babies out there are PvPers. Everytime a new set comes out or anything its the PvPers that cry "Nerf this, nerf that".

So remove PvP, nor more Nerfs.

Agenericname

Greysson wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

We just had one about redguard sustain. There was another one about racial passives not just being nerfed but being removed because x class has more something than y class.

TheValar85

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheValar85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We do ask for buffs.

ZOS doesnt give us buffs that help.

So we ask for nerfs.

Sometimes, ZOS gives nerfs.

Therefore, we ask for nerfs more often than we ask for buffs. Operant conditioning. We see which one gets us the response we want and do more of it.

Your last sentence is clear BS.

So...you dont think we ask for nerfs more because that seems to be more effective than asking for buffs?

Or what? We're just awful jerks who want everyone other than our class nerfed? (Well, sure, there are some people who act like that, but I strongly suspect we'd have more calls for buffs if ZOS handed out more buffs in a responsive fashion.)

i said that becasue if your numbers would be enough like those who constantly demands nerfs against example sorcerers, then porbably you'll all get your buffs. But in numbers sadly the oposite is the true.

Greysson wrote: »

Maybe the Reason for nerfs come from the PvE section, but the cry babies out there are PvPers. Everytime a new set comes out or anything its the PvPers that cry "Nerf this, nerf that".

So remove PvP, nor more Nerfs.

Finaly someone see through this sheet.

idk

After about 4.5 years, not included the lengthy alpha and beta Zos has still not figured out how to manage combat in this game or developed a vision around it. This is clear with the heavy handed changes they often make and that they seem to forget successful changes they have made when confronted with situations that same type of change would have worked.

Greysson

Agenericname wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

We just had one about redguard sustain. There was another one about racial passives not just being nerfed but being removed because x class has more something than y class.

I know, there was one. OP started it as discussion with 2 solutions, one was a nerf. Seems eryone was only reading NERF.

VaranisArano

Greysson wrote: »

Maybe the Reason for nerfs come from the PvE section, but the cry babies out there are PvPers. Everytime a new set comes out or anything its the PvPers that cry "Nerf this, nerf that".

So remove PvP, nor more Nerfs.

Maybe we should also remove all Trials, so no PVEer will ever complain about their class being useless at end-game content again? Edited: not a serious suggestion, as I opppse removing content people enjoy.

Or more seriously, maybe you can accept that:
A. Ever since One Tamriel, ZOS nerfs the meta periodically so that people have to regrind in order to be meta. That applies to gear and classes in both PVE and PVP. Horizontal progression, man. Gotta keep players chasing the carrot of the meta or else they'll get bored and leave.

B. The two major balance nerfs of Morrowind and Murkmire have been explicitly targeted at both PVE power creep and PVP complaints.

C. ZOS devs hate PVE power creep. Power creep leads to old content becoming laughably easy and new content becoming way too hard for the average player. ZOS tries to adjust for this - mini trials with optional difficulty bosses are a great example of ZOS designing with power creep in mind - but ultimately they have to reset the board.


Removing PVP would remove most of the complainers. It would not change the method of horizontal progression with its constantly changing meta for gear and classes that ZOS has chosen to embrace since they did One Tamriel, which was a huge PVE change.

VaranisArano

TheValar85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheValar85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We do ask for buffs.

ZOS doesnt give us buffs that help.

So we ask for nerfs.

Sometimes, ZOS gives nerfs.

Therefore, we ask for nerfs more often than we ask for buffs. Operant conditioning. We see which one gets us the response we want and do more of it.

Your last sentence is clear BS.

So...you dont think we ask for nerfs more because that seems to be more effective than asking for buffs?

Or what? We're just awful jerks who want everyone other than our class nerfed? (Well, sure, there are some people who act like that, but I strongly suspect we'd have more calls for buffs if ZOS handed out more buffs in a responsive fashion.)

i said that becasue if your numbers would be enough like those who constantly demands nerfs against example sorcerers, then porbably you'll all get your buffs. But in numbers sadly the oposite is the true.

Greysson wrote: »

Maybe the Reason for nerfs come from the PvE section, but the cry babies out there are PvPers. Everytime a new set comes out or anything its the PvPers that cry "Nerf this, nerf that".

So remove PvP, nor more Nerfs.

