Building damage vs defense

bagon

Why is it that in this game building damage is almost not worth it. On my magsorc wearing 2 sustain sets out performs wearing all damage by alot. It feels like you are almost punished for building damage. Im consistently seeing people in cyrodil with all defensive sets on and high hp, winning fights by simply outnumbering people, they can make a ton of mistakes but simply be saved by a large health pool and tankiness, and they can still win the fight by relying on the sheer amount of players on their side. What are solutions to this?health cap? Resistance cap? Making damage numbers more effective? I have never come across a game where so many players stack into tanky health builds and are so afraid to die in a video game.

crazy_catman21

bagon wrote: »

Why is it that in this game building damage is almost not worth it. On my magsorc wearing 2 sustain sets out performs wearing all damage by alot. It feels like you are almost punished for building damage. Im consistently seeing people in cyrodil with all defensive sets on and high hp, winning fights by simply outnumbering people, they can make a ton of mistakes but simply be saved by a large health pool and tankiness, and they can still win the fight by relying on the sheer amount of players on their side. What are solutions to this?health cap? Resistance cap? Making damage numbers more effective? I have never come across a game where so many players stack into tanky health builds and are so afraid to die in a video game.

That’s why. No thumb Timmy’s winning because of sheer numbers.

CatchMeTrolling

Have it wrong, players are building tanky because damage is too easy to stack and as result the average player gets instagibbed by people that know what they’re doing.

smashcats

DKs in all tank mode just casually heal and then reverse slice you, doesn't even make sense, just no chance at all against them

leepalmer95

bagon wrote: »

Why is it that in this game building damage is almost not worth it. On my magsorc wearing 2 sustain sets out performs wearing all damage by alot. It feels like you are almost punished for building damage. Im consistently seeing people in cyrodil with all defensive sets on and high hp, winning fights by simply outnumbering people, they can make a ton of mistakes but simply be saved by a large health pool and tankiness, and they can still win the fight by relying on the sheer amount of players on their side. What are solutions to this?health cap? Resistance cap? Making damage numbers more effective? I have never come across a game where so many players stack into tanky health builds and are so afraid to die in a video game.

Thats the game now.

Learning and actually get good at the game has long past, just throw on a stupid tank build and you don't have to worry about sustain, dmg etc... your zerg will cover that for you. Just attack people with your free dmg from things such a sloads, poisons or proc sets like skoria while throwing out skills critting for 2k and sheer numbers will win.

Biro123

Which isn't any different to what I see small-scale.. groups so tanky that you have no chance of scoring a kill if you're alone - and the only way they do is by a co-ordinated ulti-dump..

IZZEFlameLash

You seem to have it the opposite. It is a lot easier to be a high damage player than it is to be a real tanky player. A lot easier to stack the damage so high into the heavens and survive than it is for you to stack defense and still remain alive.

susmitds

I can build for all damage on my StamNB and be just fine. I won't be winning in fair battles but I don't intend to fight fair in any case.

kaithuzar

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

Sanctum74

Is this thread about building for damage or fighting out numbered because they are two completely different issues.

Building for damage is nice if you want to kill someone quick, but when you run out of resources and have no defense what good does that extra damage do especially when you add battle spirit and resistance that extra damage is pretty useless.

If you understand how to do a basic burst combo centered around soft and hard cc's then you really don't need that much damage so building for sustain and survivability is much more important.

This leads to your other complaint about fighting outnumbered, damage will never carry you in an outnumbered situation if you can't survive and expecting the game to be balanced around a 1vX scenario is never going to happen.

Edit: High damage means nothing if you can't survive long enough to use it.

Crixus8000

In my experience most players I meet use proc sets and get free damage. I see way more people building for damage and procs rather than survivability.

Xsorus

bagon wrote: »

Why is it that in this game building damage is almost not worth it. On my magsorc wearing 2 sustain sets out performs wearing all damage by alot. It feels like you are almost punished for building damage. Im consistently seeing people in cyrodil with all defensive sets on and high hp, winning fights by simply outnumbering people, they can make a ton of mistakes but simply be saved by a large health pool and tankiness, and they can still win the fight by relying on the sheer amount of players on their side. What are solutions to this?health cap? Resistance cap? Making damage numbers more effective? I have never come across a game where so many players stack into tanky health builds and are so afraid to die in a video game.

Its because you can do that on classes like Nightblade and Sorc

Try building two sustain sets on a Magicka DK and killing someone.

Jsmalls

This is one of the biggest reasons I don't play the game anymore. You used to be able to capitalize on players mistakes, and kill them very quickly due to it.

This is no longer the case and their sets let them make mistake after mistake and stay alive.

Beardimus

The direction is only getting worst. Sorc 60k magika no impen yolo builds die with next update.

It's heavy / resistances / impen etc. But we still gotta sustain, in particular stamina, as that's got no better so sustain & defence it is.

Even if you do decide to stay yolo at risk, your damage isn't gunna be great so... What's the point.

It's a confusing time to want to be a high damage high risk build.

Ender1310

I personally like it. No fun in running up to someone dawnbreaker reverse slice I win because I have 70k weapon damage. More time to react/set up burst is exactly what the game needs (in my opinion) and lets skilled players win.

On the other side the bad news is that yeah as solo player its so hard to pick people off in big groups running rapids plus earthgore's and vigor bouncing etc etc. I do see that aspect of your comment.

