Maintenance for the week of May 20:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox One: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – May 22, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) – 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®4: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – May 22, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) – 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)

Wouldn't it just be better to make shields unstackable?

ck37090
ck37090
✭✭✭
It just seems keeping shields strong like they are and having the few options like we do currently and just changing them to not being able to be stacked would be allot smoother and more viable for light armor. Seems like a pretty poor option to cast two or three lack luster shields opposed to one good shield... Thoughts?
  • ck37090
    ck37090
    ✭✭✭
    Kadoin wrote: »
    And what about all the ultimates, armor sets, passives, etc. that give damage shields?

    I would think they would still offer coverage when castables weren't up and have an override for higher value? I just feel it would be easier to balance and far less annoying to just balance a single shield for players and get that where they want it rather than try to balance some people using multiple shields... There is a large degree of difference with players on how well they can do it.. And the really good ones do make them seem overpowered at times
    Edited by ck37090 on September 30, 2018 1:50PM
  • Dymence
    Dymence
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    They want to hammer shields in PVE. Making shields unstackable and nothing else isn't going to accomplish that goal, as you'll still have very large single shields in PVE.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, that would be sufficient, probably, in PVP.

    Alas, ZOS made it clear they have problems with damage shields in PVE as well where shield stacking is far less prevalent.

    So, no.
  • ck37090
    ck37090
    ✭✭✭
    Couldn't they just modify pve damage to do more damage against shields?
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ck37090 wrote: »
    It just seems keeping shields strong like they are and having the few options like we do currently and just changing them to not being able to be stacked would be allot smoother and more viable for light armor. Seems like a pretty poor option to cast two or three lack luster shields opposed to one good shield... Thoughts?

    Totally agree the problem is sheild stacking

    Need to heal cast a sheild that heals, cast two sheild over that to provide protection for the shield till it does it healing, need a damage reduction, cast a sheild, cast two more to protect it instant tank ...

    Now make it so need a heal, cast healing ward, cast another shield and the first sheild desolves and the heal or buff you were getting also ends

  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ck37090 wrote: »
    It just seems keeping shields strong like they are and having the few options like we do currently and just changing them to not being able to be stacked would be allot smoother and more viable for light armor. Seems like a pretty poor option to cast two or three lack luster shields opposed to one good shield... Thoughts?

    At what perspective are you saying that shields are too powerful?
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • ck37090
    ck37090
    ✭✭✭
    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    ck37090 wrote: »
    It just seems keeping shields strong like they are and having the few options like we do currently and just changing them to not being able to be stacked would be allot smoother and more viable for light armor. Seems like a pretty poor option to cast two or three lack luster shields opposed to one good shield... Thoughts?

    At what perspective are you saying that shields are too powerful?

    I didn't say either way...I think they want shields to be less effective... And with that being the case I would rather see them focus on stacking then making you have to cast three less effective shields to equal one...

    Personally I think they need to change the sorc pet to insta cast as well with the heal on cast so it wouldn't have to be double barred and it could serve as a viable burst heal for all sorcs
  • pauli133
    pauli133
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just wish shields would decay, rather than abruptly time out.
  • Emmagoldman
    Emmagoldman
    ✭✭✭✭
    I’ve seen you make several threads on shields and I’m pretty curious to your set up. I really don’t think you know how to play a class that uses shields or understand the mechanics behind it, let alone to the game play that makes these classes enjoyable. There already been pretty good input and suggestions for months on class changes that are better then what has been put forth
    Edited by Emmagoldman on September 30, 2018 2:32PM
  • Hurbster
    Hurbster
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why are they so bothered about shields in PvE ? Who gets hurt by big shields there ?
  • ck37090
    ck37090
    ✭✭✭
    I’ve seen you make several threads on shields and I’m pretty curious to your set up. I really don’t think you know how to play a class that uses shields or understand the mechanics behind it, let alone to the game play that makes these classes enjoyable. There already been pretty good input and suggestions for months on class changes that are better then what has been put forth

    Well.. Maybe...I usually run a front bar burst setup with haunted, wrath, shard and pulse.. sometimes run hardened on front, Backbar two or three shields with lightning form and streak...I seem to do ok... Usually at the top in battlegrounds (but I'm probably not queing elite players) I do well in cyrodiil... If im being honest I would say I am better than average...I would think my perspective would be valid... My posts are based off the fact they want to make changes to shields...I would be just fine if they didn't want to change then at all

    ... And I definitely don't know the game as well as allot of people...I play pretty well and my suggestions probably do have allot of holes in them...I mostly post them to hear what other people think and just get thoughts
    Edited by ck37090 on September 30, 2018 3:02PM
  • Maryal
    Maryal
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Making shields un-stackable would be like making HOTs un-stackable, or DOTS un-stackable, or anything else un-stackable. What I'm trying to say is that a large part of this game involves stacking (whatever). People try to maximize whatever stat they are stacking. It's woven into the game - even to the point of being able to stack major and minor buffs/de-buffs.