Finaly someone see through this sheet.

By now, yes, everyone's about given up asking for buffs, or if they do, they do so through the class reps and their discords.


So, if the devs know something is a problem in PVE, and the PVPers complain that its a problem in PVP, its entirely the fault of the PVPers when it gets nerfed? Right.

The sign of incoming PVE nerfs is PVE players saying that hard content is too easy.

Agenericname

Greysson wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

We just had one about redguard sustain. There was another one about racial passives not just being nerfed but being removed because x class has more something than y class.

I know, there was one. OP started it as discussion with 2 solutions, one was a nerf. Seems eryone was only reading NERF.

How the OP started it is/was his/her opinion. The comments that followed were mostly opinions from PvE since redguards are a bigger deal there.

The PvE crowd gets fairly vocal when they feel the meta is forcing their choices. There are threads asking to nerf vMA. They're just a different flavor of nerf. They still exist in both playstyles.

What happened to sorcs was unfortunate, but when the devs responded they cited both PvE and PvP for the nerfs.

The point being, pointing fingers wont solve much. Even if they did remove pvp the repercussions of losing that much of the player base would felt across tamriel.

zaria

Greysson wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

Look at the forums. Every cry for nerfs comes from a PvP intention. I barely read a thread about "Meh, class X does more damage in Trial Z than my class!" (except MagBlades)

Nobody outside the top trials guilds ask for nerfs in PvE that unless stuff is serious broken.

Its some complains about magic / stamina but this is mostly related to later trials there melee builds are handicapped but this is more about the mini trial design. Mini trials is also an questionable design. Rather have something like MoL with flex difficultly.

PvP / PvE can mostly be solved by battle spirit and gear design, having proc set general do ground DoT was smart.
And yes players will exploit anything.

usmguy1234

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

So, instead of pointing the finger at zos and holding them responsible for not balancing the two seperately or balancing the game around pvp and then balancing the pve elements around that (just a little reminder that this game was started as a pvp centric mmo), you instead want to cannibalize another group of players? Is it any wonder as to why this game and forum are so toxic?

Androconium

Ayastigi wrote: »

You all remind me of someone who gets punched in the face and then runs to somebody for help instead of trying to deal with it yourself.

Nerf faces.

Ayastigi

Androconium wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

You all remind me of someone who gets punched in the face and then runs to somebody for help instead of trying to deal with it yourself.

Nerf faces.

Faces OP ooh la la

ak_pvp

Nerfs are fine, if they come with subsequent buffs and rebalances. They are needed to stop power creep, and balance broken additions, etc.

I'd be fine losing the (admittedly occasionally cheesy, though also often useless) root on petrify for automatic offbalance so I can actually *** land my now dodgable, now costing, now shorter ranged easily preventable lash without having to spend 4-6k mag on a setup that can be stopped with a single button in 3 separate instances.

rotaugen454

Isn’t the thread title a song by Berlin?

BretonMage

I haven't been here as long as most of you, but I don't recall ever seeing a sorcerer complain the content was too easy. It really has always been rival classes complaining about sorcs being OP. So it does seem that the problem originates from the PVP section. Obviously no one is seriously proposing removing PVP, but I saw another thread about separating PVP and PVE. I thought that was a reasonable suggestion.

Ayastigi

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Isn’t the thread title a song by Berlin?

Haha the chorus kinda sounds like she is saying no more nerfs.

VaranisArano

BretonMage wrote: »

I haven't been here as long as most of you, but I don't recall ever seeing a sorcerer complain the content was too easy. It really has always been rival classes complaining about sorcs being OP. So it does seem that the problem originates from the PVP section. Obviously no one is seriously proposing removing PVP, but I saw another thread about separating PVP and PVE. I thought that was a reasonable suggestion.

Seperation might be reasonable, but the devs seem pretty committed to the opposite.

Facefister

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

"muh powercreep", the majority of nerfs are PvP related and nearly all nerf threads are done by pvpers.

Ayastigi

Facefister wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

"muh powercreep", the majority of nerfs are PvP related and nearly all nerf threads are done by pvpers.

That's just not true though, the past few months the forum has been littered with posts about how OP magblades are in PVE and they need to be nerfed or other classes buffed. The PVE/PVP divide will prob never go away but let's at least be consistent.

ak_pvp

Facefister wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

Remove PvP from the game = no more nerfs = problem solved

Says someone in denial that nerfs are ever motivated by PVE power creep...