Its my opinion that ZOS wanted us to have to spec into things that take away our damage so that pvp could be full of counters and counters to the counters.

PoseidonEvil

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

....stop it....

ATomiX96

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

its a risk-reward set, you gotta ramp up fury all the way but then it gives you more than for example 7th legion which can proc instantly or hundings which gives you 100% uptime on 300 weapon damage. perfectly fine in my book. you have obviously never used it, so dont judge it. k thx bai.

susmitds

ATomiX96 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

its a risk-reward set, you gotta ramp up fury all the way but then it gives you more than for example 7th legion which can proc instantly or hundings which gives you 100% uptime on 300 weapon damage. perfectly fine in my book. you have obviously never used it, so dont judge it. k thx bai.

There is no risk in Fury. Troll King, Vigor, FM, class heals got your back. It usually procs to max in 10-20 sec when the enemy on the offensive. If you are using Fury, you are already building to be tanky, so you can eat all the damage you take, while building up ulti.
PvP currently is to wait for weapon damage procs, build up and coordinate ulti drops with your mates and spam AoE as everybody is a tank, you cant solo kill any good opponent. So it is all upto whose procs and ultis fill up faster.

ATomiX96

susmitds wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

its a risk-reward set, you gotta ramp up fury all the way but then it gives you more than for example 7th legion which can proc instantly or hundings which gives you 100% uptime on 300 weapon damage. perfectly fine in my book. you have obviously never used it, so dont judge it. k thx bai.

There is no risk in Fury. Troll King, Vigor, FM, class heals got your back. It usually procs to max in 10-20 sec when the enemy on the offensive. If you are using Fury, you are already building to be tanky, so you can eat all the damage you take, while building up ulti.
PvP currently is to wait for weapon damage procs, build up and coordinate ulti drops with your mates and spam AoE as everybody is a tank, you cant solo kill any good opponent. So it is all upto whose procs and ultis fill up faster.

furys' uptime is only 6 seconds that means if you build up your stacks and decide to go around line of sight your stacks are just gone same for seventh legion its uptime is also only 5 seconds with a 10% chance to proc when taking damage.

And you cant just *** facetank everything so that these stacks dont fall off unless you are playing some kind of troll tank build, where you wouldnt use these sets anyways.

Those sets are fair in my book, but yea 1vXing and smallscaling is sadly as you describe ultidump and hope that stuff dies while you are spinning2win.

kaithuzar

ATomiX96 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

The only reason why people stand back & tank for 2 mins is because they’re waiting for fury to proc & give them 700 weapon damage...
Highest amount any set gives in game, in fact there’s no magicka set that gives that much.

#NerfFury

its a risk-reward set, you gotta ramp up fury all the way but then it gives you more than for example 7th legion which can proc instantly or hundings which gives you 100% uptime on 300 weapon damage. perfectly fine in my book. you have obviously never used it, so dont judge it. k thx bai.

There is no risk in Fury. Troll King, Vigor, FM, class heals got your back. It usually procs to max in 10-20 sec when the enemy on the offensive. If you are using Fury, you are already building to be tanky, so you can eat all the damage you take, while building up ulti.
PvP currently is to wait for weapon damage procs, build up and coordinate ulti drops with your mates and spam AoE as everybody is a tank, you cant solo kill any good opponent. So it is all upto whose procs and ultis fill up faster.

furys' uptime is only 6 seconds that means if you build up your stacks and decide to go around line of sight your stacks are just gone same for seventh legion its uptime is also only 5 seconds with a 10% chance to proc when taking damage.

And you cant just *** facetank everything so that these stacks dont fall off unless you are playing some kind of troll tank build, where you wouldnt use these sets anyways.

Those sets are fair in my book, but yea 1vXing and smallscaling is sadly as you describe ultidump and hope that stuff dies while you are spinning2win.

Idk man, if fury is your damage set, you have a whole other 5 piece + monster set you can build for defense so you CAN face tank everything; let’s not forget s&b blocking w/reduce cost & impreg is likely highest dmg mitigation in game.

So you mess up your fury proc, let’s say something is wrong with you & you can’t animation cancel dawnbreaker into reverse slice or onslaught in 6 seconds..
You tank for a bit longer & try again!
This works amazingly well with line of sight tower farming.

kaithuzar

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is one of the biggest reasons I don't play the game anymore. You used to be able to capitalize on players mistakes, and kill them very quickly due to it.

This is no longer the case and their sets let them make mistake after mistake and stay alive.

You know everyone “says that”, but I don’t know if I believe it. I mean from what I remember things were even more broken with magic DK owning everyone in Cyrodiil, templars blinding flashes having 0 counters & the bats + impulse spam (not to even mention + streak or + ground oils), I mean maybe we have different definitions, but I don’t call that “balanced or fair play or even capitalizing on someone’s mistake I just call that “new cheese meta vs old cheese meta”
#Broken_Differently

DeadlyRecluse

I actually think the game's in a pretty good place for building damage vs sustain vs passive survival right now. Building tanky gives you a bigger margin of error, which of course is going to be preferred in most large fights.

The only thing I think is a little questionable right now is how full damage builds have innately great heals, but I don't see any real way around that without gutting the core mechanics of ability scaling.