    (for the record I don't use shields, don't like the play style, but I respect other people's right to use and yes, even stack shields ... although I am very glad they are critable now.).
    Edited by Maryal on September 30, 2018 3:01PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hurbster wrote: »
    Why are they so bothered about shields in PvE ? Who gets hurt by big shields there ?

    Molag Kena, because she can't kill those shielding mag DDs.

    More seriously, when PVE players find PVE content too easy because of skills like shields or because DPS is too high, the devs have to either nerf DPS or design new harder content that only the top tier players have a hope of doing.

    The devs chose to nerf DPS by nerfing survivability this patch, just like the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind nerfed DPS by removing easy sustain.
  • Universe
    Universe
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but first increase Hardened ward strength by 100% :p >:)
    I Soloed Saint Llothis the Pious(Trial Boss)
    My Youtube channel
    Main character:
    Universe - AD magicka sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, The Trial Bosses Solo Slayer
    Top alts: Genius(Stamina/Magicka Dragonknight) The Force(Stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    ESO player since beta & early access
    PC EU server
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
    Guild Master of "The Champions" - AD AvA & Dueling guild
  • Lorem123
    Lorem123
    ✭✭✭
    Dymence wrote: »
    They want to hammer shields in PVE. Making shields unstackable and nothing else isn't going to accomplish that goal, as you'll still have very large single shields in PVE.
    Yes, that would be sufficient, probably, in PVP.

    Alas, ZOS made it clear they have problems with damage shields in PVE as well where shield stacking is far less prevalent.

    So, no.
    ZoS never stated they were specifically targetting PvE for shield nerfs. Aside for that dumb comment on shields being why healers are not relevant a while back, which they haven't brought up again (probably they realized it was silly). They just want to nerf magicka survaivability into oblivion.

    As it currently stands, 3 nerfs are being made to damage shields:
    * They're susceptible to status effects and poisons.
    * They're crittable.
    * They're being capped at 40% max HP.

    1, 2 and 3 apply to PvP. Only 3 applies to PvE.
    Yet some people keep claiming shield nerfs are primarily PvE oriented? Well, oooook.....
  • Dymence
    Dymence
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lorem123 wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    They want to hammer shields in PVE. Making shields unstackable and nothing else isn't going to accomplish that goal, as you'll still have very large single shields in PVE.
    Yes, that would be sufficient, probably, in PVP.

    Alas, ZOS made it clear they have problems with damage shields in PVE as well where shield stacking is far less prevalent.

    So, no.
    ZoS never stated they were specifically targetting PvE for shield nerfs. Aside for that dumb comment on shields being why healers are not relevant a while back, which they haven't brought up again (probably they realized it was silly). They just want to nerf magicka survaivability into oblivion.

    As it currently stands, 3 nerfs are being made to damage shields:
    * They're susceptible to status effects and poisons.
    * They're crittable.
    * They're being capped at 40% max HP.

    1, 2 and 3 apply to PvP. Only 3 applies to PvE.
    Yet some people keep claiming shield nerfs are primarily PvE oriented? Well, oooook.....

    Yeah, they want to nerf them in both. Real shocker right? Also where in those posts are you reading "primarily PVE oriented"?
    Edited by Dymence on September 30, 2018 4:14PM
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Alas, ZOS made it clear they have problems with damage shields in PVE as well where shield stacking is far less prevalent.

    Do You have a link to this? Not doubting you, just curious to see what they said.



    Lorem123 wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    They want to hammer shields in PVE. Making shields unstackable and nothing else isn't going to accomplish that goal, as you'll still have very large single shields in PVE.

    ZoS never stated they were specifically targetting PvE for shield nerfs. Aside for that dumb comment on shields being why healers are not relevant a while back, which they haven't brought up again (probably they realized it was silly). They just want to nerf magicka survaivability into oblivion.

    As it currently stands, 3 nerfs are being made to damage shields:
    * They're susceptible to status effects and poisons.
    * They're crittable.
    * They're being capped at 40% max HP.