"muh powercreep", the majority of nerfs are PvP related and nearly all nerf threads are done by pvpers.

Lol.

All non heavy armour sustain changes. Offbalance changes. Shield changes.** Changes to heavy attacks and light attacks. Changes to CP sustain.*** The weird every class can dd/tank/heal thing (roles don't directly exist in PvP)
All the heavy hitting changes have been based on PvE, yet shitters cry about PvP in the corner attempting to be balanced.
* Around morrowind, heavy was only thing complained about, the other changes were purely to implement usage of heavies/sustain in PvE.
**Crit change to balance it for PvP. They wanted shields to be weaker as to not be effective health scaling of pure dmg stat. Obviously affecting PvE more.
*** PvP has noCP if players feel sustain is too good, and already harder time sustaining since its dynamic and not rotation based.

Specific class changes I can call out too. Nightblade utility, they wanted less healing on DPS morphs and DPS changes like path. This hurt PvP.
DK sustain changes, combustion is only useful in PvE since its rotation based. They upped the dmg of eruption, but then upped the cost of whip to balance it, hurt PvP.

TL;DR: ZOS wants a game where you have to make your sacrifices, PvE is about minmaxing for dmg/support/whatever. PvP you already have to round out your build, unless you are a zergling. As such, many of the big changes that actually affect both sides are PvE oriented. The obvious answer is separate balancing, to what extent it'd work with the current devs+dev time is debatable. Nevertheless, you cannot make false and blanket statements as if PvP is what is ruining this game. Its purely incompetence on the developer end.

Monsieur

The power creep is real, and it certainly isn’t helped by releasing over-powered sets each DLC, which then get nerfed into obscurity.

The endless cycle of buff > nerf is quite tiresome, and we never end up in a balanced state, it’s almost like each and every patch is a kneejerk reaction to something which leads to another kneejerk reaction.

I don’t know what the solution is, but the sweeping heavy handed nerfs have got to be nerfed!

Lokirules

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Ayastigi wrote: »

Now people want petrify nerfed?! The range has already been nerfed :-/ You all are taking away every class cc. Rune cage was over nerfed, fear will be nerfed again too, but not before petrify right? Once people learn to use the ice portal on a warden that will be nerfed too. ZOS said they do not want abilities that hit hard and cc as well, that is why shalks and incap were nerfed. That also means at some point in the future that dawnbreaker of smiting and take flight will have the cc taken away from them so be prepared for that as well. Serious question, do you people get deleted in pvp then come running here asking for nerfs. Remember seeing this guy on here playing a 2v5 and was asking for a healbot to be nerfed because they couldn't kill it, but after reviewing the video him and his buddy never defiled, focused the same target or coordinated ultimates..but he didn't see any of that instead just saying "I have 5800 weapon damage this healbot should of died". Also you people asking for an earthgore nerf need to understand PVE is a thing too and you need to think about what you are trying to take away from non-pvpers just because you think you might have a chance at a few more kills (you prob wouldn't get the kills anyway, because if you are asking for nerfs instead of trying to reflect, learn, and adapt it's always gonna be tough for you). People the problem is usually you, most of us overestimate or abilities and ego stops us from seeing when we were outplayed or bit off more than we can chew. If you feel your class or certain abilities are under-performing ask for some buffs for a change. You all remind me of someone who gets punched in the face and then runs to somebody for help instead of trying to deal with it yourself. No more nerfs.

Fear belongs to mighty whineblades, it will never be nerfed but it might be buffed.
Petrify nerf idea is ridiculous and that comment comes from a reach sorc that can do nothing vs good magdks.


Now rune cage belongs to sorcs, since magsorcs are the n1 targeted class for nerfs by mighty whineblades it got the nerf every dodge blade needed. I can still remember Decimus whining in summerset PTS notes claiming that RC does 9k dmg to players, TO PLAYERS, and whining for nerfs claiming sorcs megaburst omg we die bla bla.


ESO is doomed since 2014, devs follow blindly forum complains. The more they follow forum complains without playing the game the worst the game will end year by year.

Again someone needs a potato for all that salt