    1, 2 and 3 apply to PvP. Only 3 applies to PvE.
    Yet some people keep claiming shield nerfs are primarily PvE oriented? Well, oooook.....

    I thought shields were being buffed, so that incoming damage now checks against your resistances instead of shields absorbing 100% of it. And now a 40% of HP cap on shields? Would be nice if they raise Bone Shield to 40%! Or does that mean all stacked shields can't add up to more than 40%? I don't play much on test, but I'm obviously missing something here.



    Edited by Jaraal on September 30, 2018 4:47PM
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    To those of you curious as to where I'm getting this idea that damage shields were nerfed for both PVE and PVP, Rob Garrett said as much in his developer comment on the PTS thread for Sorc feedback, prior to the latest class rep meeting,

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409

    Ive bolded the relevant portion for emphasis:
    Hey all,

    Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

    First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

    The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

    If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

    In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.



    So you can see that while the devs have made some changes, reverting the cast time and capping shield health instead, they're clearly targeting damage shields in both PVP and PVE.
  • Rex-Umbra
    Rex-Umbra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pvp shields will be same size as before
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbra IX
  • BretonMage
    BretonMage
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    [
    More seriously, when PVE players find PVE content too easy because of skills like shields or because DPS is too high, the devs have to either nerf DPS or design new harder content that only the top tier players have a hope of doing.

    But isn't it just the top tier players who are finding PVE content too easy? Doesn't this mean that average players will struggle even more to keep up? I think it's pretty unfair.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BretonMage wrote: »
    [
    More seriously, when PVE players find PVE content too easy because of skills like shields or because DPS is too high, the devs have to either nerf DPS or design new harder content that only the top tier players have a hope of doing.

    But isn't it just the top tier players who are finding PVE content too easy? Doesn't this mean that average players will struggle even more to keep up? I think it's pretty unfair.

    No, because PVE content comes in tiers.

    ZOS is going to look at whether top-tier players find top-tier content too easy (apparently yes).

    ZOS is also going to look at whether average players find normal and vet dungeons too easy. "Healers are useless, we can ignore mechanics, and its better to have a fake tank for higher DPS" - say the forums, and then we wonder why ZOS decides to nerf survivability.


    You can see this with ZOS' new content. For trials players, ZOS is doing optional difficulty where groups can tackle more bosses. Asylum Sanctorium and Cloudrest style trials are necessary because ZOS wants there to be a challenge for the very top tier and people below that.

    For dungeon players, ZOS has the DLC dungeons which require respecting mechanics (often to a frustrating degree with one shots and RNG) and require higher DPS to ignore mechanics.

    Both trials and dungeons eventually hit an upper limit though. There is such a thing as too challenging, and no developer wants to spend a bunch of time making content that either only the top tier player will reach or that top tier players will tear through and call easy. this is obvious with trials, but even the DLC dungeons get their share of complaints for being too hard for players at that tier of content. How far can ZOS really push that envelope?


    So the answer that ZOS keeps trying to do is to raise the floor and lower the ceiling. They...dont do it particularly well. The Summerset light attack buff raised the floor for new players who can do more damage with light attacks. It also buffed top tier players who are now getting their survivability nerfed to lower DPS.


    I honestly consider myself to be an average player. I know the game and know my builds. My DPS never reaches the heights of top tier, largely due to a lack of practice at DPS rotations if I'm honest. I mostly stick to content I'm comfortable with.

    So what does this mean to me? It means that if I keep the same old build/rotation and depend on my damage shields like I did before on my MagSorc, PVE content is going to be harder for me. This is apparently the Devs' goal. And I really cant complain too much if I've been having an easier time than intended.

    It also means that if I put in the effort to reach the new top tier, I can still do so. The meta will continue to change and I'm still going to have to put in the effort if I want to go from average to top tier. That means practicing rotations and progression and all that. Its not impossible with the changes. It does mean that if I dont adapt, I'm going to have a much harder time of it. DPS recovered after the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind and it will recover after this too.


    TLDR: All PVE players are getting nerfed because dungeons and trials were too easy for the people doing those tiers of content.
    Edited by VaranisArano on September 30, 2018 7:35PM
  • carlos424
    carlos424
    ✭✭✭
    So what does this mean to me? It means that if I keep the same old build/rotation and depend on my damage shields like I did before on my MagSorc, PVE content is going to be harder for me. This is apparently the Devs' goal. And I really cant complain too much if I've been having an easier time than intended.

    It also means that if I put in the effort to reach the new top tier, I can still do so. The meta will continue to change and I'm still going to have to put in the effort if I want to go from average to top tier. That means practicing rotations and progression and all that. Its not impossible with the changes. It does mean that if I dont adapt, I'm going to have a much harder time of it. DPS recovered after the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind and it will recover

    All the rotation practicing and dps in the world is not going to keep you alive. Youre going to be too busy stacking shields, blocking, roll dodging, and popping stam potions to do any real damage. In order to do any dps you’ll have to rely heavily on a decent healer, which I guess is the goal of all this.
    Edited by carlos424 on September 30, 2018 7:58PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    carlos424 wrote: »
    So what does this mean to me? It means that if I keep the same old build/rotation and depend on my damage shields like I did before on my MagSorc, PVE content is going to be harder for me. This is apparently the Devs' goal. And I really cant complain too much if I've been having an easier time than intended.

    It also means that if I put in the effort to reach the new top tier, I can still do so. The meta will continue to change and I'm still going to have to put in the effort if I want to go from average to top tier. That means practicing rotations and progression and all that. Its not impossible with the changes. It does mean that if I dont adapt, I'm going to have a much harder time of it. DPS recovered after the Great Sustain Nerf of Morrowind and it will recover

    All the rotation practicing and dps in the world is not going to keep you alive. Youre going to be too busy stacking shields, blocking, roll dodging, and popping stam potions to do any real damage. In order to do any dps you’ll have to rely heavily on a decent healer, which I guess is the goal of all this.

    Yes. I'm talking about PVE content, where I'd expect to have a good healer - which ZOS decided to make sure I need a good healer.

    Content like vMA will get more challenging for anyone who,was dependent on the damage shield, like my current MagSorc. I'm actually doing better on my stam sorc with no shields because I cant rely on that to save me and I need to learn the arena spawns better.
  • fastolfv_ESO
    fastolfv_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    i have been saying this on the pts forum for a while now, make shields not stacked and hell cap em at your max health and move on, sadly zenimax doesnt know how to balance a damn thing
  • Lorem123
    Lorem123
    ✭✭✭
    Dymence wrote: »
    Also where in those posts are you reading "primarily PVE oriented"?
    The "some people" was not in reference to you. That part of my post was a general comment, it's something I keep reading here and there but hadn't a chance to comment on. :)
    Jaraal wrote: »
    I thought shields were being buffed, so that incoming damage now checks against your resistances instead of shields absorbing 100% of it. And now a 40% of HP cap on shields? Would be nice if they raise Bone Shield to 40%! Or does that mean all stacked shields can't add up to more than 40%? I don't play much on test, but I'm obviously missing something here.
    Resistances will be applied to damage shields as well. This on its own is an indirect buff to shield size, however in PvP it is being (over)compensated by making shields crittable, and the only shields used in PvE are being nerfed into oblivion because they're going to be capped to 40% (each individual shield).
    It isn't clear whether the 40% cap applies only to conjure ward and annullment or all damage shields. But besides Bone Shield sinergy and barrier, and some proc set shields, no other shield can exceed 40% of your max health already anyway. Nerfing a sinergy and especially a costly ultimate would be *** (well, even more than the other changes already are), but alas.... We'll see in tomorrow's patch notes I guess.

    The changes are a overhaul buff only to PvP tanks, and an extremely dangeours one, because the 40% cap doesn't affect their shields (they simply don't reach that size), and making them crittable doesn't counterbalance up to 50% damage reduction they can get from resistances. So brace yourself for unkillable PvP tanks becoming even more unkillable with their damage shields.
    Rex-Umbra wrote: »
    Pvp shields will be same size as before
    No they won't unless you were running <35k magicka and no point into bastion, assuming an average light armor build.
    carlos424 wrote: »
    In order to do any dps you’ll have to rely heavily on a decent healer, which I guess is the goal of all this.
    These changes won't make healers relevant in 4-man content any more than they are now, because vet content dishes out large amounts of damage in 1-2s. Healers can't help you when you go 100 -> 0 in 2 seconds.

    On the very contrary, forcing people to do something more for their own defenses will simply push people even more in running without a healer to offset the dps loss caused by having to put some focus on defenses.

    It's the content design that makes healers not relevant. No balance change will ever fix that. But in perfect Zos fashion it's the wrong fix to the wrong issue.

    But hey, Kagrenac's Hope BiS next patch right?
Sign In or Register to comment.